Creationists, what if you found out tomorrow . . .

[Big Rob]

I could tell you, but I'd get warned (and possibly banned!!1!!one1!).

It is unbelievably easy to get banned here. I got banned for not changing my custom title, despite not being able to afford to do so.

 

[P4g4nite]

It is unbelievably easy to get banned here. I got banned for not changing my custom title, despite not being able to afford to do so.

Haha! sucka!

I was ordered* to change my sig, so I asked for a refund on my old one


*asked politely

 

[Oonna]

Dang....I was really hoping someone would answer this question.

 

[Ryal Kane]

YEC's don't "do" hypothetical. I can't work out whether it's because they're incapable, or whether they are afraid that to even accept a hypothetical situation is an admission of doubt or something.

The standard response is "I don't need to worry about that because it's not true."

Keep in mind that the whole reason for the creationist position is in inability or unwillingness to see things in metaphors.

 

[paulrob]

I have asked this question before and got some very interesting answers, but since we have a lot of new YEC's here, I thought I would ask it again. This is a question specifically for Creationists, either old or young.

If you found out tomorrow, in a way that left NO DOUBT whatsoever, that the earth was billions of years old and that all the species on earth, including Man, evolved from a common ancestor, how would that effect your view of Scripture? How would it effect your faith?

Your question is almost irrelevant as that's what we've been told for the last 150 years. So most of us have already come to terms with the situation.

Now lets be more realistic in our philosophising: They've just discovered that the supposed age of the universe has been probably overstated by some 3 billion years. Spontaneoud Generation was destroyed by one simple experiment. The speed of light has now been questioned, along with the "truth" of e=MC^2. Under lab conditions halflife of one of our chonometers was reduced from millions of years to minutes.
What if the entire process of dating cosmology was in error, and in fact the earth was only 15,000 years old, what would that do to your faith?

What if scientists finally admitted that there was no possibility of life evolving (as is suggested by ALL the evidence including the Wistar conferences that determined that abiogenesis was impossible.), and that there was a universal flood that killed everything on earth as all the major Biblical writers claim?

What would that do to your faith?

Why do Christians try so hard to make the major Biblical writers liars? Why attempt with such enthusiams to make Jesus a teacher of a false religion?

Why isn't it enough to say God said it, I believe it and that settles it?

Why do so many Christians follow the sin of EVE and look at appearances, rather than the truth behind the appearances.

When Elisha sent his servant to check on the Mideonites - he saw what some would call reality. When God opened his eyes, he saw the truth.

If the Christian scientists, professional and amateur, that spend so much time supporting the long war against God through science (a form of idolatry - questioning hath God said, and setting up a false God to worship) would put their effort into research from a Biblical perspective, the true issue would very quickly become clear:

Evolution and long ages are necessary to remove God from the picture. Short ages requires God and the secular mindset cannot allow that.

-

 

[notto]

Under lab conditions halflife of one of our chonometers was reduced from millions of years to minutes.
What if the entire process of dating cosmology was in error, and in fact the earth was only 15,000 years old, what would that do to your faith?

What lab conditions were those paul? Are you suggesting that something like this could occur naturally and here on earth?

You seem to be suggesting that you have exposed some weakness in dating b by bringing this up. Perhaps you could share the details of this with us and tell us how it relates at all to dating methods using naturally observed and constant rates of decay.

 

[Tomk80]

Your question is almost irrelevant as that's what we've been told for the last 150 years. So most of us have already come to terms with the situation.

It has been said in this thread that creationists cannot deal with hypothetical situations. I propose this post as evidence which backs up that hypothesis.

I futher hypothesize that the rest of this post will contain some errors (I haven't read it as of yet) of some sort. I will continue now in testing this hypothesis.

Now lets be more realistic in our philosophising: They've just discovered that the supposed age of the universe has been probably overstated by some 3 billion years.

Which does nothing to the argument. Whether the universe is around 12 billion years old or around 9 billions years old doesn't actually do the young earth argument any good.

Spontaneoud Generation was destroyed by one simple experiment.

It already was more than a hundred years ago. Spontaneous generation is not used in current scientific theories. Abiogenesis is not spontaneous generation. I present this as an error and assert that this is evidence of my hypothesis.

The speed of light has now been questioned, along with the "truth" of e=MC^2. Under lab conditions halflife of one of our chonometers was reduced from millions of years to minutes.

Okay, let's assume the above.

What if the entire process of dating cosmology was in error, and in fact the earth was only 15,000 years old, what would that do to your faith?

Well, first it would lead me to reexamine the evidence. I'll continue with the next quote.

What if scientists finally admitted that there was no possibility of life evolving (as is suggested by ALL the evidence including the Wistar conferences that determined that abiogenesis was impossible.), and that there was a universal flood that killed everything on earth as all the major Biblical writers claim?

Further evidence for my hypothesis. Error #2: abiogenesis=/=evolution. If life would be directly created by God, this still would not invalidate evolution and common ancestry.
Questionable claim: As far as I know, it has not been determined that abiogenesis is impossible. There are working models which, although unfinished, have not been disproven yet either.

What would that do to your faith?

It would again make me reexamine the evidence. It would mean that flood stories around the world probably show more than a fleeting connection, which would be interesting. It would also be interesting to look at earliest accounts of the world wide flood, like the sumerian one. It would not make me a christian, although I might become deistic or theistic.

Why do Christians try so hard to make the major Biblical writers liars? Why attempt with such enthusiams to make Jesus a teacher of a false religion?

Error #4: Saying that the biblical writers wrote an allegorical account does not make them liars. This statement further supports my hypothesis as well. It also supports the assertion put forward in this thread that creationists have trouble with allegorical accounts.

Why isn't it enough to say God said it, I believe it and that settles it?

Error #5: People wrote it, that God said it is a believe. A correct statement would be: I believe that God said it and that settles it for me.
Error #6: Creationists generally do not claim the above. Creationists claim that there is evidence for their position. Which makes the hypothetical question interesting. If it would be solidly proven to you that evolution is correct, would you change your worldview?

Why do so many Christians follow the sin of EVE and look at appearances, rather than the truth behind the appearances. So why do you do that?

When Elisha sent his servant to check on the Mideonites - he saw what some would call reality. When God opened his eyes, he saw the truth.

If the Christian scientists, professional and amateur, that spend so much time supporting the long war against God through science (a form of idolatry - questioning hath God said, and setting up a false God to worship) would put their effort into research from a Biblical perspective, the true issue would very quickly become clear:

Evolution and long ages are necessary to remove God from the picture. Short ages requires God and the secular mindset cannot allow that.

-

Evolution and long ages are not necessary to remove God from the picture. With short ages I can just as well reject God and posit aliens. Furthermore, Christian scientists worship God through both the bible and through studying Gods creation. It is cristian creationists that view the bible as God, in stead of viewing God through the bible. YEC's are the ones committing idolatry, plain and simple.

 

[Lilandra]

Your question is almost irrelevant as that's what we've been told for the last 150 years. So most of us have already come to terms with the situation.

The question is very relevant because YECs won't come to terms with an ancient earth otherwise they would be OECs and TEs

Now lets be more realistic in our philosophising: They've just discovered that the supposed age of the universe has been probably overstated by some 3 billion years. Spontaneoud Generation was destroyed by one simple experiment.

Spontaeneous generation was the official church position when it was debunked by Pasteur who modified earlier experiments.

The speed of light has now been questioned, along with the "truth" of e=MC^2. Under lab conditions halflife of one of our chonometers was reduced from millions of years to minutes.

link please

What if the entire process of dating cosmology was in error, and in fact the earth was only 15,000 years old, what would that do to your faith?

Nothing. But you haven't proved that.

What if scientists finally admitted that there was no possibility of life evolving (as is suggested by ALL the evidence including the Wistar conferences that determined that abiogenesis was impossible.), and that there was a universal flood that killed everything on earth as all the major Biblical writers claim?

Abiogenesis does not prove or disprove evolution. Evolution deals with living populations evolving.

What would that do to your faith?

Since your claim is erroneous. Nothing

Why do Christians try so hard to make the major Biblical writers liars? Why attempt with such enthusiams to make Jesus a teacher of a false religion?

No christian TE claims that Christianity is a false religion. Don't try to throw the authority of Jesus in so that you aren't evolved from earlier primates.

Why isn't it enough to say God said it, I believe it and that settles it?

You claim authority to tell us what God said?

When Elisha sent his servant to check on the Mideonites - he saw what some would call reality. When God opened his eyes, he saw the truth.

red herring. look at my red herring of an out of context Bible quote that has nothing to do with evolution instead of the facts.

If the Christian scientists, professional and amateur, that spend so much time supporting the long war against God through science (a form of idolatry - questioning hath God said, and setting up a false God to worship) would put their effort into research from a Biblical perspective, the true issue would very quickly become clear:

This is so ironic because you will jump on any theory that claims any wiggle room with the speed of light to support your ridiculous claim that the Earth is 15,000 years old. But science that doesn't support your belief system is idolatry and worshipping a false God? How about looking at the cosmos that God created and worshipping Him rather than the false God that you have created to protect yourself from the reality that you are a primate?

To be clear no fluctuation in the speed of light gives anyone the 15,000 year age of the cosmos. It is billions of years old regardless. But any fine tuning of the properties of light you jump on that science.

Evolution and long ages are necessary to remove God from the picture. Short ages requires God and the secular mindset cannot allow that.

-

That is the heart of clinging to a young age for the Earth. Evolution requires time and you don't want to acknowledge the obvious so it couldn't be.

God does not require a short age. Whatever God is pleased to do He did.

 

[Big Rob]

Haha! sucka!

I was ordered* to change my sig, so I asked for a refund on my old one


*asked politely

I did too, but instead got shunned. Was that the one: "ATHEISM a conclusion is when you get tired of thinking?". If so, this place sure doesn't like us atheists very much.

 

[Edx]

Your question is almost irrelevant

Its not irrelevant. He is trying to find out how obstinent your faith really is.

They've just discovered that the supposed age of the universe has been probably overstated by some 3 billion years.

A reference? But why would it matter? The universe is supposed to be far older than 3 billion years.

Spontaneoud Generation was destroyed by one simple experiment.

Spontaneous generation was never abiogenesis, and most scientists had a problem with the idea. It was never a real theory. Why keep claiming this is relevant at all? And the Christian that did that experiment also realised we evolved and the age of the earthwas old, just like those YEC Geologists that discovered it becuase the evidence didnt match that of a young earth.

The speed of light has now been questioned, along with the "truth" of e=MC^2.

Now I just have to see a reference for this one, and what you think it means. Sounds a lot like a Hovind lie to me.

Under lab conditions halflife of one of our chonometers was reduced from millions of years to minutes.

What?

What if the entire process of dating cosmology was in error, and in fact the earth was only 15,000 years old, what would that do to your faith?

Then Id have no choice but to accept it, because you see Paul I have no faith.

What if scientists finally admitted that there was no possibility of life evolving (as is suggested by ALL the evidence including the Wistar conferences that determined that abiogenesis was impossible.), and that there was a universal flood that killed everything on earth as all the major Biblical writers claim?

Then I'd love to see the evidence for all that, and how everything fits.

What would that do to your faith?

Nothing, as I have none. Some people are open-minded, Paul.

And if abiogenesis was wrong, it wouldnt make a difference to evolution. It has hardly anything to do with it.

Why do Christians try so hard to make the major Biblical writers liars? Why attempt with such enthusiams to make Jesus a teacher of a false religion?

Why do Creationists have such terrible imaginations? Your interpretation makes a lot less less sence than it being meant as an allegory. Course from my perspective you are all wrong, but they certinaly at least have a grip on reality.

--snip--

If the Christian scientists, professional and amateur, that spend so much time supporting the long war against God through science (a form of idolatry - questioning hath God said, and setting up a false God to worship)

What is idolatry is Creationists that are so arogant think they know exactly how to interprete the Bible and what God wants and thinks.

would put their effort into research from a Biblical perspective, the true issue would very quickly become clear:
Evolution and long ages are necessary to remove God from the picture. Short ages requires God and the secular mindset cannot allow that.

Why do Creationits have a habit of redefining words? Truth does not mean what you want to be true. And it cannot be truth if you requre obstinent faith to believe it.

Ed

 

[TheMagi]

YEC's don't "do" hypothetical. I can't work out whether it's because they're incapable, or whether they are afraid that to even accept a hypothetical situation is an admission of doubt or something.

The standard response is "I don't need to worry about that because it's not true."

Obstinate YEC'er/Retarded philospoher/whatever here.

Sorry to derail slightly the conclusion of this thread, but...

I don't think it would cause me any problem at all.
I am a young earth creationist because I believe that it is the simplest way of explaining both scripture and the evidence (which do seem to contradict each other entirely!) without casting aspersions on God's truthfulness.
If I was wrong, well, I am a fallible human being, it would turn out I had been a bit thick in seeing reality where a metaphor was meant, and I'd rethink slightly me ideas about how scripture works - but probably not by much.
My faith is in Christ crucified, and I hope to know only christ crucified. I'm too stupid to be certain of much else, and it is perfectly possible my obstinate sinfulness makes me misinterpret a passage of the bible that, while very important and full of lessons, is unlikely to be necessary in all its details for the basic task of 'repent and believe'.
Magi

 

[Vance]

paulrob, how about answering the question before asking new ones?

 

[Blackmarch]

I have asked this question before and got some very interesting answers, but since we have a lot of new YEC's here, I thought I would ask it again. This is a question specifically for Creationists, either old or young.

If you found out tomorrow, in a way that left NO DOUBT whatsoever, that the earth was billions of years old and that all the species on earth, including Man, evolved from a common ancestor, how would that effect your view of Scripture? How would it effect your faith?

10 to 1 they wouldn't change...
One could also ask the same of the flipside; if you found out tomorrow that left absolutely no doubt that the earth was created in 7 days (be they 24 hrs, or 1000 years each) how would that afffect your life and beliefs?

 

[Edx]

Obstinate YEC'er/Retarded philospoher/whatever here.

Please tell me this was a joke

 

[TheMagi]

Please tell me this was a joke

Joke? us YEC'ers don't have a sense of humor. Just quoting definitions of my position from earlier in the thread...
Magi

 

[Adoniram]

Creationists, what if you found out tomorrow . . .

I have asked this question before and got some very interesting answers, but since we have a lot of new YEC's here, I thought I would ask it again. This is a question specifically for Creationists, either old or young.

If you found out tomorrow, in a way that left NO DOUBT whatsoever, that the earth was billions of years old and that all the species on earth, including Man, evolved from a common ancestor, how would that effect your view of Scripture? How would it effect your faith?

OK, I'll play.

If the universe was billions of years old and all life evolved from a common ancestor as you proposed in your hypothesis, there would be no scripture, no faith to hold to. We would be but animals, with no sense of God.

 

[Vance]

OK, I'll play.

If the universe was billions of years old and all life evolved from a common ancestor as you proposed in your hypothesis, there would be no scripture, no faith to hold to. We would be but animals, with no sense of God.

OK, this is where I see the danger of this type of YEC thinking and teaching, since we know that if this is how many YEC's THINK, it is how many YEC's TEACH.

It takes VERY little imagination to see the dangers involved. Many people are being taught (especially our young people!!!) that if evolution is true, you might as well throw the Bible out, since it is entirely, utterly and without doubt contradictory to Scripture. While some YEC's have insisted that this type of dogmatism is not what YEC's think or say, threads like this (and the identical one I posted in the other forum) prove otherwise.

Now, consider these people believing this concrete dichotomy as the Creationists above do. Then imagine them studying the evidence and coming to accept that evolution is true. According to their view of the irreconcilable nature of the two, the more they come to see that evolution is likely true, the more they doubt Scripture is true AT ALL!

And non-Christians as well are effected by this teaching. IF they already accept evolution (which most do), and they are told in no uncertain terms that if evolution is true, you might as well toss Scripture out, then that is exactly what they will do!

All for a particular interpretation of particular Scripture, that many (if not most) Christians find an incorrect reading anyway.

All I have ever asked on this forum is that if you believe this absolute division, please don't present it to our youth or non-Christians that way, and discourage others from doing so. The potential damage is great, and the rewards are minimal if they exist at all.

 

[LittleNipper]

OK, this is where I see the danger of this type of YEC thinking and teaching, since we know that if this is how many YEC's THINK, it is how many YEC's TEACH.

It takes VERY little imagination to see the dangers involved. Many people are being taught (especially our young people!!!) that if evolution is true, you might as well throw the Bible out, since it is entirely, utterly and without doubt contradictory to Scripture. While some YEC's have insisted that this type of dogmatism is not what YEC's think or say, threads like this (and the identical one I posted in the other forum) prove otherwise.

Now, consider these people believing this concrete dichotomy as the Creationists above do. Then imagine them studying the evidence and coming to accept that evolution is true. According to their view of the irreconcilable nature of the two, the more they come to see that evolution is likely true, the more they doubt Scripture is true AT ALL!

And non-Christians as well are effected by this teaching. IF they already accept evolution (which most do), and they are told in no uncertain terms that if evolution is true, you might as well toss Scripture out, then that is exactly what they will do!

All for a particular interpretation of particular Scripture, that many (if not most) Christians find an incorrect reading anyway.

All I have ever asked on this forum is that if you believe this absolute division, please don't present it to our youth or non-Christians that way, and discourage others from doing so. The potential damage is great, and the rewards are minimal if they exist at all.

Not at all. We don't have to teach the young this at all. They come to this realization entirely on their own through the WORLD's LOGIC. When Bible reading was removed from public schools in and around 1963-64. I personally noted a mark difference in the general behavior of my fellow classmates. The realization was that a lighting bolt did not come down from heaven and burn all the schools. The President was still alive as was the Supreme Court Justices. The youth already know that any real god does not need to follow nature. Nature follows GOD. If the BIBLE is corrupted and interpretation is established on my heart from my OWN knowledge, then there is NO HOPE, because divine revelation does not exist and GOD is but a idealized dream... As we cling to man's TRADITION the world becomes a dangerous place. It is when we learn to lean on a REAL GOD and trust that REAL GOD that HOPE returns. We cannot trust nature to tell us what GOD expects. ONLY GOD's WORD reveals exactly what GOD demands.

 

[Vance]

Not at all. We don't have to teach the young this at all. They come to this realization entirely on their own through the WORLD's LOGIC. When Bible reading was removed from public schools in and around 1963-64. I personally noted a mark difference in the general behavior of my fellow classmates. The realization was that a lighting bolt did not come down from heaven and burn all the schools. The President was still alive as was the Supreme Court Justices. The youth already know that any real god does not need to follow nature. Nature follows GOD. If the BIBLE is corrupted and interpretation is established on my heart from my OWN knowledge, then there is NO HOPE, because divine revelation does not exist and GOD is but a idealized dream... As we cling to man's TRADITION the world becomes a dangerous place. It is when we learn to lean on a REAL GOD and trust that REAL GOD that HOPE returns. We cannot trust nature to tell us what GOD expects. ONLY GOD's WORD reveals exactly what GOD demands.

Well, you are forgetting a number of things:

1. Christians who accept evolution believe God's Word as much as you do.

2. Our youth will generally accept whatever interpretation of Scripture which is given them, and most will not be able to break free from a dogmatic teaching later in life, regardless of how wrong it is. If they are raised to believe that Scripture absolutely says that evolution is false and the earth is young, they will believe that Scripture says this absolutely. Then when they conclude that evolution is correct, they will often lose faith in Scripture. I have seen this happen over and over.

3. Those Christians who accept evolution believe as much as you do that God can and does work supernaturally, so that is a non-issue.

4. You are assuming that your literal/historical interpretation of Scripture is, indeed, what was provided by divine revelation. I, on the other hand, am convinced that a figurative and non-literal reading of the Creation story is what was inspired by divine revelation. Your entire position is based on a dogmatic belief that only your own, personal reading of Scripture can possibly be the one God inspired.

 

[Matthew777]

If you found out tomorrow, in a way that left NO DOUBT whatsoever, that the earth was billions of years old and that all the species on earth, including Man, evolved from a common ancestor, how would that effect your view of Scripture? How would it effect your faith?

I'd wonder how Moses, Jesus Christ, Saint Paul and the fathers of the Church could be wrong. But then again, I'd still be a Christian and find some way to conform this new knowledge to Christian theology.
However, the evidence as it stands today, is not convincing enough to justify a compromise.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.