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Creationists, what if you found out tomorrow . . .

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Vance, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. flashwizard

    flashwizard New Member

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    US-Republican
    What makes more sense:

    What if that common ancestor is scheduled to come back tomorrow in a time machine to tell me that the earth was billions of years old and all the species on the earth, evolved from it, including Man, how would that affect your view of Scripture? How would it effect your faith?

    Answer: Wouldn't make a single difference...although it would be interesting if that common ancestor was nothing, b/c all matter came from nothing right? Or did it just decide to bang? Can my common ancestor be an energy, since that is the first existence of anything? So energy is going to come back in time and tell me that I came from it. I'll say sure I agree, b/c energy makes up everything right? I assume energy made up my ability to reason too, and choose to disagree with such hypothetical statement...haha :).
     
  2. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    I have always said that God is Sovereign. He can create any way He chooses. Do I think He created via Evolution? No I don't. I have many good scientific reasons, but I'll stick to the NOT so sceintific now: I say no for No other reason that 95 % of those that state a belief in Evolution do so only to whisk God away. If it's true they don't have to deal with God. We all came some other way. I honestly don't think God worked in a way in which the VAST MAJORITY of people have picked their avenue to NOT Bring Him Glory. God wants us to love him, to believe Him. He has NOT given us details on "how the Heaven's go, but how to go to Heaven"...at least for the most part.

    Now, with all that said, again I state, God is Sovereign, and when I stand before Him I will KNOW without a shadow of a doubt exactly how He did it. I do NOT wish to limit Him. He knows my heart. Question is does He know yours? Is this a stubbling block for you? The bigger question from a Reformed perspective is: has he given you grace to know him or has He darkened your heart? Evolution is NOT out biggest question, our Biggest question is Has he drawn us to Himself and helped us to know Him? I'm hoping that Evolution is NOT that stubbling block for many out there that I presume it is!


     
  3. Mechanical Bliss

    Mechanical Bliss Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

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    Atheist
    US-Democrat
    And again, why do creationists have such a hard time engaging in discussions of hypothetical situations?
     
  4. Blackmarch

    Blackmarch Legend

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    Mormon
    Single
    Probably an effect of creedalism...
     
  5. flashwizard

    flashwizard New Member

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    I supposed you missed my addition to the discussion a couple posts back.

    I also supposed that you suppose a contribution to the discussion must only agree with the subject matter.
     
  6. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    I don't have a hard time with it. I have read more on both sides of this debate over the last couple of years than you can imagine. I have Read Kenneth Miller's Book, Finding Darwins God and have actually corresponded with him via email. I have Read much in I.D and A.I.G. I have read, Phillip Johnson, Dembski as well as Sagan and Davies. Miller does not impress me as one who knows God, yet He's a very intelligent man. Being intelligent means nothing to THE creator of EVERYTHING. He chooses whom He will and HE confounds Whom He will.

    Psalm 135:5-6 5 For I know that the LORD is great, And our Lord is above all gods. 6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.

    If I am wrong about evolution, he knows my heart, and will NOT hold that against me. If on the other hand, you are right about evolution, and don't know Him...what does it all matter ?

    Do you at least see my dilemma with Evolutionary thinking ? 95 % of those that believe in it, do so as a means to explain God away, the other 5 % --like Miller, I'm not so sure about. Jury's still out.

    Also, Jesus Spoke a lot in Parables and Storys to get His points across. I think I'm in good company by using "hypotheticals".


    And AGAIN, I'm OPENED to however God would want to create. I just don't believe the evidence is conclusive by any means. Minor changes yes, that's simple and given, but NOT changes in Kind or Macro.


     
  7. Vance

    Vance Contributor

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    Adonirim, who is saying anything about Moses (or whoever first told and whoever first wrote the creation accounts) having made a mistake? It is only a "mistake" if you think it was meant by the writer to be a literal historical account. This is actually contradicted by the literary style, the internal texts themselves, and the way the peoples of the ancient neareast viewed writings about their past. The idea that writings about the past need to be written in the literal/historical style in order to be "correct" or valuable is the product of a more modern mindset.
     
  8. Mechanical Bliss

    Mechanical Bliss Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

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    I made that reply in reference to specific posts.

    A meaningful contribution to the discussion must directly answer the questions in the OP, otherwise it's just making excuses for not wanting to consider the hypothetical situation outlined there.
     
  9. Mechanical Bliss

    Mechanical Bliss Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

    +211
    Atheist
    US-Democrat
    Then why did you avoid engaging in the hypothetical situation outlined in the OP?

    Your post amounted to nothing more than "I know I'm right, so the hypothetical situation would never happened, thus I don't have to answer it."

    Making stuff up doesn't gain you credibility on this part of the forum, for your information.

    Your "dilemma" does not actually exist.

    Then why not answer the question instead of creating distractions?

    Given that you don't even know what a kind is, it's meaningless to say that evolution cannot occur beyond this so-called "kind" barrier. It's just another symptom of the lack of scientific thought put into creationism--it's just fanciful storytelling powered by buzzwords like "kind."

    But this thread isn't designed to go into that. That's another distraction from the topic.
     
  10. TheMagi

    TheMagi Member

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    They don't. I have done.
    The reason you find it hard to engage them in that way is that those creationists who really think this an issue seriously worth arguing about are (for obvious reasons) those who think not only that the issue is really important, but also that it is pretty near heretical not to be a creationist. The rest of us spend more time on other forums.

    I dare say most people with moderate views have enough of a life not to spend their days in vicious online debate at CF, like we all do.

    Magi
     
  11. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    MB

    I believe I stated that "God is Sovereign" and that I would NOT hold Him to creating one way over the other. I only stated my reasons for believing that He didn't operate through evolution based on my opinion only. Would it affect my faith IF He operated through Evolution? Absolutely not.


    No, my post did not amount to a "I know I'm right," only that spiritually speaking, it's NOT Vital. Does that mean I'm NOT interested in looking and dealving into the matter? Of course NOT, or I would not have mentioned the books and interest I have in the subject. I still believe it only a theory however, and that it requires as much faith as my faith because I was NOT there in the Cambrian Period nor am I an Expert on the subject. I have to rely on my reading and trust the authors and their experiements just as much as you do.

    I only hold that Scripture tells me in Romans Chapter 1 that belief in Him is more important to me:

    Romans 1:20-25 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    Maybe I assumed more from this forum than I should. Namely that the majority of those posting are in fact Christians. I'm not looking for validation from you. Your only 24 and have lived half the life I have. It would really make no difference to me if your I.Q level was twice that of mine, which I doubt it is: Wisdom and Knowledge are two different things.


    I'm sure your very proud of your sceintific knowledge and learning, but remember, your sceince promises you nothing beyond the grave. Christ does. Again, if God wants to operate through evolution, He can well do so and befuddle little ole me till I'm blue in the face. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. What I believe I am doing is to allow God to operate anyway He wants. With that said, I don't think I have been thoroughly convinced with the evidence...based on my vaired reading. Evolution still requires a lot of faith, just as my belief in God does. God has opened my eyes to His truth; I just don't believe He has yet opened my eyes of the convincing proof of evolution...and you know what, if He doesn't, it will make NONE THE DIFFERENCE when I die.

    I hope that answers your question satisfactorly....


     
  12. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    Absolutely true....



     
  13. Vance

    Vance Contributor

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    Caddy, I have no problem with your position, and here is why. If your kids, or a non-Christian were to question you on the subject, you would likely say "here is what I believe, but it is important to realize that many Christians hold different views on this issue, and it is not one that effects salvation, so it should not be a big issue either way".

    That is all I can ask.
     
  14. Pete Harcoff

    Pete Harcoff PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

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    Other Religion
    Probably the same reason that most creationists wouldn't change their minds about their particular beliefs even if they were demonstrated to be flat-out wrong. Maybe a side effect of true-believer syndrome?
     
  15. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    Simplicity !

    I love it


    :amen:



     
  16. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    I can appreciate your Quote here Vance:

    In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis

    :thumbsup:



     
  17. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    While all of that is True Vance...If My kids asked me, I would point them to the books I've read by Miller, Behe, Dembski, Wells, Augustine, Warfield, Sagan. I would then point out why I believe what I believe...and even though it might NOT be a doctrinal issue that will send one to Hell, presuming we have ALL the answers--or that we can even get at alll the answers in this lifetime is pointless, absurd, and prideful.

    Peace to you....

     
  18. Mechanical Bliss

    Mechanical Bliss Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

    +211
    Atheist
    US-Democrat
    This is the first time you have directly answered the question.

    Since the rest of your post was nothing but mindless preaching, distractions from the point at hand, and blatant errors, it's not worth delving into this any further.

    I was simply calling you out on the fact that you did not actually answer Vance's question from the OP...until now.
     
  19. Adoniram

    Adoniram Senior Member

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    I am not unaware of the debate about the omniscience, etc., of Jesus. I, for one, believe that he was not limited by the normal human trappings that you and I are. There are several reasons for this. First, even though he was human, he was, indeed, God. Whether he chose to display his Godly attributes would of course, be up to him. Second, even at age 12 he knew who he was and what his purpose was. "Know ye not that I must be about my Father's business." Third, he had the ability to step from his earthly contenance to his heavenly contenance at will. Witness the transfiguration. Fourth, he prophesied, walked on water, healed, cast out demons, etc. with authority. Of course this can be attributed to his perfect faith, which if we as Christians had, according to his Word, we would be able to "move mountains" as well. But on the other hand, he was/is, after all, God. Fifth, after his resurrection, he did chose to display attributes one might ascribe to God. The ability to walk through walls, or perhaps more correctly, materialize out of nothing, for example. Yet we know he still had a human body, eating with them, asking Thomas to touch the nailprints in his hand, etc. To me it is not unreasonable to think that he was aware of things which happened in the realm of eternity while he was in human form. Remember, Luke 10:18

    "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

    Jesus was not merely a 1st century Jewish rabbi, but otherwise, I have to agree with you. They accepted the truth of the creation account as it was written. I see no reason to believe any differently. Modern science, while offering explanations on how things all fit and work together, has no plausible explanation for the beginnings that would supercede the one related in the Scriptures. Men get all caught up in what they think they know but may I remind you of what the Apostle Paul had to say in 1 Cor. 3:18-20.

    "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
     
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