Creationist that wants to learn about evolution.

[Modus]

No. Because that is not the way science is done. You try to show ideas to be false. Not "prove" them. In science, "prove" is verbal shorthand for "I have shown to be false every alternative explanation we can think of."

At the time people thought the earth was flat they did not have a concept of "science" as we have it now. The theory that the earth was flat was developed based on induction or conclusions from observations. These were very limited observations: standing on a flat plain, having the horizon look flat on the ocean, having the sun and moon appear to go overhead from one side of the earth to the other.

To show my point further. In a thousand years from now, do you think that people could say something similar about us?


BTW, Your definition of prove works fine with my question.

 

[danaman5]

To show my point further. In a thousand years from now, do you think that people could say something similar about us?

Well, of course that is possible. However, the theory that is accepted then will not be creation science. Just because a new theory could come up later doesn't mean we should drop our current theories as false when there is no evidence that they are.

 

[lucaspa]

To show my point further. In a thousand years from now, do you think that people could say something similar about us?


BTW, Your definition of prove works fine with my question.

Possible, but not likely. Notice that Creation Science was falsified. It has bene shown to be false. That isn't going to change.

We have tried every test we can think of to falsify evolution. The only thing that could falsify common ancestry is finding mammalian fossils in the Cambrian. I can't envision anything that would falsify natural selection as an algorithm to get design.

The only realistic scenario I can think of would be something like Jack Chalker's Well World series, where the universe is deliberately deceptive so that it only looks like evolution happened. Or that evolution did happen for most species and then some species were artificially introduced. Chalker uses an ET species with the power of creation to equal God. Or you could find out that God really did deceive us. That would show evolution to be wrong, but ti would also be the end of Christianity and any other form of theism except Satanism. We couldn't trust a deity that perpetrated such a massive deception.

 

[Modus]

Possible

Thats the correct answer.

We couldn't trust a deity that perpetrated such a massive deception.

Who said God perpetrated it? My vote would be that Satan would try and decieve the masses.

 

[Arikay]

Is satan that powerful? to be able to make Major physical changes to gods creation without god being able to stop him?

 

[Modus]

Satan is extremely powerfull.

Revalation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan can only do what God alows him to do. Just becuase Satan decieves people does'nt mean that God cannot stop it.

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

 

[Arikay]

But that doesn't tell us if he is powerful enough to do what he must have done if modern biology, astronomy, and geology are false. I would think it would take godly abilities to change the world so much. Satan would need to have completly changed gods creation, without god doing a thing about it.

The way I see it, either satan is as powerful as god, or god does not care about his creation being completly rearranged and tampered with. Neither options sounds very good.

Satan is extremely powerfull.

Revalation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan can only do what God alows him to do. Just becuase Satan decieves people does'nt mean that God cannot stop it.

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

 

[Mr_Coffee]

I'd say read through some of the really long threads here. There's more tangible, summarized information here than you'd find at a lot of places.

 

[Modus]

I'd say read through some of the really long threads here. There's more tangible, summarized information here than you'd find at a lot of places.

I agree, I'm loving it too. Thanks guys for you help!

 

[Modus]

The way I see it, either satan is as powerful as god, or god does not care about his creation being completly rearranged and tampered with. Neither options sounds very good.

Satan is not as powerfull as God. Lucifer was God's most powerfull creation and the very thing that made lucifer fall was the idea that he was more powerfull than God. Satan is VERY powerfull and I really don't know that God would let Satan rearange God's creation. But I do know that most people in this world follow Satan even if they don't really know that they are, and they have been deeply decieved. If evolution was false, I have no doubt in my mind that Satan could get people to believe in it. Although I don't think Satan would bother with it if there wasn't anything in it for him.

Nobody can deny that some people use evolution as a replacement and explaination for God. As silly as that sounds, most people I have met believe this. I have been told that the world was created from the big bang and everything just evolved and that God doesn't exist. I know most people on here seperate evolution from God and the big bang is another story, but most people I have met cling to that stuff as an excuse not to believe in God. That to me rings a deep red bell that Satan could very well be involved with a mass deception here. So I am being very carefull when I research this stuff becuase I know that I can very easily be outwitted by Satan, (2 Corinthians 2:11
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.) so I am relying on God to help me through this.

 

[Arikay]

I have met a few that do that, but not many, and of course, they are wrong to do it. Evolution means that its Possible for god to have not done anything, but it doesn't mean god couldn't have used it to create, just like the Big Bang.

If satan is involved in any mass deceptions I think it has less to do with evolution and more to do with defining science as atheism. Both creationist and militant atheists do it.

Creationists define most science as atheism and thus they shouldn't listen to it. Militant atheists do the same and say that science disproves god. Both sides are of course wrong.

Satan is not as powerfull as God. Lucifer was God's most powerfull creation and the very thing that made lucifer fall was the idea that he was more powerfull than God. Satan is VERY powerfull and I really don't know that God would let Satan rearange God's creation. But I do know that most people in this world follow Satan even if they don't really know that they are, and they have been deeply decieved. If evolution was false, I have no doubt in my mind that Satan could get people to believe in it. Although I don't think Satan would bother with it if there wasn't anything in it for him.

Nobody can deny that some people use evolution as a replacement and explaination for God. As silly as that sounds, most people I have met believe this. I have been told that the world was created from the big bang and everything just evolved and that God doesn't exist. I know most people on here seperate evolution from God and the big bang is another story, but most people I have met cling to that stuff as an excuse not to believe in God. That to me rings a deep red bell that Satan could very well be involved with a mass deception here. So I am being very carefull when I research this stuff becuase I know that I can very easily be outwitted by Satan, (2 Corinthians 2:11
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.) so I am relying on God to help me through this.

 

[lucaspa]

Oh man. I dont sleep at least one night a week if not more, I'm pretty buisy these days. It's not like I'm just sitting around here guys. I'm asking for help becuase I consider this subject important and I don't have a lot of time with my lifestyle. I still have a few questions that ill post later.

Then spend less time online and more time in the library. Sorry, Modus. We can point you to the sources, but the amount of knowledge is so extensive we can't put it all here online, even if we could violate copyright that much. Not only that, but a lot of the data is in Tables and pictures that we can't reproduce here very well. I'm going to try to put most of a recent paper in Science up here in another thread to show you just a fraction of the actual data. But that is a lot of work and I can't do it for everything. You are going to have to read on your own.

 

[lucaspa]

Thats the correct answer.

Did you read the rest of the post? It's also possible that the earth is not round or that there is no gravity. Both are theories. Are you holding your breath that either are wrong.

Modus, this is not a choice of creation or evolution. It's not theism vs atheism. It's an argument about how God created. Did God create by the mechanism God has shown us in His Creation or did God create by a human theory built upon a human literal interpretation of Genesis 1-8? I place my bet on God. How about you?

Who said God perpetrated it? My vote would be that Satan would try and decieve the masses.

Modus, where does it say anywhere in the Bible that Satan had anything to do with Creation? Nowhere. All the statements about creation in the Bible say God, and God alone, created. So, all the evidence we see that says the earth is not young, that each species -- including humans -- was not specially created in present form, had to be put there by God. Nope, if this is a deception, then it is a deception conceived and perpetrated by God.

You see, you have set God up to lose either way. Either God created everything and deceived us with Creation, or God deceived us by having the Bible tell us repeatedly that only He created. Either way, God deceived us and we can't trust Him.

The only way out of the dilemma is to accept that God created by the mechanisms science has found and to change our interpretation of Genesis 1-8.

 

[lucaspa]

Satan can only do what God alows him to do. Just becuase Satan decieves people does'nt mean that God cannot stop it.

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Thanks for destroying Christianity. With friends like you, Christianity doesn't need any enemies. Even if we now allow your argument that Satan changed Creation to only make it look old, because of you we now have to say that God allowed this to happen and didn't tell us. Tell me, what is the difference between someone who perpetrates a fraud and someone who knows it is a fraud but lets you continue to think it is genuine?

Nothing as far as I can see. Neither can be trusted.

 

[lucaspa]

Nobody can deny that some people use evolution as a replacement and explaination for God.

I don't deny it. I simply say it is not correct. Evolution does not, and never has, do that. Darwin knew this, if people would just read that last pages of Origin and the Fontispiece.

I have been told that the world was created from the big bang and everything just evolved and that God doesn't exist. I know most people on here seperate evolution from God and the big bang is another story, but most people I have met cling to that stuff as an excuse not to believe in God. That to me rings a deep red bell that Satan could very well be involved with a mass deception here.

OK. But let me suggest that the deception is not that evolution is wrong, but the deception is that evolution denies God! That is a more subtle deception, isn't it? And being subtle, it also deceives people like you into believing evolution is wrong! It's a two-fold deception. More bang for the buck.

Not only does Satan deceive atheists inot thinking that evolution denies God when it doesn't, but Satan also then deceives theists like you into believing evolution is wrong so that you try to argue for theism by denying evolution. Since everyone can see for themselves that evolution is correct, this means that theism itself is brought into disrepute by theists! Satan enlists you to destroy theism! Pretty clever, don't you think?

So I am being very carefull when I research this stuff becuase I know that I can very easily be outwitted by Satan,

You already have been. But not in the manner you think.

I am relying on God to help me through this.

Then listen to what God tells you in His Creation about how He created and in the contradictions in the creation stories that neither are meant to be literal. So far I don't see you listening to God, but listening only to yourself in that you insist that your interpretation of the creation stories must be correct. In effect, instead of listening to God, you are telling God how He had to create! That's a lot more chutzpah than I have!

 

[Modus]

Modus, this is not a choice of creation or evolution. It's not theism vs atheism.

I agree, however I am not excluding the possibility of Satan decieving people. So again, forgive me for not just taking your word for it becuase I know that I can be tricked by Satan.

Modus, where does it say anywhere in the Bible that Satan had anything to do with Creation? Nowhere. All the statements about creation in the Bible say God, and God alone, created

Again, I agree that it doesn't say that Satan had anything to do with creation. I never said that he did, that was not my argument. I however did not rule out that he could decieve people into thinking something false. I noted that if evolution was false that Satan would have the power to decieve people into thinking it was true. People have been decieved into thinking God doesn't even exist! Evolution wouldn't be all that tough to get people to believe in it.

Thanks for destroying Christianity. With friends like you, Christianity doesn't need any enemies.

Destroying Christianity? Those are very strong accusations, but in all fairness, you are the one that assumed that my point was that Satan had something to do with the act of creation, however I will note that Satan did have a huge part on why the world is like it is today, and that is that when he tempted Adam and Eve and they sinned, the world fell. Satan is the prince of this world, and I really don't think God would allow Satan to mess with the evidence of creation. I do think that Satan could trick people into thinking the evidence was for evolution if it is false. He tricked people into thinking Jesus wasn't the Son of God, and the evidence doesn't get any better than mirracles performed right in front of your eyes!

Even if we now allow your argument that Satan changed Creation to only make it look old, because of you we now have to say that God allowed this to happen and didn't tell us. Tell me, what is the difference between someone who perpetrates a fraud and someone who knows it is a fraud but lets you continue to think it is genuine?

Let me ask you this then, a lot of people think Jesus is not God. Are you willing to say that becuase God allows us to be decieved that He is just as guilty as Satan?

God allows a lot of things to happen without "telling us" Take 911 for example, I have no doubt that Satan was behind that and that means God allowed it to happen. It doesn't mean God is as guilty as Satan or the people who carried out the act. Am I really the one who is destroying Christianity here?

OK. But let me suggest that the deception is not that evolution is wrong, but the deception is that evolution denies God! That is a more subtle deception, isn't it? And being subtle, it also deceives people like you into believing evolution is wrong! It's a two-fold deception. More bang for the buck.

That suggestion is fine, I pointed that out earlier. I will say again, that I am here to see for myself if evolution is a fact and to see if it does indeed contradict God's word. Let me ask you something though, why would Satan try and decieve me into thinking that evolution was wrong if it was true? That would only cause problems for him becuase when I became a christian, i gave my life to God and I serve Him by telling people about Jesus as well as clearing up misconceptions. If evolution was true and Satan decieved me into thinking it was false, I would be telling the people that believed evolution in place of God that it was false. Why on earth would Satan want that?

Matthew 12:26
If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

Not only does Satan deceive atheists inot thinking that evolution denies God when it doesn't, but Satan also then deceives theists like you into believing evolution is wrong so that you try to argue for theism by denying evolution. Since everyone can see for themselves that evolution is correct, this means that theism itself is brought into disrepute by theists! Satan enlists you to destroy theism! Pretty clever, don't you think?

You are going on the assumption that most people think that evolution conflicts with the bible. In my experience, most non believers think that it does. If I am right that most people who believe in evolution use it to replace God, then your statement says that I tell people that evolution is wrong and that it conflics with christianity and that they should believe in Christ over evolution. Believing in Christ over evolution is true even if evolution is true or false. Either way I would be sharing the gospel, weather or not I am wrong about evolution being true or false, it doesn't really matter unless they see that evolution does indeed better explain how the world was made. (again I know that is silly, but people believe it) So if worst comes to worst, i will have told them the gospell, then they will see that evolution is in fact true, they will research and then they will see if it does in fact contradict each other. so you see it wouldn't be the gospell that would be on the line, it would be evolution. In other words, Satan really doesn't have a motive for decieving me, becuase putting the gospell up next to evolution is just going to show people the truth no matter if evolution is true or false.

 

[lucaspa]

I agree, however I am not excluding the possibility of Satan decieving people.

Then the deception is that evolution is atheism, isn't it? Not that evolution is wrong.

Again, I agree that it doesn't say that Satan had anything to do with creation. I never said that he did, that was not my argument. I however did not rule out that he could decieve people into thinking something false. I noted that if evolution was false that Satan would have the power to decieve people into thinking it was true.

Sorry, but this doesn't follow. What is evolution based on? God's Creation. It is based on what we can see in God's Creation. Since you say that nothing in God's Creation was put there by Satan, then Satan can't be deceiving us into thinking it is true when it is false. Because we can always go back to God and check!

The only way Satan could do as you say is if Satan changed God's Creation and put false evidence in it. Since you say Satan did not, your conclusion isn't valid.

People have been decieved into thinking God doesn't even exist!

This is not deception. It's how God works. For whatever reason, God does not require that we believe He exists. One of the very strong theological messages of Genesis 1 is that God does not require worship. He made humans for themselves, not for Him. So, since God does not communicate with everyone personally, it is rational and reasonable to believe God does not exist. It's not deception on anyone's part.

Evolution wouldn't be all that tough to get people to believe in it.

Yes, it would. Remember, evolution isn't atheism. To get us to accept evolution when it is not true means planting a lot of false evidence in Creation. Evidence that falsifies creationism and evidence that supports evolution. Since you say this can't have been done, then it is impossible to get us to "believe" it because we can always go back and check with God in His Creation on the matter.

Destroying Christianity? Those are very strong accusations,

Yep. and I meant them. I notice you haven't rebutted my reasoning.

Satan is the prince of this world, and I really don't think God would allow Satan to mess with the evidence of creation. I do think that Satan could trick people into thinking the evidence was for evolution if it is false.

How can Satan do that? After all, we simply go back and check the evidence God put in Creation. If that evidence showed evolution to be false, then we would see it. That evidence showed creationism to be false.

He tricked people into thinking Jesus wasn't the Son of God, and the evidence doesn't get any better than mirracles performed right in front of your eyes!

I must have missed this. Where did Satan do any tricking in this subject? What Bible verses state this?

Let me ask you this then, a lot of people think Jesus is not God. Are you willing to say that becuase God allows us to be decieved that He is just as guilty as Satan?

Thinking Jesus is not God is not deception. It may be wrong, but that doesn't make it deception. Jesus himself was very vague on the matter. The most common term he used to refer to himself was "son of man" and that wasn't very helpful. It wasn't until after the Resurrection that his followers put forward this theory. Many of the early Christians disagreed. They were Adpotionists and thought that Jesus was completely human and was the adopted son of God. Jehovah's Witnesses continue that tradition today. So, that people reached a conclusion you don't agree with does not constitute "deception".

God allows a lot of things to happen without "telling us" Take 911 for example, I have no doubt that Satan was behind that and that means God allowed it to happen. It doesn't mean God is as guilty as Satan or the people who carried out the act. Am I really the one who is destroying Christianity here?

Yes. Because you are trying to pit God vs God. God can only lose in such a battle. You are pitting God in His Creation against what you say is God in Genesis 1-3. But you have confused yourself with God. You have forgotten that we are not dealing with God in Genesis 1-3, but your interpretation of what you think God said there. Rather than swallow your pride and admit that your interpretation is in trouble, you end up denying God.

That suggestion is fine, I pointed that out earlier. I will say again, that I am here to see for myself if evolution is a fact and to see if it does indeed contradict God's word. Let me ask you something though, why would Satan try and decieve me into thinking that evolution was wrong if it was true? That would only cause problems for him becuase when I became a christian, i gave my life to God and I serve Him by telling people about Jesus as well as clearing up misconceptions. If evolution was true and Satan decieved me into thinking it was false, I would be telling the people that believed evolution in place of God that it was false. Why on earth would Satan want that? [/quote]
1. Notice that you have said "the people that believed evolution in place of God" See? You have already swallowed one deception -- that those who believe in evolution don't believe in God. Implied in that is that you can't believe in God if you accept evolution.

2. Because people can see for themselves that evolution is true. So, if you are telling them evolution is false when they know it is true and saying that they can't believe in God if they accept evolution, people will do what they always do: take their experience over yours. So they will say "evolution is true and therefore, according to you, I must reject God. So be it." You turn into a recruiting agent for atheism!

3. Not only that, but by tying Christianity to creationism, you have made a way to falsify God! Not a correct way, but you are saying it is correct. So, if people really do believe you, then you will have shown them how to falsify God. Another recruitment for atheism.

If I am right that most people who believe in evolution use it to replace God,

Big "if". And wrong. http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp

I tell people that evolution is wrong and that it conflics with christianity and that they should believe in Christ over evolution.

Which is wrong. That isn't the choice. Again, they can see evolution is correct. But you are making it a choice of Christ or evolution. Not a choice of Christ and evolution. Since they can see for themselves that evolution is true, but have to trust you that Christ is true, they will reject Christ in favor of what they can see for themselves is true. And thus you end up driving people away, not bringing them to Christ.

Believing in Christ over evolution is true even if evolution is true or false.

You are blind, aren't you? Listen to yourself! "Believing in Christ over evolution". What is this "over" nonsense? Why have you put them in competition??!!

In other words, Satan really doesn't have a motive for decieving me, becuase putting the gospell up next to evolution is just going to show people the truth no matter if evolution is true or false.

Not the way you are doing it. I really hope you can see this. Because you are a walking Typhoid Mary for harming Christianity.