Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

[Tomk80]

Just a few off the top of my head, there are plenty more.

The Noahic flood never happened. There is no evidence for such an event happening, and instead there is a great amount of evidence that shows it as not even possible.

The Earth is not 6000 years old. Though not directly stated as such by the Bible, it is implied as truth by those who insist on a literal inerrant Bible.

Adam and Eve were not the first people. The first humans originated in Africa, and migrated northward.

Languages did not originate from the Tower of Babel. languages developed in geographically isolated groups across the world.

You cannot cure leprosy as described in the Bible, don't have the passage handy.

The Earth is not flat.

The Sun does not revolve around the Earth.


All of this is claimed as true in the Bible, but has been shown by Science to be quite false.

To add, the sun is a star (according to the KJV it is not) and the moon is not a light (according to the KJV it is).

Also according to the KJV (Genesis 30), showing striped sticks to goats before they give birth produces striped/spotted offspring. I guess genetics must be wrong then.

 

[JohnR7]

Which only means that they don't fully comprehend the problem or that they are without a means by which to correct the problem.

Exactly, when you have taken full advantage of everything that man has to offer you, then it is time to turn to God and that is exactly what I did. I found solutions and I found answers that science did not have to offer in any of their books. I searched and searched and searched for many, many years and I finally came to the conclusion that man and science did not have the answers I was looking for and they did not have the solutions I needed for my problems.

If it were not got God, if I had to rely on 911, I am convinced I would not be here. If you want to deceive yourself into thinking that man did it and God had no part of it, then that is up to you. But you will never convince me of that and you will never convince my wife. You can only allow yourself to be deceived into thinking that God did not have a part of it.

If I have to choose between science and God, then I will choose God. But science is a gift from God, so that is not a choice that we have to make. Even He allows the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

God Created this world in a way so that you can understand it. If He did not give it to you to understand, then you would not be able to understand. You only understand what you do, because God has given it to you to understand the things of science.

But go ahead and try to show me how you think that you have understanding apart from God. But also I will tell you, that if I have to live in a world without God, then I want no part of it. Never have and I never well want any part of a world that God is not a part of.

 

[JohnR7]

To add, the sun is a star (according to the KJV it is not) and the moon is not a light (according to the KJV it is).

What university did you get your Phd from in Theology so that you feel that your a expert and can tell us all about the Bible?

 

[OdwinOddball]

What university did you get your Phd from in Theology so that you feel that your a expert and can tell us all about the Bible?

One does not need to be an expert to read a book. Its there in the Kings English for all to read.

 

[Tomk80]

What university did you get your Phd from in Theology so that you feel that your a expert and can tell us all about the Bible?

I can't tell you all about the bible. I can read english, dutch and german though and it is pretty clear it differentiates between the sun and stars and claims the moon is a 'light' just as the sun in all those languages. Read it yourself, it's in the bible, Genesis 1:14. Get it in your bookstores while it's hot!

It is logical that someone from the 10th century before christ would think that, so I don't know why you would want to deny that it says so?

 

[Jase]

What university did you get your Phd from in Theology so that you feel that your a expert and can tell us all about the Bible?

Seems like a pretty big issue if one requires a Ph.D in theology to properly read the Bible. Sounds like the Catholic doctrine that only the clergy can interpret the Bible correctly. Either the Bible is available to all, or it isn't.

 

[JohnR7]

Seems like a pretty big issue if one requires a Ph.D in theology to properly read the Bible.

No more or less than what we require for Science. Most all of the major denominations require someone to have a college degree before they can attend seminary.

But what degree do you feel is sufficent, a 2 year degree, a four year degree, a masters, Phd? How much do you think they should know before you would considered them qualified in their area of study?

 

[JohnR7]

I can't tell you all about the bible.

You have not demonstrated that to me at all. What else do you feel qualifed to tell us about? Medicine, biology, physics? Are you only an expert on the Bible or are you an expert on other areas of study also?

 

[Edx]

No more or less than what we require for Science. Most all of the major denominations require someone to have a college degree before they can attend seminary.

But what degree do you feel is sufficent, a 2 year degree, a four year degree, a masters, Phd? How much do you think they should know before you would considered them qualified in their area of study?

Point is Creationists claim God preserved his "word", Ive heard many claim that it has ben be read as it is written, but if you need to understand ancient Hebrew to do that God didnt to a great job preserving his word if it can get so distorted if you translate it.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Either the Bible is available to all, or it isn't.


that simply is not true.
listen to a 450 year old document explain why

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

WCF Chapter 1

note:
not all things are clear. some things do take a ThD. to understand and then all of them don't agree.

but all the things necessary for salvation are sufficently clear to all who avail themselves of ordinary means.

 

[JohnR7]

Ive heard many claim that it has ben be read as it is written

I have two years of Bible school and I just barely understand some of the basics on how to interpret the Bible. It is obvious that a lot of people do not even know the basic rules, much less they do not know how to apply them. In Bible school they keep pounding the basic rules into your head over and over again.

There are to many people with a grade school level of understanding trying to tell us about things they do not even begin to understand. I have seen people with a Phd in science, but when it comes to the Bible they function at about a third grade level of understanding. In fact it is very common becasue they are so busy to get their Phd, they do not have time to study their Bible or even time to do much of anything else.

 

[Tomk80]

You have not demonstrated that to me at all. What else do you feel qualifed to tell us about? Medicine, biology, physics? Are you only an expert on the Bible or are you an expert on other areas of study also?

What part of can't in "I can't tell you all about the bible" did you miss? Was it hard for you to read because I spelled it "can't" instead of "can not"?

Regardless, I backed up my statements. Look it up in the bible, I gave you the verse.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sometime when you're in a reflective mood, I'd like you to think a bit about the attitude you displayed in presenting this post.

Beastt,

I apologize for that remark. It was uncharacteristic of me, and I truly am sorry.

 

[Beastt]

The evidence doesn't change, only our theories adapt to fit the new evidence.

Statements like the "common" people pretty much prove my point. Most people do not have the time or desire to actually learn about subjects. They expect instant gratification, provided by someone else, and are unwilling to wait. They won't actually take responsibility for themselves or their own education, and push it all off onto others to do. While they continue to use the fruits of science in their day to day lifes, and deride those of us who actaully took the time to learn it.

Science does not provide instant results. Science takes work. I realise its much eaiser to just give up and say "Goddidit", but if all of us did that we would be living a life no different than the original Hebrews. Nomadic tribesmen in the wilderness, afraid of everything around us becuase we can't be bothered to take the time to figure any of it out.

Like I said, laziness is the path to ignorance. Knowledge takes work.

Not hardly. Science has plenty of room to grow, without excluding God, Who is the Author of Science.

Where did OdwinOddball suggest that science didn't have room to grow? I don't read that anywhere in his post.

As for God being the author of science, perhaps that's the case. But if he was, he's certainly not the author of the Bible because the two are drastically at odds.

YOU might think we'd be nothing more than nomadic tribesmen, but it shows how little you actually know about the role science plays in God's universe.

If the people here who prescribe to creationism are any measure, there seems to be a general lacking of true science interest in exchange for instant answers, even if they fail to live up to the scrutiny of examination against reality.

The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

Not at every turn, but certainly at many. And as a general rule, the more adamantly one clings to the Bible, the less they understand about science and the more they appeal to emotion.

Just look at all of the unsupported claims in just this thread, offered by those who follow a belief in creationism. Science is about support, theology is about empty claims.

 

[Beastt]

Exactly, when you have taken full advantage of everything that man has to offer you, then it is time to turn to God and that is exactly what I did.

As I read the account you provided, you did just the opposite. First you turned to God; you prayed and you ended up so ill that your heart stopped. That's when your wife turned to men and science. The men came, they applied the principles of science, and your heart began to beat again.

I found solutions and I found answers that science did not have to offer in any of their books. I searched and searched and searched for many, many years and I finally came to the conclusion that man and science did not have the answers I was looking for and they did not have the solutions I needed for my problems.

Are you speaking of the medical problems we were discussing or of something else?

If it were not got God, if I had to rely on 911, I am convinced I would not be here.

I believe you're convinced of this. But it's not your level of dedication I question. It is the logic or lack thereof, you apply to the situation. As I recall, you told me the doctors had apparently misdiagnosed your problem and provided you with medication which didn't provide relief from your symptoms. So you turned to God. You prayed and your condition worsened. Eventually, you became so sick that you literally died. Your heart stopped.

Then your wife called 911 - men, who brought with them the knowledge of medical science which they applied appropriately to the situation. It was the knowledge of science that revived you after your prayers had lead you to the bring of death and just beyond.

If you want to deceive yourself into thinking that man did it and God had no part of it, then that is up to you.

When prayer leads to death and science leads you back to life, it seems contrary to reason to determine that God is to be credited with your survival.

But you will never convince me of that and you will never convince my wife.

I'm fairly certain of this. But this isn't the problem. It's not about whether or not I can convince you to abandon or change your beliefs. It's whether or not you can demonstrate any credible reason for you to continue to hold onto your beliefs and whether or not I can provide credible reason which support my beliefs.

You can only allow yourself to be deceived into thinking that God did not have a part of it.

And yet, when left up to God, you ended up in asystole.

If I have to choose between science and God, then I will choose God. But science is a gift from God, so that is not a choice that we have to make. Even He allows the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

Or perhaps in his absence, he has no control over where the rain lands.

God Created this world in a way so that you can understand it. If He did not give it to you to understand, then you would not be able to understand. You only understand what you do, because God has given it to you to understand the things of science.

More purely unsupportable claims. This is what science is not about. In science, if you can't support it, there's no point in claiming it. Apparently, in the religion to which you prescribe, an unsupported claim is as good as a demonstration of factuality.

But go ahead and try to show me how you think that you have understanding apart from God. But also I will tell you, that if I have to live in a world without God, then I want no part of it. Never have and I never well want any part of a world that God is not a part of.

Again, John; this isn't about your level of conviction but the level of reason which can be applied to that reason. David Koresh believed in God and demonstrated amazing conviction for his beliefs. Suicide bombers show amazing conviction for their beliefs. David Berkowitz believed so strongly that he was being controlled by demons that he took to shooting people. Those are all demonstrations of devout conviction. But none of them are demonstrations of reason. And without reason, conviction is empty.

 

[Beastt]

I have two years of Bible school and I just barely understand some of the basics on how to interpret the Bible. It is obvious that a lot of people do not even know the basic rules, much less they do not know how to apply them. In Bible school they keep pounding the basic rules into your head over and over again.

There are to many people with a grade school level of understanding trying to tell us about things they do not even begin to understand. I have seen people with a Phd in science, but when it comes to the Bible they function at about a third grade level of understanding. In fact it is very common becasue they are so busy to get their Phd, they do not have time to study their Bible or even time to do much of anything else.

Do you really think God delivered his message in a form whcih requires years and years of carefully guided study to understand?

Or is it just possible that in order to twist the Bible into any semblance of reason, it requires years of studying means of corrupting and distorting the writings in the Bible?

If given a few years, I'm sure anyone could take a Mother Goose fairytale and figure out how to twist it into being far less lacking in credibility than it is without such tactics.

 

[JohnR7]

As I read the account you provided, you did just the opposite.

Do you have anything other than nonsense to say? Your thinking and reasoning is all the same and it is all nonsense.

Do you really think God delivered his message in a form whcih requires years and years of carefully guided study to understand?

How can you claim to have been a christian for 32 years and still not be able to demonstrate any understanding of the Bible?

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
[6] In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

If you do not want to follow the Bible that is up to you. I tend to get good results when I follow the Bible.
I would highly recommend reading the Bible and living according to it's teachings.
The more Bible you know the better off you are.
The more you do, the more you will benifit from doing what the Bible says to do.

What evidence do you have that the Bible does not have any benifit at all and is a waste of time to read?

 

[Beastt]

Beastt,

I apologize for that remark. It was uncharacteristic of me, and I truly am sorry.

I appreciate your heart-felt apology, AV1611VET. But as much as I appreciate your sentiments, my concern here was more the reason that you turned to such a stance. Certainly all of us are guilty of growing impatient to the point that we become insulting or overly dismissive of others. I certainly can't claim innocence where that's concerned.

But I think in the case I was pointing out there was a deeper reason for the attitude which seemed to accompany your post. I suspect that the demeanor revealed in your delivery was a tool used to bypass the need to provide a reasonable and credible refutation. Am I completely off base here?

 

[Beastt]

Do you have anything other than nonsense to say? Your thinking and reasoning is all the same and it is all nonsense.

Let's review where I got the information I posted and how I interpreted that information.

I went to my doctor and he said I had acid reflux and recommended Prilosec. I went to the emergency room and they said I had Pneumonia and gave me a new antibotic where you take one a day for five days. At the end of five days I was still sick and I called my doctor to see about getting some more medicine.

1. You turned to men and their science and found no effective treatment for your diagnostic signs and symptoms.

He did not return my call so I decided to just pray and leave it all to God.

2. Being dissatisfied with what men of science had to offer, you chose to leave it to God and prayed.

All I know about that is what my wife told me. She said that I woke her up at 5 in the morning. She called 911 and they told her to do CPR. She had just finished a class on that. Then they came out and shocked my heart to get it going again. They told her it did not look very good, but they would do what they could. Somehow they got me down the steps and to the hospital. I am sure it was difficult to get me down those steps.

3. After praying and "leaving it to God", your heart stopped and your wife called 911. Paramedics/firemen came and again applied the knowledge of science to treating you. They started your heart again.

I do not really remember what happened after that until there was a nurse talking to me and when I tried to answer it was as if a fourth of my brain was gone. So I did what I always do, I prayed and then I could feel the prayers of the people at the church and I could feel God heal me. I can remember every little detail after that, esp all the stupid info commericals that they have on the TV set all night long there.

4. At some point in the hospital you started feeling better. But rather than credit the doctors, nurses and the effects and treatments born of medical science, you attributed the beginings of your recovery to God.

The pastor said when he saw me in the hospital he went home and cried because he really did not think I was going to make it. His wife verified that is what happened. Of course I do not remember anything, so I not know what they had me on. But I think they were trying to get my lungs cleared out. But I do not know what tubes or live support they had me on.

5. Even your pastor felt it was too late for you and you would ultimately die in the hospital.

It was really boring. I don't remember anything for a week, but then the next week I remember all the tiny little details so it is as if I remember more than I did before I got sick. They say what does not kill you will make your stronger.

6. You were so sick, (and probably medicated), that you remember very little during the first week of recovery. But under the care of medical science, you did get better, as opposed to what happened to you when you simply left things up to God and prayer.

Tell me, John; have I destroyed the proper chronology here? Have I completely misunderstood what it is you've been telling me? Or is this a fairly accurate representation of the events and the order in which they occurred?

You, John, proclaim that I don't understand the Bible because I read what it says. You proclaim that you do understand the Bible because you change the wording, insert your conjecture and generally distort what the words actually say. Why would you assume that your understanding of the Bible is better than my own, simply because you have been subjected to the training of others who choose to believe the Bible is the word of God and thusly, have engaged in years of creative interpretation in order to salvage the Bible from it's own verifiably inaccurate claims?

 

[JohnR7]

Let's review

You can review all you want to review. But if you keep on using the same faulty logic and defunct reasoning you will keep getting the same results. If you want to try to fix something using broken tools, then go right ahead and try. But as for me, we are going to use what we know will work. We are going to do what we know will get the job done.

Why do you feel a need to convert people to your way of thinking? I do not try to convert people to the way I think, I try to get them to convert to God and put on the Mind of Christ.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times Roman, Serif]The Mind of Christ[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times Roman, Serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times Roman, Serif]1. A mind of divine love 2. A mind of peace 3. An anointed mind 4. A praying mind 5. A fasting mind 6. A mind of faith 7. A mind that glorified God 8. A mind of compassion 9. An obedient mind 10. A trusting mind 11. A mind free of all condemnation 12. A mind of full assurance 13. A happy mind 14. A contented mind 15. A tempted mind 16. A mind acquainted with grief and sorrows 17. A mind that wept 18. A magnanimous mind 19. A forgiving mind 20. A serving mind 21. A pure mind 22. A mind of truth 23. A sober mind 24. A resurrected mind 25. A longsuffering mind 26. A mind of prophecy 27. A Holy Ghost mind 28. A believing mind 29. A mind of the nine fruits of the Spirit 30. A mind accepting 9 gifts of the Spirit 31. A mind that feels the need of the Holy Ghost for all people 32. A born new mind 33. A mind of Calvary 34. A mind of Bible Pentecost 35. A mind of one accord with the Father 36. A mind of unity with the Holy Spirit 37. A sacrificial mind 38. A sanctified mind 39. A mind God can reason with 40. A mind with the whole armor of God 41. A made up mind 42. A thankful mind* 43. A mind of holiness 44. A mind that blessed 45. A mind to do God's work 46. A mind of God's wisdom 47. A mind dwelling on the right kind of thoughts 48. A mind with the love bridle 49. A mind of tender mercy 50. A mind of goodness 51. A mind of kindness 52. A mind knowing the will of God 53. A mind God could use as His very own 54. A mind of courage 55. A mind of boldness 56. A mind of hope 57. A Word mind 58. A divine blood mind 59. A mind of divine knowledge 60. A stable mind 61. A consecrated mind 62. A mind of endurance 63. A dedicated mind 64. A mind of encouragement 65. A mind of fellowship 66. A willing mind 67. A perfect mind 68. A working mind (#140)BB 69. A mind connected with heaven 70. A mind God could use all the time 71. A mind to fulfill His divine mission 72. A victorious mind 73. An all-conquering mind 74. A gentle mind 75. A mind with the conversation of heaven 76. A wonderful mind 77. An understanding mind 78. A steadfast mind 79. A mind of joy 80. A Spirit-filled mind 81. A praising mind 82. A grace mind 83. A mind of freedom 84. A mind of living water 85. A mind of unbelievable kindness 86. A grateful mind 87. An on time mind* 88. A spiritual mind 89. A thoughtful mind 90. A soul-wining mind to sow and reap 91. An eternal life mind 92. A healing mind 93. A miracle mind 94. An obedient mind 95. A mind of determination 96. A divine blood mind 97. A mind completely surrendered 98. A mind of honor 99. A perfect mind like the first Adam 100. A mind just like the heavenly Father 101. A sound mind* 102. A mind of power 103. A made up mind 104. A mind with the right attitudes (#134) 105. A patient mind 106. An unshakable mind 107. A mind of compassion 108. A mind with the six spiritual senses 109. The Eden mind with holy physical senses 110. A gracious mind 111. A quick mind 112. A watching mind 113. A mind of pure light 114. A lovely mind 115. A submissive mind 116. A waiting mind 117. A mind of zeal to do God's work 118. A mind of heaven's courage 119. A peculiar mind 120. An alert mind 121. An honest mind 122. A mind of humility 123. A mind of a good report 124. A mind of complete self control 125. A mind without spot 126. A mind without wrinkles, blemishes or any such thing 127. A "boastless" mind 128. A mind to respect each person* 129. A renewed mind 130. A mind of righteousness 131. A mind stayed on the Lord 132. A mind that pleased God 133. The Eden mind 134. A blessed mind of the Beatitudes (#104) 135. A mind with the divine blood shield 136. An exciting mind 137. A mind of blood happiness 138. A mind without any guile 139. An overcoming mind 140. A working mind (#68) 141. A mind of all the promises of God [/FONT]