Creationism - the easy way out?

[Maccie]

It has puzzled me for a long time as to why so many people argue so vehemently for creation and against evolution. And why so many creationists live in the USA.

Firstly, it seems to me that creationism is the easy way to think about our world. You don't have to worry about geology - if mountains show evidence of volcanic origin - well, God made them that way. Folded strata of sedimentary rocks - well, God made them that way. Indications that life began millions of years ago, well, God made us think it was that way. Sedimentary rocks - the flood. Fossils - the flood. Animals now extinct - the flood.

Differences in homo sapiens can be explained by a sort of later adaptation. All the other homo species - well, they are just not related to us. Forget it.

And of course, as mankind has been given dominion over the animals and the earth, then the wreckage of his activities, the pollution caused by gas emissions etc. - well, that's just us exercising our dominion. Isnt it? It will probably bring the end nearer, but that's OK - all Christians (well, maybe not all - there are those terrible liberals/non-protestants who will probably go to Hell) will go to Heaven.

And then there are the Americans who believe passionately in creationism. Believe me, it simply isn't an issue in the UK. Oh yes, there are some who believe in creationism. Occasionally they will put their case to the world, but generally they just gather in their fundamentalist churches and keep quiet. In the educational world, apart from the odd Christian school, evolution is taught, not creationism, and there would be an outcry if creationism was taught in State Schools.

Maybe it goes along with the US view that all Americans are superior to all other men and women? Maybe it goes along with being the biggest (I'm not saying the greatest!) country on earth. Maybe it goes along with their perception that they have the moral right to interfere in the politics and way of life in other countries. Maybe, just maybe, it goes along with what I have heard is the abysmal ignorance on the part of the average American of the rest of the world.

And creationism means you don't have to think, or find out what others believe. If its in the Bible, especially the first 11 chapters of Genesis, well, that's it, isn't it? No discussion needed. Full stop.

From a humble European given a soul by God, and brought to her maturity after thousands of millions of years of evolution!

 

[Micaiah]

It has puzzled me for a long time as to why so many people argue so vehemently for creation and against evolution. And why so many creationists live in the USA.

Debates such as these have raged for a long time in many countries.

Firstly, it seems to me that creationism is the easy way to think about our world. You don't have to worry about geology - if mountains show evidence of volcanic origin - well, God made them that way. Folded strata of sedimentary rocks - well, God made them that way. Indications that life began millions of years ago, well, God made us think it was that way. Sedimentary rocks - the flood. Fossils - the flood. Animals now extinct - the flood.

Differences in homo sapiens can be explained by a sort of later adaptation. All the other homo species - well, they are just not related to us. Forget it.

We believe that:

Scripture is inspired by God.

God is truthful, and cannot lie.

The assertions of fact made in Scripture, whethere they are historical or scientific, are truthful, in accordance with the nature of God.

Genesis is a God inspired historical account of Creation.

The practical implication of these beliefs is that if God says the earth was created in six days, then we can depend on this as truth without the need for scientific validation.

Is this easier than trying to make this discovery scientifically. Yes, it certainly is. A six year old can read the account of creation and know more than an atheistic PHD professor who has spent his life time researching the topic. Is the six year old 'smarter' than the PHD professor. No, he just has more faith in God.

That is not to say we do not spend a lot of time investigating things scientifically. There are several international Christian groups who employ many people to do just that.

And of course, as mankind has been given dominion over the animals and the earth, then the wreckage of his activities, the pollution caused by gas emissions etc. - well, that's just us exercising our dominion. Isnt it?

That is 'bearing false witness'. (I thought you guys believed only we did that). We believe the earth should be properly managed because of our trust in God's teaching on the subject in Scripture.

It will probably bring the end nearer, but that's OK - all Christians (well, maybe not all - there are those terrible liberals/non-protestants who will probably go to Hell) will go to Heaven.

Don't get carried away here. You are new to this forum, so don't ssume we are the same as the other YEC's you may have encountered. I do not know of any YEC's on this forum who would claim that all TE's and liberals are going to hell, or that all YEC's are going to heaven by virture of their beliefs on the topic alone.

And then there are the Americans who believe passionately in creationism. Believe me, it simply isn't an issue in the UK. Oh yes, there are some who believe in creationism. Occasionally they will put their case to the world, but generally they just gather in their fundamentalist churches and keep quiet. In the educational world, apart from the odd Christian school, evolution is taught, not creationism, and there would be an outcry if creationism was taught in State Schools.

America is fortunate to have such a great Christian heritage. I wish I could say the same for Australia.

Maybe it goes along with the US view that all Americans are superior to all other men and women? Maybe it goes along with being the biggest (I'm not saying the greatest!) country on earth. Maybe it goes along with their perception that they have the moral right to interfere in the politics and way of life in other countries. Maybe, just maybe, it goes along with what I have heard is the abysmal ignorance on the part of the average American of the rest of the world.

You are straying off the subject here. What does this have to do with the question of origins. You seem to have a degree of racial prejudice.

And creationism means you don't have to think, or find out what others believe. If its in the Bible, especially the first 11 chapters of Genesis, well, that's it, isn't it? No discussion needed. Full stop.

See comments above

From a humble European given a soul by God, and brought to her maturity after thousands of millions of years of evolution!

Humble isn't the word I'd use. Certainly confused.

 

[Maccie]

America is fortunate to have such a great Christian heritage. I wish I could say the same for Australia.

I never mentioned Australia. Britain's Christian heritage goes back to the 3td or 4th Century. I rather think we exported it to the USA! (OK, that is a tangent!)

Quote:

Maybe it goes along with the US view that all Americans are superior to all other men and women? Maybe it goes along with being the biggest (I'm not saying the greatest!) country on earth. Maybe it goes along with their perception that they have the moral right to interfere in the politics and way of life in other countries. Maybe, just maybe, it goes along with what I have heard is the abysmal ignorance on the part of the average American of the rest of the world.

You are straying off the subject here. What does this have to do with the question of origins. You seem to have a degree of racial prejudice.

No, it was in my original OP as to why creationism was so prevalent in the US. And are Americans a "race"? No, I certainly have no racial prejudices. But I still wonder why creationism is so prevalent in the USA.

We believe the earth should be properly managed because of our trust in God's teaching on the subject in Scripture.

OK, another tangent - why doesn't the US sign the Kyoto agreement then?

Humble isn't the word I'd use. Certainly confused.

OK, you don't think I'm humble. You are entitled to your opinion. However, I am definitely not confused!!

 

[grmorton]

And then there are the Americans who believe passionately in creationism. Believe me, it simply isn't an issue in the UK. Oh yes, there are some who believe in creationism. Occasionally they will put their case to the world, but generally they just gather in their fundamentalist churches and keep quiet. In the educational world, apart from the odd Christian school, evolution is taught, not creationism, and there would be an outcry if creationism was taught in State Schools.

Maybe it goes along with the US view that all Americans are superior to all other men and women? Maybe it goes along with being the biggest (I'm not saying the greatest!) country on earth. Maybe it goes along with their perception that they have the moral right to interfere in the politics and way of life in other countries. Maybe, just maybe, it goes along with what I have heard is the abysmal ignorance on the part of the average American of the rest of the world.

At the risk of taking this thread elsewhere, I must object to your characterization of Americans thinking they are superior. I lived for several years in your country and I can assure you that the Europeans clearly think they are superior to us and to the US, including many in the UK. Europe disdains us when we get involved in other people's affairs. Take Kosovo. We didn't want to be there, but you Europeans wouldn't clean up your own problem and begged us to get involved and then, like a Dutch citizen with whom I had this same conversation, said that we were arrogant busy bodies. You can't have it both ways. You can't beg us to go into Serbia, Rwanda, and every other trouble spot in the world and then bash us for doing your bidding when we do it. It is highly hypocritical. Why should our boys die for your failures to clean up your own continent?

As to creationism in the UK, it is growing but you all aren't paying attention. I went to several creationist churches while I was there and their membership is growing far beyond that of the rather empty (both physically and theologically) state churches.

And creationism means you don't have to think, or find out what others believe. If its in the Bible, especially the first 11 chapters of Genesis, well, that's it, isn't it? No discussion needed. Full stop.

ON this we fully agree.

From a humble European given a soul by God, and brought to her maturity after thousands of millions of years of evolution!

Not so humble. If you were humble, you wouldn't have written such an inherently superior-sounding, work of condescension as you just wrote. Are you trying to say that calling other people "abysmally ignorant" isn't an attempt to feel superior? When you say the Americans have "abysmal ignorance" about the rest of the world, do you know how abysmally ignorant most things I heard from the BBC and my colleagues about the US sounded to me? They know nothing of the US and they know it with utter confidence. The stupid things I heard on the BBC about our election system (back in 2000) made me laugh and then cry for the serious stupidity of the BBC.

By the way, we are not the biggest country on earth (what do they teach in your schools over there anyway?). By population China is much bigger. In area, Russia is still bigger. It has 17 million square kilometers vs. 9.6 for the US. Please get your facts correct when trying to sound superior and call others abysmally ignorant about the rest of the world. You didn't do such a good job there.

Not so humbly from this guy who loved his time in your country(and indeed loves your country) but abhorred the total misunderstandings and misinformtion y'all have about us.

 

[Euryale]

I don't think you'll find many instances of the UK "begging" the US to get involved in continental European affairs. The British for the most part don't even see themselves as European.

 

[grmorton]

I don't think you'll find many instances of the UK "begging" the US to get involved in continental European affairs. The British for the most part don't even see themselves as European.

Would WWI and WWII, Greece in 1948 count? You can't believe the number of times during discussions on world affairs while I was living there that people would say, "The US has to get involved to solve this one".

While you are correct that a lot of the Brits don't consider themselves European, you all are part of the European continent and the EU, if you haven't noticed. I would agree that it is only a 50-50 chance that you all will say yes to the euro.

All that being said, It galls me when a person, like Maccie, can't get her own facts straight about the world outside of Britain (like which country is biggest) and then calls everyone in the US abysmally ignorant.

 

[Euryale]

I think she was meaning "biggest" in an impact sense and not population or geographical area.

As for your comment about the election system, I don't know the comments the BBC aired, but I have often found that foreign comments on the idiocy of the US election system are spot on.

 

[Thanatosimii]

Well this has gone... tangenty. Perhaps we should deal with the actual question. There is no way, whatsoever, no matter how it is interpereted, for the bible to be compatible with evolution. Ever. Genesis 3 explicitally states that men die because of sin. Unless god created a little intellegent amobea named adam and he sinned, none of the fossils of man or anything else could have been laid down until after the fall. Evolution requires death to make life, God forbade it outright.

 

[Micaiah]

Welcome to the forum. Nice to have another YEC on board. I agree with your sentiments as I am a YEC, but you need to be more careful in the assertions you make. We seek to promote what the Scriptures actually teach, and should offer our arguments with the care they deserve.

Well this has gone... tangenty. Perhaps we should deal with the actual question. There is no way, whatsoever, no matter how it is interpereted, for the bible to be compatible with evolution. Ever.

Not strictly correct. The TE's have their own interpretation which allows them to dismiss the assertions in Genesis by labelling it myth. Obviously their interpretation is wrong. Genesis is plainly intended to be understood as a historical record of real events and real people. Evolution and Genesis are incompatible.

Genesis 3 explicitally states that men die because of sin. Unless god created a little intellegent amobea named adam and he sinned, none of the fossils of man or anything else could have been laid down until after the fall. Evolution requires death to make life, God forbade it outright.

Yes indeed. The idea that God used death, pain, disesase, and suffering to bring about a creation He pronounced very good is an attack on the character of God.

 

[herev]

Obviously their interpretation is wrong.

Well, why didn't you say so earlier, you could have saved us so much work in the way of posting.


[move]Attention all TE's: we can stop now, we have gotten word from The Micaiah--we're obviously wrong, let's go home.[/move]

 

[Micaiah]

I enjoy your sense of humour Herev.

 

[herev]

thanks, Micaiah, same here, as my grandaddy used to say--you're a good egg

 

[Euryale]

Well this has gone... tangenty. Perhaps we should deal with the actual question. There is no way, whatsoever, no matter how it is interpereted, for the bible to be compatible with evolution. Ever. Genesis 3 explicitally states that men die because of sin. Unless god created a little intellegent amobea named adam and he sinned, none of the fossils of man or anything else could have been laid down until after the fall. Evolution requires death to make life, God forbade it outright.

And the Bible states grasshoppers have 4 legs. They don't so lets not get carried away with what is obviously true and what is not. Because as it stands the Bible is seemingly incompatible with a good portion of the Class Insecta yet we know grasshoppers have 6 legs.

 

[grmorton]

I think she was meaning "biggest" in an impact sense and not population or geographical area.

She can probably speak for herself

As for your comment about the election system, I don't know the comments the BBC aired, but I have often found that foreign comments on the idiocy of the US election system are spot on.

Oh really? Without knowing what was said? You are much smarter than the average bear. One of the things that was said was that the winner of the popular vote would win the election. They have no concept of the electoral college, or its purpose. One should ask David Kelly if he thought the BBC was spot on with their reporting. (for those who don't know who David Kelly was, do a google on him, Iraq and BBC. The chairman of the BBC basically resigned because the reporter kinda made stuff up http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3434661.stm)

 

[Euryale]

I said I wasn't familiar with the specif BBC comments that were aired. I was referring to other comments I have heard about the US election system

Are you familiar with the Neubauer-Zeitlin analysis?

 

[Micaiah]

And the Bible states grasshoppers have 4 legs. They don't so lets not get carried away with what is obviously true and what is not. Because as it stands the Bible is seemingly incompatible with a good portion of the Class Insecta yet we know grasshoppers have 6 legs.

They did when I finsihed with them.

Where does it say in Scripture that grasshoppers have four legs?

 

[Maccie]

Well, now you have all finished slagging me off, and gone on to more tangents than I ever introduced - ?grasshoppers?? - perhaps we could get back to my original question.

It has puzzled me for a long time as to why so many people argue so vehemently for creation and against evolution. And why so many creationists live in the USA.

Firstly, it seems to me that creationism is the easy way to think about our world.

Why do so many creationists live in the USA, and why do they argue so passionately for their beliefs? Yes, I know there are some in the UK, but honestly, we don't hear much from them. Let alone at election time. And evolution v creationism simply isn't an issue in State schools. Maybe it has something to do with our education system, I don't know.

And I still think creationism is the easy way out! Just read the first 11 chapters of genesis and you don't have to worry about geology, geography, biology, anthropology etc. etc.

No-one on this thread has even tried to answer these questions. You have been too busy telling me I'm confused, ignorant, etc. etc.

Now, biggest country can equal 'makes the most noise'; 'has the most influence'; 'has the biggest economy'; 'has the highest literacy rate'; 'has the biggest army'; choose your own!

As for abysmal ignorance of the average American person, I did mean geographically. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. I am sure you all are very clued up on the 2nd law of thermodynamics. However, I do wonder how many Americans could point to exactly where Iraq is on the globe, or say for certain where London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow are. I did read the results of some survey or other that indicated some Americans were not actually too sure where Europe was. And yes, we have ignorant people in the UK too (geographically that is. I doubt they would know exactly where New York is. But then geography is not taught as it was in my young day!)

So lets leave the grasshoppers alone, and get back to what I originally asked.

 

[Micaiah]

Maccie,
I thought we had answered your questions.

Yes, there are many Americans who accept that Genesis is a record of real events and real people. America has a great Christian heritage, and has many fine Christians.

Yes the Creation account greatly simplifies life, and the search for truth on origins. Thankyou God.

I had an early fascination of grasshoppers that extend back to my preschool days. My earliest foray into biology verified that grasshoppers jumping ability is seriously hampered without the hind legs. Snails were a different story. They were simply delicious!

Leviticus 11
20 " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. 21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.

Interesting. The Jews were born with the technology (fingers) to number the legs on an insect. Wonder why they said they had four not six.

 

[Maccie]

OK, so there are a lot of US Christians who believe in creationism. Do you know the proportions of those who believe in Creationism and those who don't?

But why do they make such a to do about it, argue about it so passionately, insist it is taught in schools?

After all, believing in creationism is not essential to salvation is it?

 

[artybloke]

The problem with real science is that it is difficult. It involves horribly intricate and complicated maths, it involves accurate measuring and it involves, above all, the kind of provisionality of conclusion that must drive people who like absolute certainty up the wall.

No amount of evidence can absolutely prove evolution, or the age of the earth, or gravity, or atom theory or any other scientific theory we rely on every day. There's always, however unlikely, the possibility that the sun will not come up tomorrow. That's the nature of scientific knowledge: it depends on observation and our observations, however accurate, could be wrong, misunderstood etc...

Now, to me, the difficulty of science means that it's a good thing on the whole. But an awful lot of people want truth in bite-sized chunks that can easily be digested. Along comes the preacher, who can tell us "it's written here," or "the truth is ABC", or "don't bother your pretty little head about that difficult stuff, here's a nice little package of wrapped-up truths for you."

And because people have hard lives, with not much time in them, they don't think, "maybe this is too simple, maybe I should think a little harder, learn a little advanced maths," they just say "Thank you, Reverend X, for giving us a nice plateful of meaty digestible chunks we don't have to chew on too hard."

Thus, the little Hitlers and demagogues and fundamentalist preachers of this world persuade ordinary people to follow them. Because it's so much easier to let someone else do your thinking for you. So much easier to just let go and let the Reverend X tell you what the Bible says.