Creations.

[Holoman]

Yes an incredible story. Bur not unusual.

10 Resurrected Religious Figures.

Gods who were resurrected. Even Christians sites try hard to find differences to prove Jesus was unique. The Internet is a great place to learn how easy it is to destroy an argument. Pity they didn't have it 2,000 years ago.

Why do you need to believe in the bible? Only you can answer that, start by telling us what if gives you, that I'm not getting. I'm retired, self made man, married, family and love everything that doesn't hurt me. Faced death in the face once personally and once with my wife facing death. Didn't need god to get us through it, we're both strong willed people. We saved ourselves, with the help of doctors. I don't need to believe.

Hmm, most of those examples aren't real people, they are gods. One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person.

As to what Christianity gives you that you're not getting, well it gives you a relationship with God, which if Christianity is correct will give you an eternity of unimaginable joy and love. You can't save yourself from death forever, only God can. It isn't about being strong willed or coping with things. That's what atheists don't seem to understand. My faith doesn't really give me much relief from fear, of death or pain and suffering. Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death. Unfortunately there was no other way. The prospect of living forever scares me just as much as dying if I'm honest.

 

[Holoman]

According to christians, god chose an insignificant tribe as his "chosen people". He then sent his son to save that chosen people, not start a new religion. This is either a failing of wanting to save people, or no intention to.

As for giving us free will then getting upset and punishing us for using it. Well that makes no sense.

Why lightning bolts, why not a son who came down to convert the most powerful and remained with us as evidence? Jesus failed to convince anyone in power.

That's not strictly true. Yes God chose an otherwise insignificant tribe to be his chosen people for a specific time period, but Jesus came to save everyone, not just the chosen people. It was in fact those chosen people that executed him!

I also don't think God gets upset and punishes people, that is just one way of looking at it. The other way to look at it is that God saw the horrific things people were doing for hundreds of years and finally said enough was enough. He intervened to end that suffering and put humanity back on track. That's exactly the sort of thing you have been arguing God should be doing, yet when he has done it for example with the Canaanites (who were a far worse tribe than the likes of ISIS) you accuse him of being a petty and vindictive. There is a disconnect here in your arguments.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Hmm, most of those examples aren't real people, they are gods. One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person.

As to what Christianity gives you that you're not getting, well it gives you a relationship with God, which if Christianity is correct will give you an eternity of unimaginable joy and love. You can't save yourself from death forever, only God can. It isn't about being strong willed or coping with things. That's what atheists don't seem to understand. My faith doesn't really give me much relief from fear, of death or pain and suffering. Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death. Unfortunately there was no other way. The prospect of living forever scares me just as much as dying if I'm honest.

"One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person." - I'm not so sure. I have reasons why I doubt Jesus was a real person in any meaningful sense - but this is not the thread to debate that.

"Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death" - Isn't that Mark's account? As I recall John has him pretty much has him pretty passive throughout.

"Unfortunately there was no other way" So you don't believe the deity to be all powerful then but one that is constrained in some way?

 

[Holoman]

"One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person." - I'm not so sure. I have reasons why I doubt Jesus was a real person in any meaningful sense - but this is not the thread to debate that.

Not sure what you mean by 'in any meaningful sense', I see it as a simple true or false statement.

"Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death" - Isn't that Mark's account? As I recall John has him pretty much has him pretty passive throughout.

No it was in Matthew, Mark and Luke. I always find John a little more 'rose-tinted' if I can say that without getting into trouble

"Unfortunately there was no other way" So you don't believe the deity to be all powerful then but one that is constrained in some way?

I will preface my answer with the disclaimer that what I'm about to say is just my opinion and not some official teaching. I don't believe God is all powerful in the sense that he can defy logic, so he cannot make true two contradictory statements. For example he cannot make a stone both yellow and green, as the two contradict one another.

So of course God could have found another way, he could have come crashing down from heaven, saved Jesus and told everyone to kneel before him and repent. But I believe God values the free will of man a lot, and that there was no way of saving humanity other than Jesus dying that did not contradict man truly having free will.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Not sure what you mean by 'in any meaningful sense', I see it as a simple true or false statement.



No it was in Matthew, Mark and Luke. I always find John a little more 'rose-tinted' if I can say that without getting into trouble



I will preface my answer with the disclaimer that what I'm about to say is just my opinion and not some official teaching. I don't believe God is all powerful in the sense that he can defy logic, so he cannot make true two contradictory statements. For example he cannot make a stone both yellow and green, as the two contradict one another.

So of course God could have found another way, he could have come crashing down from heaven, saved Jesus and told everyone to kneel before him and repent. But I believe God values the free will of man a lot, and that there was no way of saving humanity other than Jesus dying that did not contradict man truly having free will.

"Not sure what you mean by 'in any meaningful sense', I see it as a simple true or false statement." My belief (and it's only my belief, I may be wrong) is that most of the actions attributed to him are fabrications designed to either construct a hero's journey narrative and/or to impart a moral message, eg, the "throw the first stone" (which I understand even believers know to be a much later addition), the temptation in the 40 days story, the guiding star birth, etc. It's possible that some actions are based on an actual person, or perhaps a number of actual people.

It's entirely possible that a preacher said some of the sermon on the mount sayings, for example, which have been incorporated into the overall narrative, so in a sense they were based on an actual person, but not in a meaningful sense of it being part of a single persons story.

So from my point of view it isn't really a true/false statement but I hope the above clarifies my position. Again I'll freely admit I may be wrong, but after reading a lot on the subject that's the conclusion I have come to.

But I believe God values the free will of man a lot, and that there was no way of saving humanity other than Jesus dying that did not contradict man truly having free will. I think I replied to another thread on this, but a face to face contact with the deity in question doesn't appear to affect free will at all. Take the Satan character for example - had a face to face contact and chose to not agree with him. Free will not impinged. Additionally there's the whole trinity thing where Jesus, who is also God, interacted freely with people unless the god powers were somehow muted when in the avatar stage. The whole fully human and fully divine spin seems to be a bit far fetched.

The more simple question is why go through the rather gruesome cruxification thing at all? It seems to me more indicative of a symbolic gesture that would satisfy the people of the time and their need for a good story - when dying and rising gods were popular. - see response to first point.

 

[juvenissun]

Why do you need to believe in the bible? Only you can answer that, start by telling us what if gives you, that I'm not getting. I'm retired, self made man, married, family and love everything that doesn't hurt me. Faced death in the face once personally and once with my wife facing death. Didn't need god to get us through it, we're both strong willed people. We saved ourselves, with the help of doctors. I don't need to believe.

For one thing: You have no hope to your future. Are you really going to be nothing after the death? Is that a fair consequence to your life-time effort?

For the second thing: You do not have a standing fast standard in your mind. Everything could change under circumstances. Even to the existence of god, you are not sure about it (otherwise, you won't be in this forum).

I think for a retired person, these two discoveries are very discouraging.
When you can, go to a (Baptist) church on Sunday morning.

 

[paulm50]

Hmm, most of those examples aren't real people, they are gods. One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person.

Most. For Jesus to be considered divine, a god, or son of god. He had to fulfil certain prophecies. I agree though, he was only a real person, unable to convert the most important man in his life and the life of the Jews.

As to what Christianity gives you that you're not getting, well it gives you a relationship with God, which if Christianity is correct will give you an eternity of unimaginable joy and love. You can't save yourself from death forever, only God can. It isn't about being strong willed or coping with things. That's what atheists don't seem to understand. My faith doesn't really give me much relief from fear, of death or pain and suffering. Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death. Unfortunately there was no other way. The prospect of living forever scares me just as much as dying if I'm honest.[/QUOTE]Any religion worth it's being has to promise an afterlife to the troops it sends into battle, to those who have nothing, and asked to give more to the church.

So why is Christianity, with all it's different versions the only way into this afterlife? I'm assuming all the Christians who claim their sect of Christianity is the only right one. Are lying. I must tell that to the Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Joshua Witness followers who keep telling me only they have it right. Much like the Catholics did with anyone who disagreed.

That's not strictly true. Yes God chose an otherwise insignificant tribe to be his chosen people for a specific time period, but Jesus came to save everyone, not just the chosen people. It was in fact those chosen people that executed him!

I also don't think God gets upset and punishes people, that is just one way of looking at it. The other way to look at it is that God saw the horrific things people were doing for hundreds of years and finally said enough was enough. He intervened to end that suffering and put humanity back on track. That's exactly the sort of thing you have been arguing God should be doing, yet when he has done it for example with the Canaanites (who were a far worse tribe than the likes of ISIS) you accuse him of being a petty and vindictive. There is a disconnect here in your arguments.

Then he was in the wrong place to convert everyone.

As for god intervening to end that suffering and put humanity back on track, did he fail? As for your excuse on killing the Canaanite. That's wrong, read the bible.

"One thing we can be sure about was that Jesus was a real person." - I'm not so sure. I have reasons why I doubt Jesus was a real person in any meaningful sense - but this is not the thread to debate that.

"Even Jesus was afraid of death, when he went to pray on the eve of his death and begged God to find another way and spare him death" - Isn't that Mark's account? As I recall John has him pretty much has him pretty passive throughout.

"Unfortunately there was no other way" So you don't believe the deity to be all powerful then but one that is constrained in some way?

If Jesus was divine, converting Pilate or getting down from the cross then converting everyone. Would of had a bigger effect than the resurrection. Appearing in Rome and converting the leaders of Rome, would of saved 350 years of hard work.

As you say Jesus was constrained by being mortal. He's actually quoted as being here to save Jews, not the rest of us.

As a mortal his achievements are unprecedented. As a god for all, they fall short. I hold a god who can create the world, flood it, inflict plagues, destroy cities, walls, etc. Powerful enough to know if one needs to convert all the people, one has to go to the engine. The the rear carriage.

At the time of Adam and Eve, Mesopotamia was the place to be. But that wasn't the first real birth of religion, that goes a lot further back. And even they were just to construct building to maintain existing religions. Paleolithic religion.

Either god created all these, or man did.

 

[paulm50]

For one thing: You have no hope to your future. Are you really going to be nothing after the death? Is that a fair consequence to your life-time effort?

Yes, absolutely. so rather than spend my life devoted to nothing. I'm devoting it to my family, the people I love, my happiness here. This isn't a rehearsal.

For the second thing: You do not have a standing fast standard in your mind. Everything could change under circumstances. Even to the existence of god, you are not sure about it (otherwise, you won't be in this forum).

I'm all ears, try to prove god to me. I'm more open than you think and have absolutely no blind faith.

I think for a retired person, these two discoveries are very discouraging.
When you can, go to a (Baptist) church on Sunday morning.

Why do you think overcoming two "death sentences" (bit of an exaggeration) are discouraging? I look on them as achievements. What would a church give me? I would rather go and enjoy myself.

Obviously the church gives you something you need. Something missing in your life, maybe fear of death. I just think the lights go out and there's nothing. Did you ever wonder what it would be like as your heart stop pumping, the brain carries on working and you see no light at the end of no tunnel. You might of wasted your life believing in something that wasn't true? Most religions promise an afterlife, is yours the only right one?

 

[Holoman]

"Not sure what you mean by 'in any meaningful sense', I see it as a simple true or false statement." My belief (and it's only my belief, I may be wrong) is that most of the actions attributed to him are fabrications designed to either construct a hero's journey narrative and/or to impart a moral message, eg, the "throw the first stone" (which I understand even believers know to be a much later addition), the temptation in the 40 days story, the guiding star birth, etc. It's possible that some actions are based on an actual person, or perhaps a number of actual people.

It's entirely possible that a preacher said some of the sermon on the mount sayings, for example, which have been incorporated into the overall narrative, so in a sense they were based on an actual person, but not in a meaningful sense of it being part of a single persons story.

So from my point of view it isn't really a true/false statement but I hope the above clarifies my position. Again I'll freely admit I may be wrong, but after reading a lot on the subject that's the conclusion I have come to.

But I believe God values the free will of man a lot, and that there was no way of saving humanity other than Jesus dying that did not contradict man truly having free will. I think I replied to another thread on this, but a face to face contact with the deity in question doesn't appear to affect free will at all. Take the Satan character for example - had a face to face contact and chose to not agree with him. Free will not impinged. Additionally there's the whole trinity thing where Jesus, who is also God, interacted freely with people unless the god powers were somehow muted when in the avatar stage. The whole fully human and fully divine spin seems to be a bit far fetched.

The more simple question is why go through the rather gruesome cruxification thing at all? It seems to me more indicative of a symbolic gesture that would satisfy the people of the time and their need for a good story - when dying and rising gods were popular. - see response to first point.

Would you make up a load of lies, write it down and proclaim a fraud as the son of God, then when arrested and beaten for spreading these lies, rather than just stop and live the rest of your life you carry on, and go willingly to your death rsther than just admit the truth? Can't say I would. And that's just one person, multiply this conspiracy by the hundreds and surely one of these people would have just admitted it was all made up, its not like Muhammed claiming to have spoken to God which you can't really refute if they insist, this was a statement of fact that would have been quite clear to people in the know whether it was true or false. It's a bit like the people that think the US was behind the twin towers attack, so many people would have had to be involved, surely one of them would have spilled the beans.

Why crucifixion you ask, maybe a quick beheading could have been arranged? Well maybe, but it shows us that God does not spare himself the suffering all humans go through at some point in their life.

 

[Holoman]

Obviously the church gives you something you need. Something missing in your life, maybe fear of death. I just think the lights go out and there's nothing. Did you ever wonder what it would be like as your heart stop pumping, the brain carries on working and you see no light at the end of no tunnel. You might of wasted your life believing in something that wasn't true? Most religions promise an afterlife, is yours the only right one?

At the bottom line, being a Christian is about living two commandments, love God and love your neighbour as yourself. If I waste my life and it is all a lie, then I can at least say I tried to show other people love and compassion and made a difference to their lives. I don't have the morals of a Christian because I believe in God, its the other way around, I believe in Jesus in part because I agree with his moral teachings.

Christianity makes me personally take action on my moral beliefs, giving to charity and helping others. Before I was a Christian I lived by the motto of survival of the fittest, I do whatever is best for me and hope in the grand scheme of things everything works out better. Such a view is perfectly justified if there is no God. If it's all untrue then at least it has made me a better person.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

At the bottom line, being a Christian is about living two commandments, love God and love your neighbour as yourself. If I waste my life and it is all a lie, then I can at least say I tried to show other people love and compassion and made a difference to their lives. I don't have the morals of a Christian because I believe in God, its the other way around, I believe in Jesus in part because I agree with his moral teachings.

Christianity makes me personally take action on my moral beliefs, giving to charity and helping others. Before I was a Christian I lived by the motto of survival of the fittest, I do whatever is best for me and hope in the grand scheme of things everything works out better. Such a view is perfectly justified if there is no God. If it's all untrue then at least it has made me a better person.

Good for you. But hopefully you recognise that not everyone needs the crutch of religion in order to do good.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Would you make up a load of lies, write it down and proclaim a fraud as the son of God, then when arrested and beaten for spreading these lies, rather than just stop and live the rest of your life you carry on, and go willingly to your death rsther than just admit the truth? Can't say I would. And that's just one person, multiply this conspiracy by the hundreds and surely one of these people would have just admitted it was all made up, its not like Muhammed claiming to have spoken to God which you can't really refute if they insist, this was a statement of fact that would have been quite clear to people in the know whether it was true or false. It's a bit like the people that think the US was behind the twin towers attack, so many people would have had to be involved, surely one of them would have spilled the beans.

Why crucifixion you ask, maybe a quick beheading could have been arranged? Well maybe, but it shows us that God does not spare himself the suffering all humans go through at some point in their life.

"Would you make up a load of lies, write it down " - you mean like Mormons or Sikhs or Islam or, etc, etc, did?

Again there are no first hand accounts of the actions - we only have a narrative from a time when religious authority was important and there were many stories being used to bolster many different religions and beliefs. That's pretty much it. As for going to your death for belief there are many examples of just how powerful a good belief can be - look at the middle east today, take Jim Jones in the 70's, etc etc..

Can't say I would - me neither,


multiply this conspiracy by the hundreds and surely one of these people would have just admitted it was all made up
Not necessarily - again look at all the other religions for the power of belief and the power of wanting to believe. I'd argue against the word conspiracy though - that implies something dark which I don't think was the case at all. I think it was just another attempt at a dying and rising religion - one that's done rather well for itself.

"this was a statement of fact that would have been quite clear to people in the know whether it was true or false" Again you have to look at what seems plausible. We have Mark's narrative, written a couple of generations after the fact, copied and embellished by other writers later, some of which were thought to be so outlandish as to not make it into the canon at all. Then we have Paul, admittedly writing closer to the time, but who seems to think the Jesus character was a spiritual one rather than an earthly one. Discerning truth from fiction from that is difficult if not impossible. And that's where faith, in the religious sense, is needed.

"It's a bit like the people that think the US was behind the twin towers attack, so many people would have had to be involved, surely one of them would have spilled the beans". This is an interesting analogy because even with the massive cover up that would be needed, and the general ridiculousness of it all, people STILL BELIEVE. Just look at the conspiracy threads on this site for some idea of what people believe.

"Why crucifixion you ask" - Again I'll refer you to the need for a good story. A sensible deity would just grant the forgiveness but why act out this dying and rising scene unless the need for a spectacle (in the literal sense) that would impress the populace and make a good story. Back to that need for a good story again.

 

[Eudaimonist]

At the bottom line, being a Christian is about living two commandments, love God and love your neighbour as yourself. If I waste my life and it is all a lie, then I can at least say I tried to show other people love and compassion and made a difference to their lives. I don't have the morals of a Christian because I believe in God, its the other way around, I believe in Jesus in part because I agree with his moral teachings.

One can agree with the ethics of the New Testament without believing in the divinity of Jesus. That is an odd jump you are making there. It's like believing in the existence of Santa Claus in part because one thinks that gift-giving at Christmas is a good tradition.

Before I was a Christian I lived by the motto of survival of the fittest, I do whatever is best for me and hope in the grand scheme of things everything works out better. Such a view is perfectly justified if there is no God.

Not necessarily. Evolution is descriptive, not prescriptive.

If it's all untrue then at least it has made me a better person.

I don't think that charity necessarily makes one a better person. All too often, it is an excuse to not to make oneself a better person. Any bastard can still donate money to charities. (Not a comment on you personally.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[juvenissun]

Obviously the church gives you something you need. Something missing in your life, ...

To be precise, not church, but God. You feel closer to God in church.

Yes, even I am contented, happy and thankful, I do miss something in my life. Every human are in a similar situation and you are not an exception. You can continue to pretend what you missed are not important or even do not exist. But when you look at them ... . No need to deny it. Every human has the moment.

I realized it years ago and started to search for answers. You do not have to search. But you won't get the answer either.

 

[juvenissun]

Good for you. But hopefully you recognise that not everyone needs the crutch of religion in order to do good.

Without a religion, you do not know what is good.

 

[juvenissun]

...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Without a religion, you do not know what is good.

LOL!

There are ethical systems that don't make any reference to religion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[paulm50]

Would you make up a load of lies, write it down and proclaim a fraud as the son of God, then when arrested and beaten for spreading these lies, rather than just stop and live the rest of your life you carry on, and go willingly to your death rsther than just admit the truth? Can't say I would. And that's just one person, multiply this conspiracy by the hundreds and surely one of these people would have just admitted it was all made up, its not like Muhammed claiming to have spoken to God which you can't really refute if they insist, this was a statement of fact that would have been quite clear to people in the know whether it was true or false. It's a bit like the people that think the US was behind the twin towers attack, so many people would have had to be involved, surely one of them would have spilled the beans.

Why crucifixion you ask, maybe a quick beheading could have been arranged? Well maybe, but it shows us that God does not spare himself the suffering all humans go through at some point in their life.

 

[paulm50]

Would you make up a load of lies, write it down and proclaim a fraud as the son of God, then when arrested and beaten for spreading these lies, rather than just stop and live the rest of your life you carry on, and go willingly to your death rsther than just admit the truth? Can't say I would. And that's just one person, multiply this conspiracy by the hundreds and surely one of these people would have just admitted it was all made up, its not like Muhammed claiming to have spoken to God which you can't really refute if they insist, this was a statement of fact that would have been quite clear to people in the know whether it was true or false. It's a bit like the people that think the US was behind the twin towers attack, so many people would have had to be involved, surely one of them would have spilled the beans.

Why crucifixion you ask, maybe a quick beheading could have been arranged? Well maybe, but it shows us that God does not spare himself the suffering all humans go through at some point in their life.

Are you saying Jesus was the only person "beaten for spreading these lies, rather than just stop and live the rest of your life you carry on, and go willingly to your death rather than just admit the truth"? Because that wouldn't be true. His death has been one meted out for 1,000s of years on millions.

the problem with claiming one has spoken to god, is proving it. Especially when there's been so many claiming it, and the result is the claimant ends up better off.

Beheading wasn't an option for his crime in the Roman Empire. The Jews would of had him stoned to death. If he had of got down from the cross and converted everyone. He would of saved the world from a lt of suffering.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Without a religion, you do not know what is good.

Rubbish.