Creeds and Creedal Variants, and Episcopal Eucharistic Prayers

[Paidiske]

I further agree with the point of McGowan you raised in that the most distinctively uniquely Anglican services I can think of were the awful old version of the Visitation of the Sick, as opposed to the new one which echoes St. James, and Commination, and these are services most Anglicans I think are glad to be rid of. I mean, have you even heard of someone asking for those services?

No, to be fair, I never have. Even the stoutest proponents of the 1662 book mostly want it for the Eucharist or possibly weddings and funerals. I personally have only ever presided at a 1662 service once, a service of Evensong.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, to be fair, I never have. Even the stoutest proponents of the 1662 book mostly want it for the Eucharist or possibly weddings and funerals. I personally have only ever presided at a 1662 service once, a service of Evensong.

Now I will say the 1662 Evensong is lovely, which is why it still dominates BBC Choral Evensong, except when one of the few American churches with our non-standard preces, that actually has choral evensong, gets picked (choral evensong is depressingly rare even in cathedrals that could theoretically do it, and boys choirs are also a rarity, but St. Thomas 5th Ave. in New York has a really good one).

There is one feature of American Rite I evensong that I wish would become universal, and that is the use of the canticle Phos Hilarion, which opens vespers in the Eastern liturgical tradition, in a position equivalent to Veni Creator Spiritus in Mattins. Now, some English precentors might complain they lack the time, but as far as the BBC recorded Choral Evensong is concerned, the length has been extended to an hour, and many churches and cathedrals omit the Confession, and some recordings, such as one located next to a celebrated luxury hotel connected with Gilbert and Sullivan, feature, not prayers, not a homily, but what could only be described as excessive commentary by the celebrant. And English composers have been creating more and more compositions of Phos Hilarion, and it is unofficially used already.

Conversely, I really wish our American Preces were made to match those in every other traditional BCP edition. The old Preces up through 1928 omitted “O God make speed to save us, O Lord make haste to help us’ whereas Rite I in the 1979 BCP, which introduced the BCP, restored the former, but deleted “...Open Thou my lips, and my mouth shall declare thy praise...” at Evensong, while leaving things the way they were at Morning Prayer (which is much more heavily used than Evensong in the US, in certain extremely traditional low church parishes in Virginia, and probably the reason why the Continuing Anglican movement formed in protest to the 1979 BCP has a majority of Anglo Catholics is that the Morning Prayer service was not substantially altered, although some low church congregations are known to defiantly continue using the 1928 BCP, some did leave, and a number departed with ACNA).

Last weekend I attended during my vacation in Utah a lovely Rite II Eucharist in St. George hosted by the retired dean of the Cathedral of the Diocese of Montana, who was clearly high church, but the parish was fairly low church compared to my retired friends, with no genuflections to the altar or signs of the cross, but the music was beautiful. The whole service was very much like the Methodist services I remember from my childhood. They did use Eucharistic Prayer B; I was tempted to call ahead and offer a bribe if they used any other Eucharistic Prayer but decided against it (I jest or course, as such an act would be literal simony, and I did not even plan on going to the Episcopal Church until the morning of; I had intended to visit an Orthodox mission or an LCMS church whose pastor I am acquainted with, but the services started earlier and the Episcopal church was much closer to my hotel). Also I actually really enjoyed the service, even Eucharistic Prayer B. It seems to be growing on me, perhaps because of my comfort with its classically Antiochene structure, which corresponds precisely to anaphoras like those of St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, and the Twelve Apostles.

 

[Paidiske]

Here the Phos Hilaron belongs to compline rather than evening prayer (although I have on occasion included it in evening prayer).

 

[seeking.IAM]

... Also I actually really enjoyed the service, even Eucharistic Prayer B. It seems to be growing on me...

I am happy to see you are starting to come around on Prayer B, my personal favorite. Keep at it; we will assimilate you.

Prayer B always brings a smile to my face...particularly when I hear the words, "...made us worthy to stand before you" and I look around to see everyone kneeling instead of standing. A bunch of unworthy Episcopalians, we are.

A simple and slightly irreverent view from the pew,
seeking.IAM

 

[Deegie]

Prayer B always brings a smile to my face...particularly when I hear the words, "...made us worthy to stand before you" and I look around to see everyone kneeling instead of standing. A bunch of unworthy Episcopalians, we are.

Yes, that is always pretty funny! My congregation is very much that way as well. Probably over 75% choose to kneel after the Sanctus. A bit before my time, but I presume that's how it was in the 1928 BCP days? I do know that the rubric is reversed in Rite I, suggesting kneeling over standing. I've been in one parish (pre-ordination) which explicitly encouraged everyone during the Easter season to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer. I'm thinking of giving it a shot this year to see what happens.

 

[Albion]

I would have guessed that people choose continuing Anglican churches over Episcopal churches for theological reasons (gender, sexuality, inerrancy) rather than for Rite I vs Rite II, but I could be mistaken.

My first impression, from reading these posts, was that the mess everyone is talking about is the predictable--and it was predicted--result of junking the Book of Common Prayer. .

Churches which still use the BCP have no problems such as are being debated with this rite or that one and settings A, B, or X, etc. And they get actual "COMMON" Prayer with the retention of the BCP. That once was a hallmark of Anglicanism.

But in answer to your question, yes, the change of the Book of Common Prayer for an American book of alternative services back in 1979 was one of the bigger issues that led to the Continuing Anglican movement. That was the case both because of what's being talked about here but also because of doctrinal changes built into the new book.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Yes, that is always pretty funny! My congregation is very much that way as well. Probably over 75% choose to kneel after the Sanctus. A bit before my time, but I presume that's how it was in the 1928 BCP days? I do know that the rubric is reversed in Rite I, suggesting kneeling over standing. I've been in one parish (pre-ordination) which explicitly encouraged everyone during the Easter season to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer. I'm thinking of giving it a shot this year to see what happens.

Standing or kneeling are what our rubrics call for.

 

[Deegie]

Standing or kneeling are what our rubrics call for.

Ours do as well. But what many in the pews don't realize is that the first alternative was intended to be the preferred one. So when our Rite II says "stand or kneel" and Rite I says "kneel or stand", those are encouraging a particular posture. At least so say the folks who wrote them, apparently.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Our last Rector really tried to encourage standing. It didn't work, except for maybe 3 people every once in a while. He left and everyone is back to their knees. Old habits are hard to break.​

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, that is always pretty funny! My congregation is very much that way as well. Probably over 75% choose to kneel after the Sanctus. A bit before my time, but I presume that's how it was in the 1928 BCP days? I do know that the rubric is reversed in Rite I, suggesting kneeling over standing. I've been in one parish (pre-ordination) which explicitly encouraged everyone during the Easter season to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer. I'm thinking of giving it a shot this year to see what happens.

Fun fact: under Canon XX of the Council of Nicea, kneeling is prohibited in Eastertide and on every Sunday. I would explain that to the people and encourage kneeling, or even a full Eastern metanion, for those who wanted, on services at other times, especially in Lent, but right now my people don’t yet meet on weekdays and they are inclined to stand, but not kneel. I have increased their churchmanship however; I have delivered well regarded sermons on the relationship between Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary and I have included prayers for departed loved ones in the services, by quoting CS Lewis, among other things. Occasionally, when upgrading a service, this requires almost pausing the liturgy to explain why, injecting explanatory notes as if it were one of my ChristianForums.com posts with their nested footnotes, and I really don’t want to do that in the liturgy, but I also don’t want confused laity walking out on me. As a result, some of the services are more annotated than I would prefer, and also I have put explanations of some of the things we do along with scripture references in the bulletins.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, I have to confess, I dislike responsorial reading of the Psalms except at Anglican said services. I prefer they be chanted. The best system of chanting the Psalms specifically that we currently have in any Protestant tradition is Anglican chant, and there are instructions on how to do it in some of my Lutheran hymnals and the 1965 Methodist hymnal. However, it is still hard for a congregation. The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America believes in A Capella Exclusive Psalmody, and they have set the Psalms to popular hymn tunes, and I bought several copies of these Psalters, and one congregation is using them.

Also, there is a form of West Syriac responsorial chant that is extremely simple, and a related form of Armenian chant; we are in the other congregation using the West Syriac form.

The two missions vary in that one of them is seriously impoverished and has miserable people, and the other is in a nicer community.

 

[Paidiske]

Occasionally, when upgrading a service, this requires almost pausing the liturgy to explain why, injecting explanatory notes as if it were one of my ChristianForums.com posts with their nested footnotes, and I really don’t want to do that in the liturgy, but I also don’t want confused laity walking out on me. As a result, some of the services are more annotated than I would prefer, and also I have put explanations of some of the things we do along with scripture references in the bulletins.

What I have very occasionally seen done, and I have pondered doing so myself, is to have a service without a sermon as such, but done as a "teaching service," where the celebrant basically explains much of the liturgy as it goes. Right from the beginning, as in explaining what an alb is, what it represents, and so on as they vest, and giving a commentary right through the service. One parish I knew used to make a point of doing that once a year.

 

[The Liturgist]

What I have very occasionally seen done, and I have pondered doing so myself, is to have a service without a sermon as such, but done as a "teaching service," where the celebrant basically explains much of the liturgy as it goes. Right from the beginning, as in explaining what an alb is, what it represents, and so on as they vest, and giving a commentary right through the service. One parish I knew used to make a point of doing that once a year.

I like that. I don’t know if it would work for my people, because the set of attendees in the impoverished community is unstable even though on the whole it is growing, aside from the older people, and also I have some people who seem to have memory problems.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Fun fact: under Canon XX of the Council of Nicea, kneeling is prohibited in Eastertide and on every Sunday. I would explain that to the people ...

Yep. That would be the same strategy tried by my last Rector. Stubborn Episcopalians.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yep. That would be the same strategy tried by my last Rector. Stubborn Episcopalians.

Well, the penalty for violating canon XX is excommunication, which is to say, being refused communion until one complies, as opposed to anathema, if memory serves, but somehow I doubt Episcopal canon law would let you do it, unless you still have the Church of England BCP’s rubrical authority granted to priests to “repulse a notorious evil liver” and you wanted to attempt to use that to enforce standing.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

priests to “repulse a notorious evil liver” and you wanted to attempt to use that to enforce standing.

My liver isnt evil as it processes alcohol

 

[The Liturgist]

My liver isnt evil as it processes alcohol

I can picture the enraged vicar shouting at me now, attired in cassock, surplice and black tippet “No gallblader? Thou art repulsive, and henceforth I repulse thee!”

By the way, that’s what the vestments I am referring to look like, and I own a set and use it for Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer when there is not a Eucharist.

Now, that said, I’ve seen European priests as well as presbyters of the Hungarian Reformed churches in the United Church of Christ, which are among the last traditional parishes left in the UCC, wear these beautiful preaching tabs which are embroidered green, like the liturgical color, and it occurred to me, a friend I know who makes clothes, who did my leather jacket which I wear when in civilian attire (I would never wear it over a shirt with a clerical collar), could prepare a set for me in the different liturgical colors, and these could be worn over a cassock, and this would be more in keeping with Congregational heritage as a member of the Black Robed Regiment).

But at present, much of the time I do vest like an Anglican.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...But at present, much of the time I do vest like an Anglican.

First Eucharistic Prayer B, now this. We will assimilate you.

 

[The Liturgist]

First Eucharistic Prayer B, now this. We will assimilate you.

I’ve never seen an Episcopalian priest wearing a cassock, surplice and tippet. I believe they exist, in some places, but most Episcopal priests I encounter vest like Roman Catholics.

Also I use Coptic vestments at one of my parishes in the summer, without a cope, as they weigh less.

 

[Shane R]

The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America believes in A Capella Exclusive Psalmody, and they have set the Psalms to popular hymn tunes, and I bought several copies of these Psalters, and one congregation is using them.

A doctoral student from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church made such a Psalter to complete his program at our seminary. The problem with such projects is the definition of popular music. The bishop gave permission for parishes to use the book as a supplement to the hymnal. My old organist had an extensive choir background and thought it would be wonderful. The problem was, 90% of the congregation didn't know the tunes. Most of them were 19th century folk songs. Let's sing Psalm 86 to the tune of Turkey in the Straw. It was worse than trying to pull off a double chant.