Creeds and Creedal Variants, and Episcopal Eucharistic Prayers

[The Liturgist]

Merry Christmas to all members on the Gregorian Calendar.

The Ethiopian and Coptic Orthodox Churches are among those who will be celebrating Christmas on the 6th and 7th. While reading my English translation of the Ethiopian Qedase (“Holies”, the Divine Liturgy) specifically to compare their version* of the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) of the Apostolic Tradition of Pope** St. Hippolytus with the Latin version in the Apostolic Tradition, and two of its modern derivatives, Eucharistic Prayer 2 from the Novus Ordo Missae, and Eucharistic Prayer B from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer,*** I found in the Synaxis that if that Anaphora is to be used, a long and distinctive creed, evocative of the Athanasian in some respects, is to be used. Due to post length limitations I am placing it in the next post in this thread (my source is a public domain book by Fr. Marcus Daoud).

* The Ethiopian version is entitled The Anaphora of the Apostles, not to be confused with the ancient Antiochene liturgy, The Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, on which the anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is based (both are in use in the Syriac Orthodox Church: comparing them with each other and the Byzantine version is interesting) also not to be confused with the Liturgy of Addai and Mari, the oldest of the three East Syriac Anaphoras in common use, which is sometimes called The Liturgy of the Apostles Addai and Mari, and sometimes just The Liturgy of the Apostles, and finally, not to be confused the Apostolic Constitutions, a fourth century liturgy which features two anaphorae, or eucharistic prayers, and is in my opinion the second oldest Euchologion, or Sacramentary, affer the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, an Egyptian bishop from the early fourth century; the former contains a recension of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which together with that of Addai and Mari, is one of two we can date to the second century, making it the oldest in continuous use (in the Coptic recension, the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril).****

** Pope St. Hippolytus was actually an antipope, who was reconciled with the legitimate Pope before they received crowns of martyrdom; also neither styled themselves as Papem, although they were contemporaries of the first Patriarch to be called Pope, St. Heraclas of Alexandria:

As for what to call the pre-6th century bishops of Rome like St. Clement, St. Victor, St. Celestine and St. Gelasius, I usually refer to them as Archbishop, since I am not sure the title Patriarch was popular at the time for the other major bishop, that of Antioch, but rather was not a thing until the Pentarchy (which added Constantinople and rebuilt Jerusalem). As an aside, the Church of Cyprus has always been autocephalous, not under Constantinople, Antioch or any other larger church, making it one of the four oldest completely independent Apostolic churches (including Rome).

*** I have to confess to finding Eucharistic Prayer 2 / Eucharistic Prayer B a disappointment. For example, there was a lovely Christmas service at Old North Church I listened to during the two hour drive between my congregations. The music was good, not quite Church of England but beautiful, the Vicar I loved and want to meet: his Christmas Eve sermon exuded doctrinal Orthodoxy and stressed the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the incarnation of God so much, I am posting a link to the service in another thread. But I was really hoping for Eucharistic Prayer A, in fact, the 30 minute orchestral prelude was not as good as the organ preludes they normally do: I would have chopped 5 minutes off to use Eucharistic Prayer A or 15 minutes off to use Rite I.

**** @Deegie might be interested to note that the ancient Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, whose second century attestation in the Strasbourg Papyrus is even more solid than that of Addai and Mari, also influenced the Egyptian recension of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil***** ( whose anaphora, which aside from being the main Coptic liturgy, is the basis for Rite II Eucharistic Prayer D and its Roman Catholic counterpart Eucharistic Prayer 4, several other mainline churches also have this prayer as it was originally envisaged as an ecumenical standard, including other Anglican churches, the United Methodist Church, and the PCUSA.
***** We don’t know for sure how old either recension of St. Basil is, who wrote them, whether or not they were based on the ancient liturgy of Jerusalem, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, or as was recently proposed in Essays on Early Eastern Eucharistic Praying, edited Paul Bradshaw, vice versa. But we can say the Egyptian version, while still Antiochene in structure, reflects Alexandrian influence, and

Prayers 1 and A the traditional Catholic and Episcopal liturgies (the Roman Canon and Rite I Holy Communion respecricely), Roman Catholic Prayer 3 is a welcome revival of the extinct Gallican Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite which is preserved in something like a liturgical museum (the seven Mozarabic Rite parishes in Toledo in 1911 subsequently Romanized), whereas the Episcopalian “Star Trek prayer” C is loosely inspired by the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil and these two prayers were both intended as primary alternatives to 1+A. Eucharistic Prayer 2 was intended for weekday services, as noted above. Fr. Dean, my retired Episcopalian colleague, used Eucharistic Prayer B in Lent, avoided Eucharistic Prayer D at all costs due to the fixed preface, and used Eucharistic Prayer A from Advent until St. Peter and Paul, and Eucharistic Prayer C for the large block of ordinary time in the Episcopal Calendar from July until the Sunday Next Before Advent (known as the Sunday of Christ the King in the pre-1989 Methodist liturgy, and in the Tridentine Mass as revised under Pope Pius X; the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Presbyterians also split Ordinary Time into two seasons of equal length, Whitsuntide and Kingdomtide, the Methodists using the red liturgical color in the former and the green in the latter. Actually the 1965 Methodist Episcopal Book of Worship, which I otherwise love, calls Whitsuntide “The Season of Pentecost” which is an embarrassing mistake resulting from our use of Eastertide to refer to the Feast of Weeks.

I would be interested to know @Deegie what you think of that approach, and how you use the Rite II Eucharistic Prayers (also, do you use Rite I at all, or “Rite III” which some Episcopal churches have lately been using to experiment with beautiful liturgies not in the BCP, like that of St. John Chrysostom?

 

[The Liturgist]

Now for the unique creed:

Deacon : Let us all say, in the wisdom of God, the prayer of faith. (a) 32. The people shall say : “Amakniyou of the Apostles(1)” 33. We believe in one God, maker of all creation, Father of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, because His nature is unfathomable.

34. As we have before declared (2), He is without beginning and without end, rather He is ever living, and He has light which is never extinguished, and it can never be approached.

35. He is not two or three, and no addition can be made to Him; but He is unique, living for ever, it is not because He is hidden that He cannot be known, but we know Him perfectly through the law and the prophets, that He is almighty and has authority over all the creation.

36. One God, Father of our Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who was begotten before the creation of the world, the onlybegotten Son, coequal with Him, creator of all the hosts, the principalities and the dominions.

37. Who in the last days was pleased to become man, and took flesh from our Lady Mary, the holy Virgin, without the seed of man, and grew like men yet without sin or evil, neither was guile found in his mouth (3).

38. Then He suffered, died in the flesh, rose from the dead on the third day, ascended unto heaven, to the Father Who sent him, sat down at the right hand of Power, sent to us the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father, and saved all the world, and Who is coeternal with the Father and the Son.

39. We say further that all the creatures of God are good and there is nothing to be rejected, both the spirit, and the life of the body, is pure and holy in all.

40. And we say that marriage is pure, and childbirth is undefiled, because God created Adam and Eve to multiply. We understand further that there is in our body a soul, which is immortal and does not perish with the body.

41. We repudiate all the works of heretics and all schisms and transgression of the law, because they are for us impure.

42. We also believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous and sinners; and in the day of judgement, when every one will be recompensed according to his deeds.

43. We also believe that Christ is not in the least degree inferior because of His incarnation, but He is God, the Word, who truly became man, and reconciled mankind to God, being the high priest of the Father.

44. Henceforth, let us not be circumcised like the Jews.* We know that He who had to fulfil the law and the prophets has already come.

45. To Him, for Whose coming all people looked forward, Jesus Christ, Who is descended from Judah, from the root of Jesse, Whose government is upon His shoulder : to Him be glory, thanksgiving, greatness, blessing, praise, song, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.


(1) The creed which the Apostles gave in Jerusalem. This creed is for the Anaphora of the Apostles, for all others: use the Nicaean Creed on page 86 or 173. (2) In Didaskalia. 40
(1)1 Peter 2: 22

* I was under the impression that because of their Jewish ethnicity, Ethiopian Christians were circumcised, so this caught me off guard. Some might interpret this statement as anti-Semitic, but I don’t see it, myself; when the Solomonic Dynasty ruled Ethiopia, the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) were well treated, because virtually every Ethiopian Christian starting with Emperor Haile Selassie was of Jewish descent. When the Derg Communists took over, with foreign assistance, however, and strangled the Emperor for refusing to renounce Christianity*, the persecution of the Beta Israel started immediately**, and most had to be evacuated to Israel in Operation Magic Carpet, which involved some US assistance.

* (this also happened to the Imperial family in Russia; had Czar Nicholas endorsed Lenin, Communism and Atheism he would have been spared, just as the last Emperor of China, who was also a puppet dictator of the Japanese occupied region of Manchukuo during WWII, was spared by Mao Zedong.

** When Communism in the USSR transitioned from Leninism to Stalinism, persecution of ethnic Jews began (Orthodox Judaism and the Rabbis and Cantors were already experiencing abuse like that of their Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic colleagues. Stalinist Communists refer to Jews as “rootless cosmopolitans”, so if ever you encounter that phrase, chances are you are reading far left anti-Semitic material.

 

[The Liturgist]

It might be interesting to post more unusual creedal documents in this thread. I recently found in my Jordanville Psalter the Eastern Orthodox version of the Athanasian Creed.

 

[Deegie]

I would be interested to know @Deegie what you think of that approach, and how you use the Rite II Eucharistic Prayers (also, do you use Rite I at all, or “Rite III” which some Episcopal churches have lately been using to experiment with beautiful liturgies not in the BCP, like that of St. John Chrysostom?

I'm afraid I only have a moment this morning but wanted to reply. Your knowledge truly is encyclopedic! My pattern is to use Prayer A during Advent and Lent, C during Epiphany, D for the highest holy days, and B for the rest of the year. We do not currently use Rite I. I'd be open to it, but it doesn't really fit the parish I currently serve. I do, however, use the Enriching our Worship prayers a few times a year -- usually at less formal services or when I want to intentionally shake things up. The so-called "Rite III" is a rarity, but I have taken advantage of those provisions to create a service a few times for special events.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm afraid I only have a moment this morning but wanted to reply. Your knowledge truly is encyclopedic! My pattern is to use Prayer A during Advent and Lent, C during Epiphany, D for the highest holy days, and B for the rest of the year. We do not currently use Rite I. I'd be open to it, but it doesn't really fit the parish I currently serve. I do, however, use the Enriching our Worship prayers a few times a year -- usually at less formal services or when I want to intentionally shake things up. The so-called "Rite III" is a rarity, but I have taken advantage of those provisions to create a service a few times for special events.

Do you do anything with the Rite II Divine Office?

Only one of my congregations, the more high church one, is meeting this afternoon to commemorate St. Stephen. So I have a lot of time. Christmas Day and the First Sunday After Christmas sadly do not attract the crowds they ought to. The same is frustratingly the case with the First Sunday After Easter, historically known in English as Low Sunday, but which I propose we rename Low Attendance Sunday. The lack of attendance at that service really annoys me because on Easter, we get confirmation of the Resurrection, but on Low Sunday, St. Thomas disproves Docetism by actually touching the wounds and the physical risen body of Christ our Savior. I am considering adding that pericope to the Paschal service so the people hear it, but I wish I did not have to.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...*** I have to confess to finding Eucharistic Prayer 2 / Eucharistic Prayer B a disappointment.

Please expound on this comment. Do you find Eucharistic Prayer B a disappointment in general or only within the context of your worship that day at Old North you described? If you hold a general discontent, I'm interested in why.

 

[Deegie]

Do you do anything with the Rite II Divine Office?

Not as much as I would like. We currently only have an online Compline service once a week. No regularly scheduled Morning or Evening Prayer...although we do very occasionally use it at meetings/retreats/etc.

Only one of my congregations, the more high church one, is meeting this afternoon to commemorate St. Stephen. So I have a lot of time. Christmas Day and the First Sunday After Christmas sadly do not attract the crowds they ought to. The same is frustratingly the case with the First Sunday After Easter, historically known in English as Low Sunday, but which I propose we rename Low Attendance Sunday. The lack of attendance at that service really annoys me because on Easter, we get confirmation of the Resurrection, but on Low Sunday, St. Thomas disproves Docetism by actually touching the wounds and the physical risen body of Christ our Savior. I am considering adding that pericope to the Paschal service so the people hear it, but I wish I did not have to.

Yes, we had the same rather abysmal attendance yesterday. About one-quarter of the attendance we had on Advent IV. But Christ was still proclaimed and the Eucharist was still celebrated!

 

[The Liturgist]

Please expound on this comment. Do you find Eucharistic Prayer B a disappointment in general or only within the context of your worship that day at Old North you described? If you hold a general discontent, I'm interested in why.

I would say that Eucharistic Prayer B is too short except for certain services for which its Roman Catholic counterpart, the nearly identical Eucharistic Prayer 2, was written, specifically midweek services, special services and so on. So if someone wanted a nuptial mass, or for use at a midweek said service, it seems fine. Bear in mind that even the 1549 Anglican liturgy is abbreviated by Western Standards; during my time in the OCA and visiting Coptic and Syriac Orthodox parishes, I got used to the idea of a two hour liturgy, and stretch that out to four in a Coptic church, not counting the half hour to an hour in the Trapeza enjoying the free food, which is common in Eastern Orthodox churches, although at my Episcopal parish the churchwardens always arranged a tasty catered lunch - usually Mexican* (if you show up to a Coptc church for the 1st, 3rd and 6th hour of the Agpeya, with three invariant Gospels each, and then stay for the Morning Raising of Incense and the Divine Liturgy, which has a Gospel and lessons from Acts, the Petrine epistles, the Catholic epistles, the Synaxarion and a proper psalm, and is long in other respects), you will be there four hours. And Ethiopian church services take from six hours to over 24 in the old country, I kid you not. I don’t need or want that kind of length.

The real problem is Prayer 2/B, as I propose we notate it, is taken from a highly abbreviated source*, but is used widely in scenarios where such a minimal anaphora doesn’t seem to cut the mustard in terms of solemnity. In fact, in the Roman Catholic Church, Eucharistic Prayer 2 is predominant at Novus Ordo services, or so it seems to me, anecdotally, in that I havent encountered any others, but this is surely a parish thing; the overuse of this prayer in other churches is probably unfair to the Episcopal Church, but Episcopal Services still suffer from a certain lack of unique identity when the Catholics, the Methodists and the Presbyterians are very heavily using the same services. I submit that to recover membership, Episcopal churches need to cultivate a distinct feeling; the best way to do this would be Rite I, but failing that, Eucharistic Prayer A is traditionally Episcopalian, and Eucharistic Prayer C is uniquely Episcopalian.

*Just as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark is heavily abbreviated as it features only the complete parts said by a bishop or priest, when quoted in the Euchologion of St. Serapion, the Apostolic Tradition, ascribed to St. Hippolytus, being a Book of Church Order, essentially a more advanced replacement for the late first century Didache and Didascalia, is highly abbreviated. If you read the Ethiopian version, the Anaphora of the Apostles, even accounting for the inevitable adaptations to Coptic and Ethiopic usages, and the semi-mythological liturgical encrustation** it is still much longer. And it is a known fact that Cardinal Bugnini wanted a barebones anaphora; the initial cuts were considered excessive, and the draft of what became Eucharistic Prayer was famously written by one of my heroes, Louis Boucher, on a napkin in a Roman trattoria (this story sounds apocryphal, but it is well documented, and stranger things have happened, like when Boeing Chief Test Pilot did this with the Boeing 707 prototype):

** I say semi mythological because these are like the Giant Squid: nowhere near as common or as much of a hazard as once believed, but not, as I suspected earlier in my career, the imaginings of bored and drunken liturgiologists exhausted from long watches in the Scriptorium, which originated in the lyrics of an accordion-and-fiddle song, and later, when it came time to change the capstan grips on the mechanical printing presses, a peg-legged liturgical scholar would serenade the men about these liturgical equivalents of mermaids and seadragons. Then, just as the world was shocked when Japanese fishermen caught a 90’ squid in their nets (which alas I gather was not suitable for use in sushi, because I love squid sushi, and a giant squid sounds as exotic as fugu) and later more evidence of krakens was found, I was shocked to discover real encrustation in the Old Roman Breviary, before Pope St. Pius X fixed it with Divino Afflatu, for which I venerate him along with his attempt to save Roman Catholic church music and restore Gregorian chant to dominance, Tra le sollecitudini (I will venerate saints from almost any churches, and the few that I exclude I think you would support me in excluding, like Christian Science.)

By the way, the various decretals, encyclicals, bulls and other acts of St. Pius X sound lovely to the melody of Donna a Mobile from Verdi’s grandest specimen of Italian grand opera Rigoletto.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I would say that Eucharistic Prayer B is too short..

Then just how would we get to the restaurant before the Lutherans?

...I submit that to recover membership, Episcopal churches need to cultivate a distinct feeling; the best way to do this would be Rite I...

I think you are wrong about this. My experience suggests there simply isn't enough interest in Rite I. My church offers both every Sunday. I have switched to Rite I due to COVID-19. Our Rite I averages attendance of 20 persons, so I don't have to sit shoulder-to-shoulder next to someone at Rite II that is more likely to have 150. All young families attend Rite II. All new persons attend Rite II. The only persons attending Rite I are silver-headed folks like me waiting our turn to shuffle off this mortal coil. I think the Rite I ship has sailed in The Episcopal Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then just how would we get to the restaurant before the Lutherans?

Easy: go to the 8 AM said service that is, or at least was, pre-Covid, a fixture at many Episcopal churches. St. George Anglican in Las Vegas still has it. That service can clock in at 35 minutes in Rite II meaning you will not only beat the Lutherans, but the Presbyterians, Methodists and even the Baptists! You might even beat me, since I time limit my sermons at 15 minutes, so if I am not doing communion and my organist is unavailable, you’re winning.

That said I stretch my services as long as my people will let me. One congregation will sit for 90 minutes, and another gets antsy after 45-50. As a partial workaround, for Christmas and other important occasions, I stack multiple services together like Russian All Night Vigils or old Anglican Sunday Morning Mattins-Litany-(Ante)Communion and encourage the people to attend the services they are able and also step outside between the services.

I think you are wrong about this. My experience suggests there simply isn't enough interest in Rite I. My church offers both every Sunday. I have switched to Rite I due to COVID-19. Our Rite I averages attendance of 20 persons, so I don't have to sit shoulder-to-shoulder next to someone at Rite II that is more likely to have 150. All young families attend Rite II. All new persons attend Rite II. The only persons attending Rite I are silver-headed folks like me waiting our turn to shuffle off this mortal coil. I think the Rite I ship has sailed in The Episcopal Church. [/QUOTE]

What time of day is Rite I and what time of day is Rite II? And how come in several Western cities, continuing Anglican churches on the 1928 BCP are filling up, while several Episcopal parishes are hanging on? Although Rite I probably has sailed, except for the idea of putting Phos Hilarion in Choral Evensong; I desperately wish the Anglican Churches of England, Wales, Ireland, Canada and the Scottish Episcopal Church would implement that. The main reason I am down on the Rite I Eucharist is because the one year lectionary in the older BCP editions makes the BCP more user friendly. And as this article in the Anglican periodical LiturgyCanada shows, the old Anglican lectionary has advantages over the RCL.

That said, Year D looks to me like it would correct the problems with the RCL, and if a four year lectionary cylce seems daunting, consider that while those Eastern Orthodox churches using the Sabaite Typikon* (those under the Moscow Patriarchate, parts of the OCA, and also Serbia, Ukraine, Georgia, Jerusalem, Mount Athos and the non-canonical Macedonians and Old Calendarists) have a Typikon that repeats only once in nearly 550 years, so the same exact liturgy (chiefly Matins, but also the Divine Liturgy, Vespers and the other services) with the same exact hymns has only repeated once, maybe twice (the Typikon was revised around 1400).

But, while year D would work and be a simple plug in to the RCL, the old lectionary is the simple solution.

 

[PloverWing]

What time of day is Rite I and what time of day is Rite II? And how come in several Western cities, continuing Anglican churches on the 1928 BCP are filling up, while several Episcopal parishes are hanging on?

I would have guessed that people choose continuing Anglican churches over Episcopal churches for theological reasons (gender, sexuality, inerrancy) rather than for Rite I vs Rite II, but I could be mistaken.

The main reason I am down on the Rite I Eucharist is because the one year lectionary in the older BCP editions makes the BCP more user friendly. And as this article in the Anglican periodical LiturgyCanada shows, the old Anglican lectionary has advantages over the RCL.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying you prefer Rite I because of the lectionary it uses? In the churches I've attended that use Rite I, the lectionary is the same as what the rest of church uses -- the 1979 BCP lectionary in older times, now the RCL.

I thought you preferred Rite I because you like the Elizabethan language, or else because you like its implied theology better than the theology implied in Rite II.

 

[The Liturgist]

I would have guessed that people choose continuing Anglican churches over Episcopal churches for theological reasons (gender, sexuality, inerrancy) rather than for Rite I vs Rite II, but I could be mistaken.



I'm a little confused. Are you saying you prefer Rite I because of the lectionary it uses? In the churches I've attended that use Rite I, the lectionary is the same as what the rest of church uses -- the 1979 BCP lectionary in older times, now the RCL.

I thought you preferred Rite I because you like the Elizabethan language, or else because you like its implied theology better than the theology implied in Rite II.

No, I prefer the pre-1979 BCPs on the basis of lectionary, and I suspect one reason why Rite I is underperforming the 1928 BCP is because of the extreme ease of finding the Gospel and Epistle readings. However, I prefer Choral Evensong in Rite I, and relatively few churches on the 1928 BCP are doing anything with the Divine Office.

What I really like is the Anglican Service Book, which is a 1994 adaptation of the 1979 BCP into traditional language, including all of the offices that Rite II has like Midday Prayer and Compline, that Rite I lacks (but the 1928 BCP had Compline in an addendum, which actually dates from the 1892 BCP era, being published in 1915, and the 1928 Deposited Book from the UK also had Prime, as did the 1938 Melanesian Book; the 1928 Deposited Book, 1892 and 1928 American books, 1926 Irish book, 1929 Scottish Book, 1938 Melanesian Book, Series Two of the trial services that later became the Alternate Service Book, and which I believe are in Common Worship, and the 1962 and 1979 Canadian and American books are my favorites. I would add Common Worship and the 1994 Anglican Service Book except they are not technically a Book of Common Prayer.

The 1994 ASB is allowed by a rubric in the 1979 book, which allows traditional language adaptations of the services. This rubric can also be used as a gotcha for that group of Episcopal priests who derisively dismiss Eucharistic Prayer C as the Star Trek prayer because it credits God with the creation of galaxies etc (since the rubric arguably allows the specific astronomical language to be replaced with “Heavens”, although I would argue we now know the Heavens to be a spiritual realm in a noetic rather than pnuematic sense of the word) As a Trekkie, Science Fiction enthusiast and a Christian, and as someone with a special connection to prayer C, which is discussed below, and who is into astronomy, astrophysics, aerospace, and space exploration I find those priests who dislike Prayer C really annoying; Ive never met one, but one occasionally finds them on the Internet trolling, which seems unbecoming for a man of the cloth, but I know of at least three “hierotrolls” from other denominations, including a bishop of metropolitan rank (again, not Anglicans); the rules of this forum I think prevent me from naming and shaming them, at least as trolls, and also I don’t think we should fight trolling with trolling.

I seriously love Eucharistic Prayer C; it was in use at the first Episcopal service I attended, if I were to redo the Eucharistic prayers in the 1979 BCP I would just replace B and D with Prayers 1 and 3 from the Novus Ordo Missae. This solves the problem many priests have with the fixed preface in Prayer D, and makes all the prayers of similiar length, while providing new options for Anglo Catholic and Liberal Catholic parishes. That, plus adding Year D and reverting years A, B and C to the Episcopal lectionary vs. the RCL, and a rubric to promote increased use of the Divine Office, are seriously the only changes I would make to Rite II if the ECUSA put me in charge of the new BCP.

* also the Episcopal Church to its credit has become very tolerant of liturgical diversity, in contrast to the C of E in the late 19th century where Anglo Catholics were getting pinched by the Old Bill for daring to wear a chasuble, grave and terrible offense, although one entirely legal under the ornaments rubric as my hero, who I venerate as the Blessed Rev. Percy Dearmer pointed out.

 

[The Liturgist]

Fr. Simmons of St. Matthews Episcopal Church did a beautiful job setting Prayer C to the liturgical music of the Russian Orthodox composer Alexander Archangely:

@Paidiske who is like me an enthusiast of Church Slavonic music might enjoy that. Also Paidiske did I tell you about the Anglo Catholic parish of All Saints Margaret Street in Lambeth, which set the 1662 Communion Service and Choral Evensong to Rachmaninoff’s settings? Also if you havent heard Rachmaninoff’s Divine Liturgy setting, you will want to: I find it even more beautiful than his All Night Vigils, if such a thing were possible.

Also, there are two horrors from the old BCPs, and one related horror specific to the 1666 and 1878 Irish BCP editions, or rather, all those editions that preceded the 1926:

1. Commination, which is dreadful; the new Penitential Services for Ash Wednesday are much better. Morally, I could not participate in a commination, as I believe the commandments of our Lord prohibit me from uttering maledictions against those who violate the same Law I have violated. Also, although its presence is by no means horrible, I favor optionally replacing the Decalogue with Kyrie Eleison, Christie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison and the Summary of the Law, as we see in many BCP editions, or the Byzantine Litany of Peace, given how well Byzantine Rite materiel like the Prayer of the Second Antiphon (The Prayer of St. Chrysostom) and the Epiclesis of the Anaphora of St. James (used in Scottish and American liturgies) tend to integrate into the rite.
   
2. The old visitation of the sick, which rather than anointing them with oil as St. James instructs and newer BCPs command, has the priest basically victim-blame the patient.
3. The old Irish BCPs have a truly nasty service, the Visitation of Prisoners, which has the same kind of content as the Visitation of the Sick. Just as the former assumes that the illness is God’s just punishment for a terrible sin, the latter assumes the imprisonment is a just human inflicted punishment. Given how the Irish courts used to work, especially towards Catholics, debtors and the impoverished, we know many people sitting in a gaol and many people hanged, a terribly large percentage of which were children, this service was odious, and I have nothing but praise for the editors of the 1926 edition who decided to remove it.

Of course my Congregational heritage also had a bad record, especially when it comes to the 17th and 18th century. The English Civil War, the Salem Witch Trials, and failing to include a denominational safeguard to prevent the Unitarians, a different religion really, from appropriating Harvard and at least half of our parishes in Boston. We had a statement of faith we could have required teaching elders to adhere to and ruling elders and congregational members with voting rights to uphold...but maybe we did and they took those parishes anyway. I haven't closely studied it because to do so would cause me to commit the sin of wrath.

 

[Paidiske]

In fact, in the Roman Catholic Church, Eucharistic Prayer 2 is predominant at Novus Ordo services, or so it seems to me, anecdotally, in that I havent encountered any others, but this is surely a parish thing; the overuse of this prayer in other churches is probably unfair to the Episcopal Church, but Episcopal Services still suffer from a certain lack of unique identity when the Catholics, the Methodists and the Presbyterians are very heavily using the same services. I submit that to recover membership, Episcopal churches need to cultivate a distinct feeling...

I am not sure. I recall Andrew McGowan - a scholar of early liturgy, of whom you may have heard? - once commenting to a class I was in that "what is most distinctively Anglican is not what is most authentically Anglican." Being different for the sake of it often moves us away from what best serves the formation of our people.

Also Paidiske did I tell you about the Anglo Catholic parish of All Saints Margaret Street in Lambeth, which set the 1662 Communion Service and Choral Evensong to Rachmaninoff’s settings?

Maybe? I'm a little vague at this point. Certainly All Saints' Margaret Street has a reputation which has reached even the backwater of Australia.

As for things I'm glad to have dropped from the old prayer books, a wife's vow to "obey" would have to be high on my list.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am not sure. I recall Andrew McGowan - a scholar of early liturgy, of whom you may have heard? - once commenting to a class I was in that
"what is most distinctively Anglican is not what is most authentically Anglican." Being different for the sake of it often moves us away from what best serves the formation of our people.

I have to confess I found McGowan’s Early Christian Worship disappointing compared to the work of Paul F Bradshaw and Maxwell E Johnson, as it was more speculative and rather detached from the manuscripts, whereas Bradshaw and Johnson tend to immerse us in the manuscript tradition. His article on Patristics and Anglicanism in the Oxford Guide to Anglicanism was very good however, and for Old Calendar Christmas or Armenian Christmas in Jerusalem I badly want his book Ascetic Eucharists.

So I have mixed feelings on McGowan. This being said, the remark about what is most distinctly Anglican is not the most authentically Anglican strikes me more as a comment about Anglican theology and less about liturgics, or if it is about liturgics, he is wrong, because certain bits of Anglican liturgy which are pure Cranmer are also extremely beloved - for example, the introductions to various sacramental services, the Comfortable Words, and certain original collects. Most Episcopalians known to me prefer Eucharistic Prayer A, which is the Holy Communion service in modern language, to B and D, which are imports from the Novus Ordo Missae, and imports of the arguably the most abused (prayer 2) and least popular (prayer 4). from the Novus Ordo Missae. And Episcopalianism uses them much less than Roman Catholicism, fortunately.

 

[Paidiske]

McGowan is, if nothing else, an engaging lecturer. I haven't agreed with everything of his that he's said or written, but I'll give him credit for making me think. And for being kind; you may recall that I mentioned being kicked out of college when pregnant; it was his intervention that saw me return on more-or-less reasonable terms.

I don't think that his point was to say we never use a form of words that nobody else uses, but more that if we do, that is not the locus of our Anglican-ness. That said, it stayed with me because I saw something important in it; the essence of Anglican identity lies not in emphasising being different from the rest of the catholic church.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Then just how would we get to the restaurant before the Lutherans?

Good thing with Orthodoxy, everyone is clearing out of the restaurants when we finally show up!

 

[The Liturgist]

McGowan is, if nothing else, an engaging lecturer. I haven't agreed with everything of his that he's said or written, but I'll give him credit for making me think. And for being kind; you may recall that I mentioned being kicked out of college when pregnant; it was his intervention that saw me return on more-or-less reasonable terms.

That was very good of him.

I don't think that his point was to say we never use a form of words that nobody else uses, but more that if we do, that is not the locus of our Anglican-ness. That said, it stayed with me because I saw something important in it; the essence of Anglican identity lies not in emphasising being different from the rest of the catholic church.

On that point I agree with him entirely. The traditional Anglican liturgy is a modified version of the Sarum Rite with Byzantine additions and a Divine Office based on that proposed by Cardinal Quinones, a huge simplification on the old Roman Breviary, which I would argue prior to Pope Pius X fixing it in Divino Afflatu, was the only liturgical service I have found to feature the otherwise mythological disease known as encrustation that plagued the nightmares of liturgiologists in the 1940s-1980s, even the greatest liturgical minds of that era, personal heroes of mine like Boucher, Jasper and Cuming, and the Father of Mid 20th Century Liturgics, Dom Gregory Dix. The Dominican, Carthusian, and Benedictine or Monastic Breviaries, among other regional and religious variations, were much better, as a visit to Divinum Officium will confirm (notice how much better the O.P. (Dominican), Monastic, Divino Afflatu and post Divino Afflatu offices are compared to the pre Tridentine and Tridentine). The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Office of the Dead I also personally like, and they are immutable, much like the Coptic office.

Copts, Assyrians, and most Eastern Orthodox and the English still go to the Divine Office regularly, and I attribute that to the brilliant fusion of Matins and Lauds into Morning Prayer, and Vespers and Compline into Evensong (the Copts, Assyrians, and EOs just combine multiple services into one, having the same result). I have read much speculation by Robert Taft, SJ about why the RCC couldnt fill up seats due to devotionalization of the Breviary and liturgization of devotions like the Novena, Angelus and Eucharistic Adoration.

I further agree with the point of McGowan you raised in that the most distinctively uniquely Anglican services I can think of were the awful old version of the Visitation of the Sick, as opposed to the new one which echoes St. James, and Commination, and these are services most Anglicans I think are glad to be rid of. I mean, have you even heard of someone asking for those services? The Commination, I know of a few people who like it on Ash Wednesday, but the old version of the Visitation of the Sick, I’ve never heard of anyone who wanted that. If the Divine Office and Communion were the Cranmerian zenith, I would argue the Commination and Visitation were the Cranmerian nadir (along with the infamous “Black Rubric” which unusually for the BCP, told people how to interpret the service; it is worth noting that it was absent from the Elizabethan and Jacobean BCP editions, only making a comeback after the Civil War presumably to assuage the Puritans).

 

[The Liturgist]

Good thing with Orthodoxy, everyone is clearing out of the restaurants when we finally show up!

Ive never been to an Eastern Orthodox or Coptic church that did not serve at least a light meal after the Divine Liturgy, presumably because people have been fasting and standing in church, and antidoron helps, but not quite enough.. Is that a West Coast thing, or more widespread? Syriac Orthodox churches only seem to do this as part of a memorial service; when a family commemorates a departed relative on the anniversary of their repose, that family usually caters a meal for the parish.

Assyrians also have meals after the Raza (mystery, their word for the Eucharist, instead of Qurbana Qadisha as one might expect).

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Russian seem to serve a light meal. Greeks do more continental breakfast. Not sure about everyone else. It also depends if if it is a Sunday liturgy or weekday or a feast day. A weekday liturgy won't have food afterwards other than antidoron