Creationist Arguments Against ERV's

[Loudmouth]

You are the one that said it was low and rare when you said, "independent insertions would produce insertions at the same base only on very rare occasions."

In that scenario, ERV's not at the same base would be plentiful and easily detectable.

It happened to modern humans and apes independently. So you were right, it's very rare.

The ERV's are found at the same bases which demonstrates that they were not independent.

The first modern human was created from the cells of a prehistoric ape, just as Eve was created from the cells of Adam.

Scientists would not have concluded that Eve was created from Adam. They would have concluded common ancestry.

How is that any different that regular childbirth? What you need is evidence that differs from evolution and standard reproduction. Have any?

Re-creation with modification can be easily mistaken for descent with modification.

How convenient.

Biblical history is evidence.

Stories in books are claims, not evidence.

And the fact that modern humans and apes share similar DNA is evidence that the first modern human was re-created from an ape.

And yet you can't show us any evidence that is inconsistent with observed natural processes.

 

[Loudmouth]

The DNA and ERVs of the common ancestor of Chimps and the sons of God (prehistoric people) were inserted in the only way they could be inserted in the genome and that is sexually. Gen 6:4 Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry when the Ark arrived some 10k years ago.

If we are also descended from humans that do not share common ancestry with chimps then we should find pre-integration sites throughout the human genome for ERVs that are fixed in numerous other primate species. We don't see that.

 

[Loudmouth]

To say life springs out of errors, mistakes, mutations and viruses does not seem natural to me.

That would be a logical fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

 

[Loudmouth]

That is a theory that some believe. I actually have no problem with evolution per say. Some religions believe the whole universe started out as a seed the size of a mustard seed. Yet Evolutionists do not want purpose or intent, they want blind random errors to be the author of life.

Any comment on ERV's, which happen to be the topic?

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes, and you are relying on those natural observations to arrive at a natural explanation for an event that could have been super-natural.

In other words, no amount of evidence will ever change your mind.

I find it very disingenuous for creationists to ask for such things as observations of abiogenesis and speciation in the lab when they could care less for such observations. As you have so perfectly shown, even when we have the observations you reject them. So why do you ever ask for any observations when you will just turn around and ignore them?

 

[joshua 1 9]

That would be a logical fallacy.

Not even close, nice try though.

 

[Aman777]

If we are also descended from humans that do not share common ancestry with chimps then we should find pre-integration sites throughout the human genome for ERVs that are fixed in numerous other primate species. We don't see that.

ERVs in the Human population are NOT measured individually but ONLY in populations over time. Slowly changing the DNA and ERVs of Humans over the past 10k years has confused geneticists into thinking that the change is "natural". That's because Science has REJECTED God's Word which tells us exactly HOW and WHEN prehistoric people INHERITED Adam's Human intelligence through SEX (Gen 6:4) instead of magical mysterious never to be repeated again False Theory of Evolution. Amen?

 

[Loudmouth]

ERVs in the Human population are NOT measured individually but ONLY in populations over time.

Individual human genomes are searched for ERV's and compared.

http://hapmap.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Slowly changing the DNA and ERVs of Humans over the past 10k years has confused geneticists into thinking that the change is "natural".

How do you slowly change DNA to make it look like an ERV?

That's because Science has REJECTED God's Word which tells us exactly HOW and WHEN prehistoric people INHERITED Adam's Human intelligence through SEX (Gen 6:4) instead of magical mysterious never to be repeated again False Theory of Evolution. Amen?

How did 200,000 of Adam's ERV pre-integration sites not make it into the modern population? Are you saying that we carry none of Adam's DNA?

 

[Loudmouth]

Not even close, nice try though.

"I can't believe it" is a fallacious argument. No two ways about it. Do you have evidence to present, or are you just going to ignore the evidence that has been presented?

 

[joshua 1 9]

So you are saying that Satan changed our DNA to make it look like evolution happened?

That is not MY theory, it is just a theory floating around right now. I think it does not matter where the ERV's come from. Evolutionists are just using them as a marker. Of course Christians believe that retro virus and mutations are the work of Satan. But that is just a diversion from the discussion of the ERV's showing common descent. There maybe a creationist web site that has an argument against ERV's but as a marker I do not have anything.

 

[joshua 1 9]

How did 200,000 of Adam's ERV pre-integration sites not make it into the modern population? Are you saying that we carry none of Adam's DNA?

We are gentiles, adopted into the Family of God. Adam was in the Middle East from what Science calls Ancient Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates river in the vast flood plain there. Known as the Euphrates river valley. The Hebrew people today do seem to have those 200,000 ERV's showing that the Adam that God put into the Garden of Eden must have evolved from a common ancestor with whatever you think it was. That is what the current scientific evidence is showing. Even though science does often prove to be wrong. There is no conflict and no contradictions between science and the Bible.

 

[bhsmte]

That is not MY theory, it is just a theory floating around right now. I think it does not matter where the ERV's come from. Evolutionists are just using them as a marker. Of course Christians believe that retro virus and mutations are the work of Satan. But that is just a diversion from the discussion of the ERV's showing common descent. There maybe a creationist web site that has an argument against ERV's but as a marker I do not have anything.

Are you saying all Christians claim retro virus's and mutations are the work of Satan?

 

[joshua 1 9]

The evidence is inside the genome of the Seven Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) who are alive on Planet Earth today. Amen?

The Seven Billion Humans descended from the Time magazine science Adam. Not the Bible Adam in the Garden of Eden.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Are you saying all Christians claim retro virus's and mutations are the work of Satan?

I am leaning in that direction. But retros do not have anything to do with causing evolution. They are used as a neutral marker. I have made it known that I reject the mutation theory. That maybe a sore point for evolutionists because it is all they have to work with right now. They do not have anything to replace that theory with.

All Christians accept that we live in a world that is in a fallen state and in need of redemption. At some point people do have to make a choice to be considered a Christian. There is no fence sitting allowed.

 

[Loudmouth]

That is not MY theory, it is just a theory floating around right now.

It is a theory that you are floating here. If you aren't going to defend it, then we can move on.

Besides, it seems kind of silly anyway. Could you imagine a defense lawyer using this "'theory"? "Members of the jury, you must find my client not guilty because it is obvious to everyone that Satan planted his fingerprints and DNA at the crime scene".

I think it does not matter where the ERV's come from. Evolutionists are just using them as a marker.

They can be used as a marker because of where they come from. It is the random nature of retroviral insertion that makes them viable genetic markers for common ancestry.

Of course Christians believe that retro virus and mutations are the work of Satan.

Beliefs are fine for church, but they are completely irrelevant in science.

 

[Loudmouth]

But retros do not have anything to do with causing evolution.

Why don't they? The long tandem repeats (LTR) that flank the retroviral genome can certainly increase gene expression of genes downstream from the LTR. The function of LTR's is to cause the host translational systems to overexpress viral proteins.

Also, a retrovirus may have played a key role in the evolution of placental mammals:

Nature. 2000 Feb 17;403(6771):785-9.

Syncytin is a captive retroviral envelope protein involved in human placental morphogenesis.

Mi S1, Lee X, Li X, Veldman GM, Finnerty H, Racie L, LaVallie E, Tang XY, Edouard P, Howes S, Keith JC Jr, McCoy JM.

Many mammalian viruses have acquired genes from their hosts during their evolution. The rationale for these acquisitions is usually quite clear: the captured genes are subverted to provide a selective advantage to the virus. Here we describe the opposite situation, where a viral gene has been sequestered to serve an important function in the physiology of a mammalian host. This gene, encoding a protein that we have called syncytin, is the envelope gene of a recently identified human endogenous defective retrovirus, HERV-W. We find that the major sites of syncytin expression are placental syncytiotrophoblasts, multinucleated cells that originate from fetal trophoblasts. We show that expression of recombinant syncytin in a wide variety of cell types induces the formation of giant syncytia, and that fusion of a human trophoblastic cell line expressing endogenous syncytin can be inhibited by an anti-syncytin antiserum. Our data indicate that syncytin may mediate placental cytotrophoblast fusion in vivo, and thus may be important in human placental morphogenesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10693809​

Nonetheless, ERV's provide smoking gun proof that we share a common ancestor with chimps. If you want to argue that Satan fakes evidence, I guess you are free to do so. However, it does make you look a bit silly and dogmatic.

They are used as a neutral marker.

They are used as a marker, regardless of whether they are neutral, beneficial, or detrimental. It is the random nature of retrovirus insertion that makes them a viable marker. It has nothing to do with their function, or possible lack thereof.

I have made it known that I reject the mutation theory. That maybe a sore point for evolutionists because it is all they have to work with right now. They do not have anything to replace that theory with.

Science could care less if you reject mutation theory since you have nothing to back it up with. If differences in DNA do not explain the differences between species, then you need to show what does. I have yet to see you come up with a reason why chimps and humans look different other than differences in DNA.

All Christians accept that we live in a world that is in a fallen state and in need of redemption. At some point people do have to make a choice to be considered a Christian. There is no fence sitting allowed.

Reality has this characteristic of not caring what humans believe.

 

[Loudmouth]

We are gentiles, adopted into the Family of God. Adam was in the Middle East from what Science calls Ancient Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates river in the vast flood plain there. Known as the Euphrates river valley. The Hebrew people today do seem to have those 200,000 ERV's showing that the Adam that God put into the Garden of Eden must have evolved from a common ancestor with whatever you think it was. That is what the current scientific evidence is showing. Even though science does often prove to be wrong. There is no conflict and no contradictions between science and the Bible.

Aman777 is saying that this Adam did not descend from a common ancestor shared with chimps. Therefore, there is no reason that Adam would have those ERV's, according to Aman. Instead, Adam would have over 200,000 pre-integration sites for ERV's that are fixed in multiple primate species. The only human ERV's that are not fixed in the human population are recent HERV-K insertions, just as we would expect from an ongoing invasion of the human genome since splitting from the common ancestor shared with chimps. Those HERV-K insertions that are not fixed in the human population are also specific to humans which attests to their recent activity.

 

[Aman777]

Individual human genomes are searched for ERV's and compared.

http://hapmap.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
How do you slowly change DNA to make it look like an ERV?

How did 200,000 of Adam's ERV pre-integration sites not make it into the modern population? Are you saying that we carry none of Adam's DNA?

Humans are like storage vessels for ERVs of prehistoric creatures of all kinds on this Planet. Whether Humans (Adam's descendants) have exactly the SAME ERVs as people who evolved from the water at God's command, I just don't know.

Remind me to ask Jesus when He returns to rule and reign for a thousand years. God made prehistoric people so that they could have children with Humans. Gen 6:4 It should be easy for Him to make it look like we all came from the common ancestor of Apes and thus giving everyone a Free Choice to believe the godless views of men, who have rejected God's Truth in Genesis, or to believe God? It's your choice. Amen?

 

[Loudmouth]

Humans are like storage vessels for ERVs of prehistoric creatures of all kinds on this Planet.

Just as much as they are storage vessels for pre-integration sites.

Whether Humans (Adam's descendants) have exactly the SAME ERVs as people who evolved from the water at God's command, I just don't know.

Are you saying that modern humans have no DNA from Adam?

Remind me to ask Jesus when He returns to rule and reign for a thousand years. God made prehistoric people so that they could have children with Humans. Gen 6:4 It should be easy for Him to make it look like we all came from the common ancestor of Apes and thus giving everyone a Free Choice to believe the godless views of men, who have rejected God's Truth in Genesis, or to believe God? It's your choice. Amen?

Sorry, but made up fantasies are not reality.

 

[bhsmte]

I am leaning in that direction. But retros do not have anything to do with causing evolution. They are used as a neutral marker. I have made it known that I reject the mutation theory. That maybe a sore point for evolutionists because it is all they have to work with right now. They do not have anything to replace that theory with.

All Christians accept that we live in a world that is in a fallen state and in need of redemption. At some point people do have to make a choice to be considered a Christian. There is no fence sitting allowed.

I would appear, you claim to be able to speak for the vast majority of Christians.