Creations.

[SamuelTP1977]

I said: "I would like to add that just because Christianity and Islam do not make sense to you, that still doesn't mean there isn't an after life for Humans. There could be a Heaven and a Hell even. So you never know it is a huge mystery."

You're limiting yourself to Christianity and Islam when it comes to an afterlife.

Yes it's a mystery. Am I to live my life following orders on the suggestion there is an afterlife without any evidence?

How someone lives their life ought to be up to the individual, I am with you there. However, there is evidence for an after life and a supernatural side to existence. There are people with near death experiences who have reported seeing something that made them think they were in Heaven or at least they were not alone. I remember reading in the book "philosophy for dummies" many interesting stories about such strange experiences, so you never know. The book was written by a theist who taught at Notre Dame University. He was a pretty good teacher too, a lot of the students liked him.

Hang in there,

Sam

 

[Eudaimonist]

I bet that was when you thought you know everything.

I have never thought that I know everything. I am only saying that I was "in that religion" and have enough knowledge of the morality of that religion to estimate how well it covers contemporary issues.

Too bad, you are out before you even know what the thing is.

Your mind-reading skills are unimpressive.

It is certainly not late for you to go back and to discover more. If you still don't like it, you may come out again with more confidence.

I don't need to go back in to discover more. I can do that by reading what members of that religion have had to say, which I have done now and then over the years.

What I can tell you is that religious morality doesn't answer nearly as much as you seem to think. It can't tell us how to resolve ethical issues in biotech, for instance.

There is no special advantage that religious moralities offer over secular ethics, especially since secular ethics is not bound to tradition and may deal with difficult modern issues.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[juvenissun]

How does religion solve most of these issues?

by giving answers.

 

[juvenissun]

I
I don't need to go back in to discover more. I can do that by reading what members of that religion have had to say, which I have done now and then over the years.

Mark

Religion is personal. Second hand information won't work.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Religion is personal. Second hand information won't work.

Second hand information works perfectly well for moral knowledge.

And keep in mind that I am a deconvert. It was personal for me at one time, and I still remember that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[paulm50]

A church will not ban any one above. Church will only tell his people: They are sins. Do it at your own risk.

Christianity, in general, does not have a higher code than other religions. Christianity has a much better theology than any other religion.

Christian church does not decide anything for anyone.
This is based on a good theology.

They can't today because they're not allowed to and kept in check. Go back 100 years and see what they did, then go back 200 years and see again. Then read your bible and see what it tells you to do on these acts.

Any religion will solve most of these issues.
You do not know that, because you are not in any of them.

Why do you believe your religion has a moral high ground on what's right? Given the History of the Church I don't see where you get the idea.

Out of the topic, but just some ideas:

I don't think contraception has anything wrong.
Sunday can be used for any activity. The best use of Sunday morning is to attend a worship service (for a very practical purpose).

You may not, I'm asking what would church leaders decide if they had a free hand to, like they did in the past and like they are told to in the bible.

 

[paulm50]

Ancient religions tend to be horrible at solving all sorts of modern issues. Modern ethics are going to do a better job, since that is how they are designed.

Modern religions can be as bad, unless kept in check by non religious morality.

One only has to look at the scandals surrounding the RCC in recent years and how it tried to cover them up. They go beyond priests molesting children. Research what the RCC can do when given power over a State. They will claim they're following the word of god, and in truth it's the words in the bible fit for a time 2,000 years ago that they follow.

Heresy is a crime religion will not tolerate and if they can they will execute people for this, along with adultery, homosexuality, and being in the wrong religion. Chopping off hands, flogging and other severe penalties for minor crimes are also common. This is allowed to happen in the Middle East, because the people are ruled by an elite clergy.

The oath taken by Roman Catholic bishop includes states "with all my power I will persecute and make war upon heretics". A schoolmaster was hanged in Spain in 1826 for heresy. The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes in 1925. It's only 200 years since we were executing people for witchcraft. And the list goes on. Slavery, selling children, owning wives and her property. The bible lays out in very definite terms what it deems as crimes. So left to the clergy and religious they have no option but to follow what the bible says.

It's the morals of the day, not bibles of any sect, that keeps them in check.

It's impossible to claim the bible is the word of god and not follow it letter by letter. Many religious people cherry pick what to follow. Then defend what they choose to defend, to the bitter end.

Religion is personal. Second hand information won't work.

Second Hand information is all you have in the bible.

Unless you can have a direct conversation with god.

 

[juvenissun]

They can't today because they're not allowed to and kept in check. Go back 100 years and see what they did, then go back 200 years and see again. Then read your bible and see what it tells you to do on these acts.

You may not, I'm asking what would church leaders decide if they had a free hand to, like they did in the past and like they are told to in the bible.

The Bible does not tell people to do what the church did in the medieval time. We can not find a single verse in the OT or NT to support that.

Nevertheless, the church-state governing system at that time is probably better than the current system. We are not really progressing in politics.

 

[juvenissun]

Why do you believe your religion has a moral high ground on what's right? Given the History of the Church I don't see where you get the idea.

I never said that (and that is your persistent misunderstanding). You can not compare moral standard among religions. It is related to, and is part of the whole doctrine of the religion. However, we do can compare the nature of god in each religion.

 

[paulm50]

The Bible does not tell people to do what the church did in the medieval time. We can not find a single verse in the OT or NT to support that.

Nevertheless, the church-state governing system at that time is probably better than the current system. We are not really progressing in politics.

The bible tells you to do a lot of things that the law today forbids. And I can find dozens of verses to back that up, and you know it.

As for not progressing, can you recommend a better time for us to compare with? Date, Government and Country would help.

 

[juvenissun]

Second Hand information is all you have in the bible.
Unless you can have a direct conversation with god.

The Bible gives the first hand information directly from God to His faithful people.
What's said in the Bible is not from human, but is from God.

If it were from human, I won't read it. I probably can write a better one. The key is that we (all humans) can not write any theology better than what the Bible gives us. We have a very good example of a failed attempt: the Islam.

 

[juvenissun]

The bible tells you to do a lot of things that the law today forbids. And I can find dozens of verses to back that up, and you know it.

In fact, I do not know that. You may tell me one, just one. Will you?

 

[paulm50]

The Bible gives the first hand information directly from God to His faithful people.
What's said in the Bible is not from human, but is from God.

If it were from human, I won't read it. I probably can write a better one. The key is that we (all humans) can not write any theology better than what the Bible gives us. We have a very good example of a failed attempt: the Islam.

Give us one part of the Bible written by god directly.

In fact, I do not know that. You may tell me one, just one. Will you?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible

When you find a passage in the bible written by god, or Jesus that says you don't have to keep these laws. You're right. And no text that can mean anything, Jesus was very precise about keeping old laws.

 

[DamianWarS]

Strange kind of reasoning, that... at least in regard to a supernatural, divine "savior".

I don't "reject" any saviour. If any such being wants to "save" me from whatever... it is fine with me. Go ahead and save me!

I simply do not believe in the existence of either saviour or something I need to be saved from. If a potential saviour sees that as a rejection and as a cause not to save me... it rather fails to live up to its job description, wouldn't you think?

If your in a raft heading toward a waterfall saying the waterfall doesn't exist won't make it go away (even if you can't see it), neither will saying your not in a raft will make that go away. It's fun to abstractly look at life in many different ways and states but truth is still a constant and won't dynamically morph into what you say is it is.

Certainly this goes both ways and saying there is a waterfall also doesn't automatically create a waterfall. And saying there is a saviour doesn't make a saviour. One thing for sure is that truth, whatever it is, transcends us. So to look for truth we cannot rely on our own ability or reason and just simple say "x is what I believe so it must be so"

Truth needs to be searched out and discovered but it cannot be possessed and manipulated by our own logic. It is what it is and when we find it we must follow truth and accept that truth will never follow us. It seems to me you approach life like that latter. Truth doesn't care however and will continue to be what it is but if you want to know it you must look beyond your own self serving singularity.

 

[paulm50]

If your in a raft heading toward a waterfall saying the waterfall doesn't exist won't make it go away (even if you can't see it), neither will saying your not in a raft will make that go away. It's fun to abstractly look at life in many different ways and states but truth is still a constant and won't dynamically morph into what you say is it is.

Certainly this goes both ways and saying there is a waterfall also doesn't automatically create a waterfall. And saying there is a saviour doesn't make a saviour. One thing for sure is that truth, whatever it is, transcends us. So to look for truth we cannot rely on our own ability of reason and just simple say "x is what I believe so it must be so"

If you're not in a raft, on a river, heading towards a waterfall. And someone tells you, you are. Do you believe him?

OK I take your point of saying it doesn't make it true. So we must delve deeper into the messenger than the message.

The people who built Stonehenge built it in an area that had been an avenue for hunting game from the dawn of people in that area. We know nomads followed game from the dawn of time. They painted pictures of successful hunts, and mythical figures on cave walls. Always appealing to some invisible being to ensure a better hunt. There's a lot of evidence of this.

Later there's evidence of huge buildings, pyramids, sculptures to invisible gods, erected to the point where they demanded a huge sacrifice in places where it was hard enough to survive. Without the extra effort of building a pyramid, Easter Island is a great example of the futility of these efforts. Often sacrifices of wealth, food or humans are demanded by these gods. Well the messenger says he demands them, and often the beneficiary is the messenger.

So why does your waterfall take precedence over the 1,000s of other waterfalls we've been scared with?

Truth needs to be searched out and discovered but it cannot be possessed and manipulated by our own logic. It is what it is and when we find it we must follow truth and accept that truth will never follow us. It seems to me you approach life like that latter. Truth doesn't care however and will continue to be what it is but if you want to know it you must look beyond your own self serving singularity.

If we aren't allowed to use logic, maybe a throw of the dice would be better.

Are you implying your insurance policy is better than the rest that religions have been selling us from the dawn of time?

 

[juvenissun]

Give us one part of the Bible written by god directly.

Genesis 1 is definitely not written by human.

 

[Goonie]

Genesis 1 is definitely not written by human.

Really? Were you there?

 

[juvenissun]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible

These are what the Bible tells us not to do.
The Bible does not tell us to do anything which is prohibited by our laws.

 

[juvenissun]

Really? Were you there?

No.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Genesis 1 is definitely not written by human.

What leads you to that conclusion?

Are similar creation myths from other religions also not written by human beings?


eudaimonia,

Mark