MarkRohfrietsch

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I don’t wear a hood as my cassock lacks one, and sometimes I wear a shirt with a full white clerical collar (of the style popular among Anglicans and Antiochian Orthodox, rather than the smaller clerical collar which is more popular among Romans) when visiting hospitals and doing that sort of thing. My cassock is actually a Byzantine rason, so it lacks a hood and a clerical collar, but it is more comfortable. I also use a Byzantine zostikon, which is just a Greek alb, and a Coptic one in the summer to match the Coptic combination chasuble-stole. These really do not look that different. On extremely hot days I will wear a grey shirt with a clerical collar and then use one of those handy double sided stoles (red and white, and green and purple) from Cokesbury, which mainly supplies Methodists, but I’ve bought stuff from them for years. They also sell the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal, which indicates either some Methodists like it, or some Lutherans use it. Have you heard of Cokesbury outside of our conversations @MarkRohfrietsch?
No, I have not. I was not all that impressed with the pre-charged communion "snack-pack" thingies that they really seem to be pushing:

upload_2022-1-14_5-6-12.png

Amazon has been our go-to for nicely made, lined, Roman style Cassocks; about $70.00 Canadian each, and we have bought 4 over the past year; also bought two really nice pleated cottas for about $60 each.

Paraments and other vestments I have been ordering from India. A place called "Catholic Liturgicals", we can't believe the price, and there never seems to be much of an up-charge for custom work either. Excellent value, and excellent quality for a very budget price. In stock stuff takes about a week air freight, and shipping is rarely over $30.00 US. I have just ordered a set of green, brocade paraments which consist of embroidered 90" superfrontal, 30 pulpit hanger, two bible markers for about $200.00 Canadian. We already have the matching Veil, Pall and Burse; we got a set in all of our colours about 1 1/2 years ago; and only then realized how faded our paraments actually were.

upload_2022-1-14_5-17-49.png
upload_2022-1-14_5-20-6.png
 
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GreekOrthodox

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No, I have not. I was not all that impressed with the pre-charged communion "snack-pack" thingies that they really seem to be pushing:

View attachment 311037
Amazon has been our go-to for nicely made, lined, Roman style Cassocks; about $70.00 Canadian each, and we have bought 4 over the past year; also bought two really nice pleated cottas for about $60 each.

Are they fitted? The anteri that I'm wearing in my profile picture is about 15 years old and when I was 50 pounds heavier. I'm going to get a replacement but they run about $250 from Alpha Omega Church Supplies.
 
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Paidiske

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I wear an alb and a stole any time there is an impending service featuring a sacred mystery of the church, and during the celebration of the mystery I am fully vested. (I use that term to include those things the RCs, Orthodox and many Anglo Catholics define as sacraments, but not the term sacrament, to avoid offending anyone else; this is also my proposed ecumenical resolution to the disputed number of sacraments).

I'm not sure that would work for me, either. I don't regard marriage as a "sacred mystery of the church," and would find that term quite alienating.

Because the ancient rubrics limit priests to one eucharist per day, my congregations have to take turns on the Eucharist unless one is meeting on a Saturday. Which is sometimes done. Since we appointed ruling elders, I have left scheduling to them, which has added some unpredictability to my life but also improved attendance. They are a useful feature of Congregational and Presbyterian polity, although I suppose in Anglicanism churchwardens do largely the same thing, albeit with less prominence.

I'm surprised that your congregations are willing to be bound by those ancient rubrics. I often celebrate three Eucharists on a Sunday, and my folk would be very aggrieved if I refused to do more than one.

The role of wardens is, fortunately, very carefully defined in the relevant parish governance acts (at least, in dioceses where I've ministered). It would not include scheduling services. Having worked with some very bullying and controlling wardens, I am vigilant about scope-creep in the wardens' power and would not be tolerating that!

As for other things mentioned, I am rather grateful that burse and veil have largely fallen out of fashion here. I don't use them.
 
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seeking.IAM

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... I am vigilant about scope-creep in the wardens' power and would not be tolerating that!...

^_^ I'm Senior Warden. My duties are pretty much relegated to making up the Vestry agenda as dictated by my priest, writing a monthly report for the Vestry, signing checks, solving problems when the Rector is on vacation or retreat, and taking calls from parishioners having their undies in a bunch over some trivial matter. I'm very obedient.:oldthumbsup:

But, I do get to recommend to the Finance Committee any salary adjustments for the Rector so therein lies my power and glory. :moneybag:
 
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Paidiske

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Here, to boil it down to a nutshell, wardens look after property and money; I look after services and teaching; and we share responsibility with the parish council for the mission of the parish. Something like changing regular service times would be at least a parish council, and possibly a whole-of-parish, meeting decision.

I've had wardens, for example, want to quibble with me over how I spent my time (the argument about whether or not attending synod should count as part of my working hours was memorable; apparently because laity do so as volunteers, I shouldn't take a day in lieu if synod fell across my usual day off :rolleyes:), and I've had to remind them that wardens are not actually my line managers. On the flip side, in other places there's sometimes been expectation that I'll made decisions about property maintenance and spending, and I'm like, nope, that's all yours. I have enough to worry about over here!
 
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seeking.IAM

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Here, the Junior Warden is a member of the Vestry and elected by the Vestry, but the Senior Warden is appointed by the Rector and may or may not be an elected member of the Vestry. How is it in Australia?
 
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Paidiske

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It varies a bit by diocese. My parish has five wardens, because the parish governance act in this diocese stipulates that in a multi-centre parish, each centre has a warden, and my parish has four centres. So there are the four wardens nominated by parishioners (one for each centre), and one warden appointed by me. In a single-centre parish, the parish would elect two and I would appoint one. All wardens sit on parish council.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm surprised that your congregations are willing to be bound by those ancient rubrics. I often celebrate three Eucharists on a Sunday, and my folk would be very aggrieved if I refused to do more than one.

My people are coming from a low church background where monthly or quarterly communion is the norm (most Reformed and Methodist and Baptist churches in the US operate on that schedule). Most have no idea why communion is every other week, although the few that asked were interested by my explanation, since it lives up to the promise I made that we will do things the way the earliest Christians did. Paleo-Christianity is a constant theme in my preaching.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, I have not. I was not all that impressed with the pre-charged communion "snack-pack" thingies that they really seem to be pushing:

View attachment 311037
Amazon has been our go-to for nicely made, lined, Roman style Cassocks; about $70.00 Canadian each, and we have bought 4 over the past year; also bought two really nice pleated cottas for about $60 each.

Paraments and other vestments I have been ordering from India. A place called "Catholic Liturgicals", we can't believe the price, and there never seems to be much of an up-charge for custom work either. Excellent value, and excellent quality for a very budget price. In stock stuff takes about a week air freight, and shipping is rarely over $30.00 US. I have just ordered a set of green, brocade paraments which consist of embroidered 90" superfrontal, 30 pulpit hanger, two bible markers for about $200.00 Canadian. We already have the matching Veil, Pall and Burse; we got a set in all of our colours about 1 1/2 years ago; and only then realized how faded our paraments actually were.

View attachment 311038View attachment 311040

India is also where I get most of my vestments from, from that actual website, with some coming from the Ukraine, and the Coptic stuff coming I assume from Egypt, but frankly I have no idea. The price for a full Syriac Orthodox set of vestments, which represents the apex of vesture in my opinion, is under US $300. An equivalent Byzantine set would be $700 minimum.

Cokesbury was highly respected in my youth as the main Methodist supply house, so I find it interesting that they supply the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal. And the double sided stoles were a bargain; I never wear them in regular sacramental services, but in the extreme heat of summer and for home visits, every presbyter needs a set of auxiliary stoles IMO.
 
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The Liturgist

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As for other things mentioned, I am rather grateful that burse and veil have largely fallen out of fashion here. I don't use them

I don’t use those specifically as they are not fully compatible with the Diskos, the Eastern style paten I have to use because of my shaky hands. There are covers that go on the chalice and diskos, and then another cover called an aer which goes over that during part of the consecration. I wish I could handle a Western paten, but given my neuropathic trembling, that is unlikely; given that Eastern priests typically do not retire until they are completely disabled, I figured I would use their techniques to reduce the risk of mishaps, and I haven’t spilled any of the gifts yet. I also use leavened bread, like most Orthodox churches and traditionally, the United Methodist Church and several other American Protestant denominations (they use a specific type of leavened bread which is ordered from a bakery called “American bread”, whereas Copts and Assyrians bake the bread in their churches (the Assyrians regard this as a sacrament), and in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, the laity bake the prosphora, the leavened bread which will be offered in the Eucharist, and in the Russian Orthodox Church offer it during a part of All Night Vigils called the litya. @GreekOrthodox do they do that in the Greek churches? I never saw that, as I never went to Greek Vespers.

I really like that approach and plan on introducing it to my wealthier mission.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Are they fitted? The anteri that I'm wearing in my profile picture is about 15 years old and when I was 50 pounds heavier. I'm going to get a replacement but they run about $250 from Alpha Omega Church Supplies.
Being somewhat on the "robust" size myself, I had to buy the largest they had; took it to a taylor to get it let out an additional 2", took about 8" off the bottom (sleeves were OK), and moved the top two buttons over to accommodate my neck. Made in China, but very well made. Warehoused and shipped from the US; and I think many places buy and re-sell them after a substantial mark-up. This is what we bought for the Elders BTW, Pastor bought his there as well:
upload_2022-1-15_6-25-19.png



https://www.amazon.com/Ivyrobes-Uni...&qid=1642244794&sprefix=Cassock,aps,86&sr=8-8
https://www.amazon.com/Ivyrobes-Eco...qid=1642245021&sprefix=surplice,aps,91&sr=8-2
 
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Paidiske

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Having worn cassocks that were hand-me-downs from men, even rather generously proportioned men, colour me unconvinced about the concept of a "unisex" cassock.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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<Snip>
I'm surprised that your congregations are willing to be bound by those ancient rubrics. I often celebrate three Eucharists on a Sunday, and my folk would be very aggrieved if I refused to do more than one.
Our Rubrics make no such stipulation. Rather such legalistic rules could be an impediment to the means of grace. When I go with Pastor to visit the sick and shut-ins on a saturday, we do a Mass at each visit. I think we have done as many as six in one day; and we both commune at each and every one. When we were first out of covid, we were doing two every Sunday, and those of working at both services, communed twice; as did Pastor.

The role of wardens is, fortunately, very carefully defined in the relevant parish governance acts (at least, in dioceses where I've ministered). It would not include scheduling services. Having worked with some very bullying and controlling wardens, I am vigilant about scope-creep in the wardens' power and would not be tolerating that!
Scheduling services falls on Pastor and Elders. We don't have "Wardens" as such, but rather committees for finance and property, under the oversight of Pastor and Church Council. The roll of Sacristan is a bit similar as I oversee the Altar Guild, and their scheduling as well as the Acolytes and Elders for serving as Deacon.

It would never occur to me to do something out of the usual without consulting the Pastor; who may chose to take it to all the Elders. Likewise, what Pastor asks for, I provide; I am free to share my concerns with him, but I will always deffer to his judgement.

As for other things mentioned, I am rather grateful that burse and veil have largely fallen out of fashion here. I don't use them.

After Pastor made the suggestion that it would be nice to get rid of the over-sized white linen veil and return to the more historic practice, I did a bit of research and found the inexpensive silk brocade veils, palls and burses in India. I told Pastor that I would be willing to buy a white set to try for high festivals (Christmas and Easter) to "feel out" the Congregation's response and receptiveness. We decided to present my proposal to the Elders. Within 10 minutes of discussion, the Elders all agreed not only for me to buy the white set, but that each of them would buy a set of one of the other colours. We ended up with these:
upload_2022-1-15_7-3-12.png

We went into 100% full use from the first Sunday after they arrived, with nothing but good comments and complements for doing so. It also enhances the appearance of our videos, and improves the focus on the importance of the Sacrament.

This was a very wise move for us.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Having worn cassocks that were hand-me-downs from men, even rather generously proportioned men, colour me unconvinced about the concept of a "unisex" cassock.
A compromise is always a compromise. LOL. So true. I think a Chinese "Unisex" cut might be different than a "western" one. LOL. Certainly their biggest size is somewhat diminutive by North American standards.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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India is also where I get most of my vestments from, from that actual website, with some coming from the Ukraine, and the Coptic stuff coming I assume from Egypt, but frankly I have no idea. The price for a full Syriac Orthodox set of vestments, which represents the apex of vesture in my opinion, is under US $300. An equivalent Byzantine set would be $700 minimum.

Cokesbury was highly respected in my youth as the main Methodist supply house, so I find it interesting that they supply the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal. And the double sided stoles were a bargain; I never wear them in regular sacramental services, but in the extreme heat of summer and for home visits, every presbyter needs a set of auxiliary stoles IMO.
Pastor had a purple/white reversible travel stole; he mentioned that he would like to get a red and green one as well... Guess what he got from the wife and I for Christmas...
upload_2022-1-15_7-17-18.png


cost me $20 US plus shipping; about $40 US, and it is pure silk. So Christmas, Pastor opens the package, and surprise; there were two in it. He passed the other one on to another pastor and friend of the congregation. That's good value. BTW, Catholic Liturgicals has "Methodist" stoles with the cross and flame logo.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This is what we bought for the Elders BTW, Pastor bought his there as well:

Thanks! Unfortunately I searched for a Greek style cassock with nothing but interesting results on one line...

upload_2022-1-15_7-55-36.png
 
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The Liturgist

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When I go with Pastor to visit the sick and shut-ins on a saturday, we do a Mass at each visit.

I use the Reserved Sacrament for that, which saves time and lets me spend more time talking to the sick person and comforting them. I just give them a previously intincted particle from the pyx and say “This is the body and blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ,” and then get on with other things, like applying the oil of healing and talking to them.

Now, that said, I do have a workaround if I really do need to have two Holy Communion services in one day, and I actually did this on Christmas Eve, since in the US Christmas Day attendance is pretty low. The liturgical day ends with Vespers, and in traditional liturgics, such as Eastern Orthodox liturgy, vespers can happen in the morning, as @GreekOrthodox will confirm, which is why the Paschal Divine Liturgy in some parishes can canonically start at midnight or even 8 PM on Holy Saturday, before Matins, Prime, and in the Russian tradition, Terce and Sext, despite there having been a Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil that morning.

So, all I have to do to celebrate two or more Eucharists is incorporate a vespers, which in Divine Services by Rev. Hunter, which is the basis for my service book, has four settings which are quite short but for me, the limit is two; I won’t do more than two vespers and two Eucharists during a 24 hour period. The Orthodox have something called a Typika service which is analogous to Anglican Ante-Communion which can be served when a vesperal liturgy has precluded the regular liturgy from being served, or there are variations including one the Antiochians have which is called the Deacon’s Typika, which is basically a presanctified liturgy which can be served by a deacon, and the more traditional Reader’s Typika, which is what you use if you lack a priest or bishop, and also it is the main service for the Priestless Old Believers.

I was doing two Eucharists every weekend before the current schedule was adopted by my colleagues in consultation with myself and others, and one of the main reasons why I alternate communion services between the two missions is I now have a time constraint on the earlier service, and the two missions are two hours apart and the drive to and from Las Vegas is also around two hours give or take, so fatigue is a factor. It would be impossible to serve the complete Divine Office if I did not substitute morning or evening prayer and a litany for the Eucharist at one of the two services. This also prepares the the congregation for the next week and will provide time for auricular confession, which I am introducing on Septuagesima after a few years of preparation.

But if there is a spiritual need for two services, I can do that, like on Christmas Eve and Easter, and if there is a need for communicating the sick, I use the reserved sacrament, and I strongly prefer using it as I believe it to be more ancient and traditional, and it affirms the reality of the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Fun fact: the 1928 Deposited Book which was approved by a majority of Anglican MPs to replace the 1662 BCP, but was defeated by a minority teaming up with members of other denominations (today, the C of E thankfully has autonomy over its liturgical affairs), included provisions whereby bishops could grant licenses for the reservation of the sacrament: 1928 Proposed Book of Common Prayer: Visitation & Communion of the Sick
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks! Unfortunately I searched for a Greek style cassock with nothing but interesting results on one line...

View attachment 311087

I can link you to a really good Orthodox tailor who I used if you give me a bit of time to dig through my records. I feel the cassock and alb are two places where we don’t want to buy from the lowest bidder.
 
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The Liturgist

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Pastor had a purple/white reversible travel stole; he mentioned that he would like to get a red and green one as well... Guess what he got from the wife and I for Christmas...
View attachment 311086

cost me $20 US plus shipping; about $40 US, and it is pure silk. So Christmas, Pastor opens the package, and surprise; there were two in it. He passed the other one on to another pastor and friend of the congregation. That's good value. BTW, Catholic Liturgicals has "Methodist" stoles with the cross and flame logo.

Those are much nicer than the Cokesbury ones; I did not know that Catholic Liturgicals sold them.

As for the cross and flame logo, it has become a liability due to the possible outcomes of a schism in the UMC. Although unlike the Open Hearts, aopen Minds, Open Doors wordmark, I am pretty sure it is not a registered trademark of the UMC, or if it is, it is legally vulnerable due to the lack of a registration mark on nearly all instances of it, and if I am right it could be reused by the breakaway party. Of course, patent and trademark law and intellectual property law in general is something of a black art; I once had a conversation with a copyright lawyer about which of two parties iikely owned a disputed work, and his semi-serious answer was that for all he knew, the tooth fairy owned it.
 
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Here, the Junior Warden is a member of the Vestry and elected by the Vestry, but the Senior Warden is appointed by the Rector and may or may not be an elected member of the Vestry. How is it in Australia?

That's interesting, because in my diocese, both wardens are elected by the entire parish at its annual meeting and are both voting members of the vestry. The pattern in my parish (as it is in many others) is that the junior automatically becomes the senior the next year and we elect a new junior. So being warden is always a two-year commitment. Funny how it's so different from place to place, even within the same denomination.
 
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