Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

[AV1611VET]

It's not a matter of lacking common ground. It's a matter of evidence. I can give you the scripture, show you the depictions based on the original Hebrew, give you the names, dates and fates surrounding the eventual acceptance of heliocentrism by the church and back up every word of it. You can offer nothing except your own need to believe otherwise.

Where the church disagrees with the Bible, the church is wrong. If the church accepted this junk science, it was in spite of the Bible, not in respect to it; and no, you can't show us anything in the Original Hebrew.

 

[Beastt]

That is exactly it. The evos chase people off and then they sit around and talk to themselves untell someone else comes along so they can chase them off. In some strange and unexplainable way they think that makes them a winner if people do not want to be around them.

You might wish to look at your own post-to-reps ratio before sounding off too loudly on that line of thought.

 

[Beastt]

Where the church disagrees with the Bible, the church is wrong. If the church accepted this junk science, it was in spite of the Bible, not in respect to it; and no, you can't show us anything in the Original Hebrew.

And if I could, you couldn't read it. So what good would it do? So instead, I've shown you the depiction of the world based on the original Hebrew, by those to whom Hebrew was the native tongue.

The church wasn't wrong. Their original interpretation is true to the scripture. It's the scripture which fails to comply with reality.

Why don't you have God come down here and defend it? You'll never see God doing any such thing because it's not God's word. God's never write bibles. They're always the work of men, claiming to be delivering the word of one god or another.

Gods don't write texts, don't defend writings and can never be shown to have done a single thing, ever, in the history of man.

 

[AV1611VET]

You might wish to look at your own post-to-reps ratio before sounding off too loudly on that line of thought.

Is that something to brag about? And what would Jesus' post-to-reps ratio be, if He were here and posting (since He didn't believe in Evolutlion)?

 

[Beastt]

Is that something to brag about? And what would Jesus' post-to-reps ratio be, if He were here and posting (since He didn't believe in Evolutlion)?

Given the tone of John's post, it's something which should be considered.

I have a feeling that if Jesus were here, he'd receive more reputation points from the non-Christians than he would from the Christians. You can't hold any man responsible for not believing in concepts which didn't exist during the time he was alive. Shall we berate Newton because his gravitational theory didn't accomodate quantum physics?

 

[AV1611VET]

The church wasn't wrong. Their original interpretation is true to the scripture. It's the scripture which fails to comply with reality.

Oh, now the church wasn't wrong, their scriptures were? Well, don't count on it. There were a LOT of things the common people didn't accept in the church. That's one of the reason we have America today.

Why don't you have God come down here and defend it?

Oh, believe me, it's on His agenda. He just has some other things to take care of first.

You'll never see God doing any such thing because it's not God's word.

Says you. Every verse but 4 in Psalm 119 speaks of the Word of God in one form or another --- and it was written by a man that God called "a man after mine own heart" - (Acts 13:22).

God's never write bibles.

No --- but He inspired and preserved a line for you and me.

They're always the work of men, claiming to be delivering the word of one god or another.

Anyone can claim anything --- don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Gods don't write texts...

Mine wrote the Ten Commandments.

...don't defend writings and can never be shown to have done a single thing, ever, in the history of man.

He saved my wretched soul --- and He will save yours, too.

 

[JohnR7]

(Job 28:24) For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens

Job 28:20-28
"From where then does wisdom come?
And where is the place of understanding?
[21] It is hidden from the eyes of all living,
And concealed from the birds of the air.
[22] Destruction and Death say,
'We have heard a report about it with our ears.'
[23] God understands its way,
And He knows its place.
[24] For He looks to the ends of the earth,
And sees under the whole heavens,
[25] To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
[26] When He made a law for the rain,
And a path for the thunderbolt,
[27] Then He saw wisdom and declared it;
He prepared it, indeed, He searched it out.
[28] And to man He said,
'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
And to depart from evil is understanding.' "

You have to look at this verse in context. This is a passage that has to do with finding wisdom and understanding. The verse your quote is talking about how God can look to the ends of the earth. There is nothing in the earth that God can not see.

2 Chron. 16:9
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars."

Here we have another passage that tells us that God can see throughout the whole earth. He knows everything that is going on.

The main point of all of this is: "fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding" This is how you obtain wisdom and understanding. There is no other way other then the way that God provides. The Bible is filled with warnings for those who are wise in their own eyes. Just because they are deceived into thinking they are wise, true wisdom only comes though fear of the Lord and to depart from evil is understanding. Those who continue to do evil lack understanding. That is why to know God means to seek after wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

 

[Jase]

Is that something to brag about? And what would Jesus' post-to-reps ratio be, if He were here and posting (since He didn't believe in Evolutlion)?

How can you make this claim? How do you know he didn't accept evolution? That is completely baseless, and nothing but your opinion.

 

[Beastt]

Oh, now the church wasn't wrong, their scriptures were?

I've never claimed otherwise. But it's not the church's scripture. It's that of the Bible.

Well, don't count on it. There were a LOT of things the common people didn't accept in the church. That's one of the reason we have America today.

Which has what, to do with what?

Oh, believe me, it's on His agenda. He just has some other things to take care of first.

Two-thousand years of "things", and counting. For a guy who can whip up a whole universe in 6-days, he sure takes his time doing everything else. So far -- nada.

Says you. Every verse but 4 in Psalm 119 speaks of the Word of God in one form or another --- and it was written by a man that God called "a man after mine own heart" - (Acts 13:22).

This is why logic and reason continually fail you. It seems you're unable to make any statements without including mere assumption, and basing the whole point of that statement upon the assumptions therein.

Stated more correctly; Every verse but four, in Psalms 119 addresses the, "Word of God", in one form or another. And it was written by a man who also wrote that God called him "a man after his own heart".

"God considers Beastt a man after his own heart."​

There, I've written it. Does that now make it true?

No --- but He inspired and preserved a line for you and me.

Once again you've taken assumption and presented it as fact. It has been claimed, (you really need to learn that word), that God inspired the Bible. No verification or evidence to support this claim has ever been substantiated.

Anyone can claim anything

I'm glad to see that you recognize this. But many times claims can be tested. And when we see the claim that the Earth is stationary, along with the claim that God declared it to be stationary and also brought it into existence, we have an example of a claim which has failed.

--- don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Don't go looking for babies where none can be shown to exist.

Mine wrote the Ten Commandments.

Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, (3 versions, apparently). Then Moses claimed he got them from God. Just as he claimed his "cure" for leprosy was from God and just as he claimed the Ark of the Covanent held the power of God. Both of the latter are demonstrably untrue. The former must rest on the reputation carved by his other failed claims.

He saved my wretched soul --- and He will save yours, too.

You can't even demonstrate that you have a soul. No one can. It's a construct born of the same claims which are failing continually in the face of science.

 

[AV1611VET]

How can you make this claim? How do you know he didn't accept evolution? That is completely baseless, and nothing but your opinion.

Hermeneutics 101 --- don't make a doctrine out of something that is not covered in the Bible.

Did Darwin recant and accept a literal 6-day Creation? If he didn't, how do you know; and if he did, how do you know?

 

[Lucretius]

Darwin didn't recant. I trust his entire family, who was at his bedside when he died, over some random woman who was never even there (according to the family.)

 

[JohnR7]

Every verse but 4 in Psalm 119 speaks of the Word of God in one form or another --- and it was written by a man that God called "a man after mine own heart" - (Acts 13:22).

The 119 Psalm was a real eye opener for me. I wondered how is it that David could LOVE the LAW of God. Then I began to see the Love that God has for us and how God wants to shelter us and protect us. God wants us to have the very best of all He has to offer. But He does not force it on us. We are given a choice. He does everything He can to encourge us to make the right choice. Reading the 119 psalm really changed my life.

When we were in school sometimes the rules were there for the benifit of the teachers, to make their life easier. But with God, the rules are not their for HIS benifit. Everything is for OUR benifit. Even God made the ultimate sacrifice for us. For man, love means doing what feels good. For God love means to be willing to sacrifice yourself for the benifit of the beloved.

I have no question that my wife would give her life for me or at least for her son. In fact from a scientific view point, I would not even be here if she had not done CPR to get oxygen to my brain while waiting for the paramedics to get here to shock my heart and get it pumping again. The whole time I was in the hospital while the doctor was working to get my heart regular, she was there. When I came home from the hospital she stayed home from her job to take care of me. If I wanted something she would jump up in the middle of the night, in the middle of her sleep and she would get whatever it was that I wanted her to do.

There is a difference, there are different kinds of love. David in the 119 psalm taught me about God's love.

 

[JohnR7]

Where the church disagrees with the Bible, the church is wrong.

What church are you talking about? You must be talking about the harlot apostate church. The true church is here on Earth to represent Christ.

1 Peter 2:4-5
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, [5] you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[AV1611VET]

Two-thousand years of "things", and counting. For a guy who can whip up a whole universe in 6-days, he sure takes his time doing everything else. So far -- nada.

LOL --- if you'll look at history in light of Scripture, instead of Science, you'll see differently.

This is why logic and reason continually fail you. It seems you're unable to make any statements without including mere assumption, and basing the whole point of that statement upon the assumptions therein.

As I have stated before, most of my "assumptions" are backed up by Scripture.

Stated more correctly; Every verse but four, in Psalms 119 addresses the, "Word of God", in one form or another. And it was written by a man who also wrote that God called him "a man after his own heart".

Did you read this before you submitted it?

David wrote Psalm 119 --- Luke wrote Acts 13:22.

Once again you've taken assumption and presented it as fact. It has been claimed, (you really need to learn that word), that God inspired the Bible. No verification or evidence to support this claim has ever been substantiated.

You need to read my post on Ontological Subordination. Again, it is not the Holy Ghost's job to leave an audit trail.

I'm glad to see that you recognize this. But many times claims can be tested.

God does challenge us to prove Him. Do you even know what that challenge is?

And when we see the claim that the Earth is stationary, along with the claim that God declared it to be stationary and also brought it into existence, we have an example of a claim which has failed.

Tell that to the Amorites that died that day. Also, these are what scientists would call "singularities", but we Christians call them "miracles".

Miracles aren't cheap occurrences, and no amount of Science will be able to duplicate them.

 

[Beastt]

Job 28:20-28
"From where then does wisdom come?
And where is the place of understanding?
[21] It is hidden from the eyes of all living,
And concealed from the birds of the air.
[22] Destruction and Death say,
'We have heard a report about it with our ears.'
[23] God understands its way,
And He knows its place.
[24] For He looks to the ends of the earth,
And sees under the whole heavens,
[25] To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
[26] When He made a law for the rain,
And a path for the thunderbolt,
[27] Then He saw wisdom and declared it;
He prepared it, indeed, He searched it out.
[28] And to man He said,
'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
And to depart from evil is understanding.' "

You have to look at this verse in context. This is a passage that has to do with finding wisdom and understanding. The verse your quote is talking about how God can look to the ends of the earth. There is nothing in the earth that God can not see.

That's a claim, John and one for which we have no means of testing so it's of little use in an apologetics debate. But if God can look to the "ends of the Earth", then he's quite good at turning a blind eye to those things that need his attention.

If you look at the context of the scripture and apply that to the known configuration of the universe, the phrase "under the Heavens" is left without meaning. Of course, if you revert to a flat Earth, suddenly it makes sense. The only problem being that the Earth isn't flat.

2 Chron. 16:9
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars."

"I don't like what you have/haven't done so from now until I say you'll keep killing one another in large, arranged battles." Is that the loving, caring, benevolent God you're trying to sell me? Little children are killed in wars, John. Women, children, infants -- entire cultures are torn apart.

Men had wars before the Bible, before Jesus and before language. The fact that someone decided to write that God is causing this because he's miffed doesn't really constitute any kind of evidence that God said it, is doing it or even exists.

Here we have another passage that tells us that God can see throughout the whole earth. He knows everything that is going on.

You can present all the scripture you wish, John. It doesn't change what the rest of the scripture concerning Earth's configuration says. It doesn't change that the church defended a geocentric position for over 16-centuries and it doesn't change the fact that the church killed people for believing in a heliocentric universe.

The main point of all of this is: "fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,

That might be the point, as you see it, but it's a failed point. Wisdom is knowledge combined with the ability to reason.

Fear is an entirely different thing. It is an emotion -- a product of evolution -- which is useful for protecting us against threats. The problem is that many are unable to differentiate between real threats, such as a train bearing down on us as we picnic on the rails, and imaginary threats, such as a proposed non-physical entity which has never been shown to be capable of anything.

And to depart from evil is understanding"

To disengage from bringing harm to others is to depart from evil. Unfortunately, through religion, many find themselves capable of continuing to engage in horrendous acts, causing unspeakable harm to others, and to convince themselves that this harm is actually doing them, "a favor". That other thread still awaits, John.

This is how you obtain wisdom and understanding.

I'm going to be completely frank with you here; you're not in any kind of position to be telling others here how to obtain wisdom or understanding since you continually show a demonstrable deficiency in both areas. And that by itself would be forgiveable. But when you continually proclaim to be able to support your ideas, but run away everytime anyone prompts you to provide that support, it's neither forgiveable nor honest.

There is no other way other than the way that God provides. The Bible is filled with warnings for those who are wise in their own eyes.

And no matter how many warnings one finds in the Bible, none have ever been demonstrated to be valid.

Just because they are deceived into thinking they are wise, true wisdom only comes though fear of the Lord and to depart from evil is understanding.

Again, John, if you ever reach a position where you can demonstrate that you have achieved wisdom and understanding, there may be those who wish to hear what you have to say. Until then, you serve to demonstrate that what you claim is completely contrary to reality.

Those who continue to do evil lack understanding.

This is completely agreeable to me. Now, if you'd like to move over to the other thread, I'll be quite happy to show you some of the evil you're doing, why it's evil and the effect it has upon you, the other creatures of this planet, and the economy.

That is why to know God means to seek after wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Then why is it that everytime you're offered knowledge contrary to what you wish to believe, you hide?

 

[JohnR7]

But if God can look to the "ends of the Earth", then he's quite good at turning a blind eye to those things that need his attention.

If you shot yourself in the foot would you blame God for allowing you to shoot yourself? He give us the freedom of choice and He also allows us to suffer the consequences for making the wrong choice.

One thing is for sure. God makes it plain and clear that He will not take the blame for the mess that man and the devil have made out of this earth. You can be sure that God is blameless in ALL that He does.

The question is how can God be a God of Justice and still be a God of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. That is what calvery was all about. Jesus paid the price for our sins so that we could be forgiven.

Of course some Christians think they can continue in their sin, but the grace of God leads us to repentance. If we are saved, then we are saved from our sin. We are delivered from sin, so that we can live in freedom. We do not have to be in bondage anymore.

 

[JohnR7]

Men had wars before the Bible, before Jesus and before language.

The had wars before the Bible was written. But they did not have wars before written history. At least there is no evidence to that effect. First of all, before the cities they did not even have groups any bigger then 30 people, counting all of the women and children. It was not until they began to build cities that the number of people became great enough to have a war. Plus you have to have metal to build the advanced weapons. A well equiped soldier had a javlin if they need to knock someone off of a horse. They had a spear and they had a sword. Also, they needed a shield. How is someone with a spear going to stand up against someone with a spear and a shield? Their spear would get stuck in the shield and then all they would have is their knife. That is why a longer sword would get them before they could get close enough to use their knife.

Now if you want to talk about wars, look at what science has given to us today. The ability to wipe out huge amounts of people in a very short period of time. Don't blink your eyes, it could all be over with. In a five or six hour period of time half the people on this planet can be killed. Actually, it is not a question of IF, it is only a question of when.

God is holding him back or man would have destroyed himself a long time ago. But the day will come when God will remove His restraint and that will be it. You will see the beginning of the end of life as we now know it. In fact only 10% of the people will make it though to repopulate the earth, and get it all going again.

The problem with gathering people together in large cities is that makes it easy to destory them. All they have to do is turn a key, punch in the code and push a button. The system maybe "fail safe", but it is not safe from those who intend to use it. Or at least those like President Bush who have the authority to use it.

 

[JohnR7]

I'm going to be completely frank with you here; you're not in any kind of position to be telling others here how to obtain wisdom or understanding

Actually, what you need to do is judge yourself, not me. I am only telling you what the Bible says. You seem to want to judge others, but you do not seem to want to judge youself.

1 Cor. 11:30-31
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

The Bible makes it clear that there are people who are weak, sick and even dead because they did not judge themselves. So God had to judge them or else condemn them with the world.

1 Cor. 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

That is why Paul makes it plain and clear that we do sow what we reap.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

It does not matter if you judge me or not. You will be judged by the standard that God sets for you. How do you think you will do on the day that God judges you?

Matthew 7:1-2
"Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

I can tell you what will happen. They way you judge others is how you will be judged. The same judgement you use on me, is the judgement God will hold you accountable for. So do you think that you can live up to the standard that you have set for yourself?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Actually, what you need to do is judge yourself, not me. I am only telling you what the Bible says. You seem to want to judge others, but you do not seem to want to judge youself.

1 Cor. 11:30-31
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

The Bible makes it clear that there are people who are weak, sick and even dead because they did not judge themselves. So God had to judge them or else condemn them with the world.

1 Cor. 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

That is why Paul makes it plain and clear that we do sow what we reap.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

It does not matter if you judge me or not. You will be judged by the standard that God sets for you. How do you think you will do on the day that God judges you?

Matthew 7:1-2
"Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

I can tell you what will happen. They way you judge others is how you will be judged. The same judgement you use on me, is the judgement God will hold you accountable for. So do you think that you can live up to the standard that you have set for yourself?

Johnny's inevitable "I know you are but what am I?" gibberish. is this what passes for wisdom these days, Johnny?

 

[kopilo]

I have a feeling that if Jesus were here, he'd receive more reputation points from the non-Christians than he would from the Christians. You can't hold any man responsible for not believing in concepts which didn't exist during the time he was alive. Shall we berate Newton because his gravitational theory didn't accomodate quantum physics?

Ironically enough, the Christ doesn't believe in everything, he knows everything.

No I will not argue that this is based on fact more then belief. You either accept Christianity or you do not.