Creationism is NOT Biblical

[Assyrian]

Believers never believed the stars had powers over them.

No that wasn't my point, though oddly there are creationists here who are into a Christianised form of astrology. It was in response to marktheblake's sarcastic comment that I could be famous for debunking YEC. But the science that overturned a young earth was established centuries ago, like the science that threw out astrology, flat earth and geocentrism.

The ancients never believed the earth was flat. It was always a globe in ancient writings and depictions. The Dead Sea Scrolls have writings which call the earth a globe, many times.

The idea of the earth being a globe was proposed by Pythagoras about 500 BC was demonstrated by Eratosthenes around 240 BC when he calculated the circumference using shadows at the equator and in Alexandria. He was out by about 0.4%. This was well establish by the time Qumran was founded. Older civilisation Egypt and Babylon believed the earth was flat.

You also had literalists in the early church who argued for a flat earth on the basis of their bible interpretation, like Lactantius and Cosmas Indicpleustes, but the mainstream ignored them and stuck with established science.

A flat earth belief came into existence only after the suppression of the Truth of God's Word, destruction of ancient libraries by barbarians [and later Islamics] who invaded civilized cities, and entry of the last world wide dark age of information and technology which came as a result of those invasions and book burnings.

No flat earth did not come back in, at east not for anyone with an education. That is a modern myth. Columbus was not ridiculed because he said the word was round, but because he thought it was too small. They were right. Columbus was very fortunate there was another continent in the Indies.

Geo-centrism is not "gone", but stands as the Truth of God's Word, from Genesis 1 -through Revelation; the Book of Jasher; and the writings of Enoch.
Biblically; the sun [in which sun God's Word declares that He set His tabernacle in the heavens, and that He dwells in that tabernacle set in the sun], has a course to run, daily, and rises and sets and goes around the earth, dividing night from day.
Biblically, the earth is fixed, as the center point of creation and of God's special design and care, and the constellations were set in the heavens to be for signs and seasons [yearly signs and spiritual signs, of God's plan], along with the sun and moon] for earth.

So, why geocentrism not flat earth? This is a question I ask Creationist too. Why YEC but not geocentrism or flat earth? It seems arbitrary. If you are going to throw out science on the basis of a literal interpetation why not throw it all out and get a complete cosmology straight from scripture?

I much prefer the alternative. If our understanding of scripture is shaken by solid science we need to go back to scripture and see where we went wrong.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No that wasn't my point, though oddly there are creationists here who are into a Christianised form of astrology. It was in response to marktheblake's sarcastic comment that I could be famous for debunking YEC. But the science that overturned a young earth was established centuries ago, like the science that threw out astrology, flat earth and geocentrism.

"Science" is not an entity and has no power, no head, no place to go to, find the "seat" of this vague illusive thing that you are you are calling "science" -as if it is an all powerful force that has spoken -NOT!

What is, however, is men who can discover how God's universe works, in some of it's parts -not all. And men are not in agreement about this universe. There is no concensus among those who are so called scientists about anything -except many of them agree that God is a liar, or that God does not exist; and so they go about becoming fools.

One person has said "today's science is tomorrow's superstition", and history proves that true. But "God's Word is true from the beginning"

The fact is that the ancient writings which speak of the earth as a globe which were among the collections of the Qumran community were not neccessarily written by them. Some were Psalms written by David and other Psalmists. The materials which the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied on and written with have been dated as far back to thrid century B.C.; but that is only the dating of their particular copies, not dating to the originals of the works they copied and used.

Eratosthenes, the Libyan, third century B.C. did compute the circumference of the earth within two hundred miles of what was discovered in the past century [discovered by using sattelites -using them again, for there are ancient maps in existence which were made using sattelite technology that even mapped Antartica. This was done after the flood and before the ice covered it -Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings has information on those maps]. Eratosthenes did not invent or discover the idea of the earth as a globe; he just measured it, in his own "modern times" -after his own age's recovering from "dark ages'.

Nebuchadnezzar ruled the Olmec civilization which flourished in what is today Mexico; for Nebuchadnezzar was the "king of kings" and ruled the "entire" earth, "wherever men, beasts, or fowl dwelt". The Olmecs were at their heighth in 1300 B.C [?] and declining when Nebuchadnazzar ruled them in 6th century B.C., when Nebuchadnezzar conquered the entire globe.

Dan 2:37-39 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth....and etc

The ancient Egyptians also understood measurements [they were sacred] and understood the earth as a globe. They traded grain from the Nile through the Tarshish Sea merchants, for goods from the "western continents" [proof that they used cocaine is found in mummies].
Eze 27 shows great trading by sea


...Isa 23:3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=23&v=3&t=KJV#3

The route to the "western continents" was told of in some ancient writings [Saga America, by Barry Fell, has some of these writings recorded in it], and that was after the dark ages which resulted from Egypt and Babylon being destroyed.
The Chinese and Indian continent dwellers and African continent merchants still traded goods to seaports in the western continents, and left their evidences in writings in the eastern world and in the western world.

So, why geocentrism not flat earth? This is a question I ask Creationist too. Why YEC but not geocentrism or flat earth?

Because God's Word teaches geocentrism, and does not teach flat earth.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

She doesn't actually say another son, which you might expect if there were other sons and daughters around. It is 'another seed'. Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, "For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed." The use of the word 'appointed' is another indication that Seth took the official role of promised seed.


But he was an outcast. You can lose you birthright, just ask Esau.

Eve's name for her son, "Seth" = "compensation", is described in her following words. Seth is a compensation, set in place of Abel.
He was born next, after Abel was slain.
Abel was serving as firstborn, when His sacrifice was accepted by fire [book of Jasher describes it], He was the chosen, elect, firstborn son through whom they expected the seed to come.
Cain brought inferior fruits of the ground, and by not honoring God with the best, he was disqualified.

And Esau sold his birthright -and the blessing with it- for stew the first time, when he was 16, and was compensated for it fourfold by Jacob, when Jacob returned from Syria. Then, to top it off, Esau completely gave up any claims to the birthright or the blessing of it at the time of the death of Isaac, when Jacob offered Esau the birthright which he had sold to Jacob and had been compensated for, or else Jacob offered Esau his own half of the inheritance of Isaac's wealth, which Esau chose. Esau signed a legal document relinquishing all claims at that time.
This is all recorded in the Book of Jasher.

 

[Mallon]

Because God's Word teaches geocentrism, and does not teach flat earth.

Except for the parts about the earth taking the shape of stamped clay (Job 38:13-14), about being able to see the entire surface of the earth from a high vantage point (Daniel 4:10-11, Matthew 4:8), and about the earth acting as a floor for the tent that is the heavens (Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 19:4, Psalm 104:2), right?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Except for the parts about the earth taking the shape of stamped clay (Job 38:13-14), about being able to see the entire surface of the earth from a high vantage point (Daniel 4:10-11, Matthew 4:8), and about the earth acting as a floor for the tent that is the heavens (Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 19:4, Psalm 104:2), right?

wrong -but then, you make it so easy

Except for the parts about the earth taking the shape of stamped clay (Job 38:13-14),

God commands the break of day and causes the dawn to know it's place. The dawn is to the earth like a seal to clay, and I personally watch the dawn turn the earth -like a seal to clay- many mornings, as I lie in bed looking east through my window, and I quote that verse. It's one of my favorites, because God's created heavenly temple is set in the sun, and He commands the morning like a Captain commands a ship.

Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning/break of day since thy days; [and] caused the dayspring/dawn to know his place; Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned about as clay to the seal and stands as a garment.

about being able to see the entire surface of the earth from a high vantage point (Daniel 4:10-11,
You simply must learn to read a whole passage to see what is being said before you lift a bit out to try prove something, but which makes shames you for lack of knowledge of the passage and of what is even being said in the passage. [Are you just lifting things from a skeptic site and thinking you are so knowing what is in the Word because you believe liars have credibility? -believe me, they do not know what they speak of and you would be wise to dump them and begin to look into the word for yourself].

Dan 4:20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; Whose leaves [were] fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it [was] meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
It [is] thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
As I said in a prior post; Nebuchadnazzar ruled the Olmecs in what is now called Mexico, for the Olmec civilization was at it's heighth when Nebuchadnazzar was "king of kings over earth" and "ruled whereever man, beast, or fowl dwelt".


Matthew 4:8),
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

That mountain is not seen by men from earth, and is in a realm called heavenly places, where powers, principalities and wicked rulers are set over this earth and where they will be cast down from when Jesus returns. Enoch saw all that realm, when taken on a tour of the universe by angels.

At any rate, the devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, from that mountain where he reigns over the earth from, as the prince of the power of the air.
So you have not got the picture -see?


and about the earth acting as a floor for the tent that is the heavens (Isaiah 40:22,

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

God sits on the cirle/disk of the earth. What is that disk/circle? -the sun, as depicted in the ancient Egyptian and Babylonian tablets and drawings and writings and temple reliefs. The inhabitants of the earth are like grasshoppers to Him, from His dwelling place in the sun.

Psalm 19:4, is, in Hebrew, stating that fact:
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. He set His tabernacle in the sun
Douay Rheims Psalm 18:5 is the same as Psalm 19:4 in the Protestant Bible:

1 Unto the end. A psalm for David.
2 The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.
3 Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night showeth knowledge.
4 There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard.
5 Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.
6 He hath set his tabernacle in the sun:
7

Isaiah 18:4 in the Hebrew states that YHWH dwells in His tabernacle which is set in the sun, also, from where He looks down on the inhabitants of the earth:

Literally; YHWH said, I will take my rest and consider/look down/scan intently, from my dwelling place, the dazzingly hot sun.
And there are songs for degrees in the Dead Sea Scrolls, to be sung as the sun's light comes forth in the morning to when the sun sets and goes back round for rising again. They begin to be sung; "when light comes forth from His dwelling",

Psalm 104:2),
Psa 104:2 Who coverest [thyself] with light/the sun as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

He covers/arrays/envelops Himself with the sun, like a garment. He stretched out His heavens liek a curtain -they're pretty thin.

Psa 104:5 [Who] laid/established/ the foundations[/1) fixed or established place, foundation] of the earth, [that] it should not be removed [1) to totter, shake, slip... to dislodge, let fall, drop] for ever.

He fixed the earth firmly in place, that it should not be moved. [in the tribulation it will be turned upside down and will stagger and reel like a drunkard [Isaiah 25]; but in Psalm 75:,2,3, He promises that He will bear up the pillars of it at that time].

Though this is easy, it takes time to do your homework for you and I would appreciate it if you would do it for yourself next time, so that you will have more understanding of what you are arguing against.
In your reply, you just proved total ignorance of what the Word of God states at all, about the subject.

-but have a nice day.

 

[Mallon]

Thanks for those very plastic and convenient interpretations, yeshuasavedme. I hope you won't ever accuse me to playing fast and loose with the Scriptures!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Thanks for those very plastic and convenient interpretations, yeshuasavedme. I hope you won't ever accuse me to playing fast and loose with the Scriptures!

I gave you only what you can prove for yourself -if you had a mind to do it. I claimed nothing that is not true.
If you actually study the Scriptures and learn things that can shed light on passages by your study, then by all means post em. using your proofs for your understandings. I will not mock truth.

BTW, in case you actually read what I posted, note that the passage in Isaiah 40 declares the glory and majesty of YHWH, and He it is who "ישב yashab" =dwells, remains, sits, abides 'in' the circle/sphere [disk], while the earth's/eretz/ dwellers/"ישב yashab" are as grasshoppers to Him..


About that dwelling YHWH set in the "sphere", over earth -He said it is the dazzingly hot sun, in Isaiah 18:4, in which "He set His tabernacle", as Psalm 19:4 states [Douay Rheims Psalm 18:5].
Translators are not inspired, and when they are without understanding and biased, one must needs go to the original Hebrew -or Greek, for themselves.

The statement that His dwelling/tabernacle is set in the sun is not alone limited to those passages. All nations once knew God, and changed His glory to that of his creation. The Pythagorians believed that the temple of Zeus [from the Greek word for "life] had his temple in the sun. And they believed that the sun was made of rock crystal. They once actually knew who God was, and where His heavenly created temple was, but they changed His glory.

They once knew the writings of Enoch, and that Enoch visited the heavenly temple, and that it was banded by pillars of fire, and that the path of the stars -constellations was above it, and that it was made of "tessalated crystal".
1 Enoch

Chapter 14]
1 The book of the words of righteousness, and of the reprimand of the eternal Watchers in accordance 2 with the command of the Holy Great One in that vision. I saw in my sleep what I will now say with a tongue of flesh and with the breath of my mouth: which the Great One has given to men to 3 converse therewith and understand with the heart. As He has created and given to man the power of understanding the word of wisdom, so hath He created me also and given me the power of reprimanding 4 the Watchers, the children of heaven.
I wrote out your petition, and in my vision it appeared thus, that your petition will not be granted unto you throughout all the days of eternity, and that judgement 5 has been finally passed upon you: yea (your petition) will not be granted unto you. And from henceforth you shall not ascend into heaven unto all eternity, and in bonds of the earth the decree 6 has gone forth to bind you for all the days of the world. And (that) previously you shall have seen the destruction of your beloved sons and ye shall have no pleasure in them, but they shall fall before 7 you by the sword.
And your petition on their behalf shall not be granted, nor yet on your own: even though you weep and pray and speak all the words contained in the writing which I have 8 written.

And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in 9 the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright 10 me.

And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was 11 of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were 12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its 13 portals blazed with fire.

And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there 14 were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me. And as I quaked 15 and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater 16 than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to 17 you its splendour and its extent. And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path 18 of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire.

And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20 thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and 21 was whiter than any snow. None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason 22 of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him.

The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times 23 ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were 24 nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: ' Come hither, 25 Enoch, and hear my word.' And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.
[Chapter 15]

All nations once had the knowledge of God:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

The Pythagoreans were about the time of Isaiah's writings, and when Isaiah declared that YHWH dwelled in the sun, then there is a reason for that declaration at that time, when lies were taught about "what the sun was" and who had their tabernacle in it.

I have a book written by Robert Temple [who is not a Believer, and I do not subscribe to his own personal beliefs, but he has written an informative book on ancient optics] called "The Crystal Sun", which tells about the ancients' knowledge of optics, and of the Pythagoreans' belief that the sun was a rock crystal temple for Zeus to dwell in.

As you can see by Enoch's writings, the Pythoreans corrupted who YHWH =LIFE was, in the things they taught about him in their culture [Zeus means "life, as YHWH does], but they knew that the One called "Life" dwelled in a temple in the rock crystal sun.

 

[busterdog]

Thanks for those very plastic and convenient interpretations, yeshuasavedme. I hope you won't ever accuse me to playing fast and loose with the Scriptures!

No need to get nasty. He did fine.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No need to get nasty. He did fine.

Bless you, but I'm a "she". But I am in my sixty third year, and love to study the Word, and history -true history.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

... Isaiah 40 declares the glory and majesty of YHWH, and He it is who "ישב yashab" =dwells, remains, sits, abides 'in' the circle/sphere [disk], while the earth's/eretz/ dwellers/"ישב yashab" are as grasshoppers to Him..

About that dwelling YHWH set in the "sphere", over earth -He said it is the dazzingly hot sun, in Isaiah 18:4, in which "He set His tabernacle", as Psalm 19:4 states [Douay Rheims Psalm 18:5].
Translators are not inspired, and when they are without understanding and biased, one must needs go to the original Hebrew -or Greek, for themselves.

The statement that His dwelling/tabernacle is set in the sun is not alone limited to those passages. All nations once knew God, and changed His glory to that of his creation. The Pythagorians believed that the temple of Zeus [from the Greek word for "life] had his temple in the sun. And they believed that the sun was made of rock crystal. They once actually knew who God was, and where His heavenly created temple was, but they changed His glory.

They once knew the writings of Enoch, and that Enoch visited the heavenly temple, and that it was banded by pillars of fire, and that the path of the stars -constellations was above it, and that it was made of "tessalated crystal".
1 Enoch
All nations once had the knowledge of God:
The Pythagoreans were about the time of Isaiah's writings, and when Isaiah declared that YHWH dwelled in the sun, then there is a reason for that declaration at that time, when lies were taught about "what the sun was" and who had their tabernacle in it.

I have a book written by Robert Temple [who is not a Believer, and I do not subscribe to his own personal beliefs, but he has written an informative book on ancient optics] called "The Crystal Sun", which tells about the ancients' knowledge of optics, and of the Pythagoreans' belief that the sun was a rock crystal temple for Zeus to dwell in.

As you can see by Enoch's writings, the Pythoreans corrupted who YHWH =LIFE was, in the things they taught about him in their culture [Zeus means "life, as YHWH does], but they knew that the One called "Life" dwelled in a temple in the rock crystal sun.

This is from another thread of mine: I repost it here to give more proof of the truth that ancients understood that God had set His heavenly created temple in the sun -and BTW: that is as a sign itself, of His own City which He is building up, using His adopted sons as "pillars"; which Glorious City will come down from God out of heaven, in the regeneration of all things. -Funny thing is that city seems to be set over earth as the sun now is. It does not come down, it never knows night, and the Gates are never shut, There is traffic into and out of it, by the nations on earth forever. Much to learn about what He has actually planned for the generations of eternity.

I am reading the Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, very enlightening reading indeed!

I got a bit more proof of the understanding of some ancients on the residence of God in His tabernacle which He has set in the sun, the great luminary which rules the day.

on my copy published in 1994, translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, I found this in the hymns on page 355,
Col XX (=XII + frags. 54 + 60)
line 4
[For the Instruc]tor, praises and prayers to bow down and entreat always,
from period to period:
when the light comes from His residence;
in the positions of the day, according to the regulation,
in accordance to the laws of the great luminary;
at the return of the evening, at the departure of light,
when the realm of the shades begins; at the appointed moment of the night, in their stations;
at the return of dawn, at the moment when it withdraws to its quarters before the light;
at the departure of night when day enters; continually.

This is speaking of the praises and prayers offered to God from dawn to dawn, “when the light comes from His residence to the return of dawn“. Following in the hymns are some of the prayers and fragments for the entire day and night period .

I have bought myself a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Translated, but you can see this particular line discussed in an online book @ http://books.google.com/books?id=lc6...um=1&ct=result
Enjoy!

 

[Mallon]

No need to get nasty. He did fine.

Can I sell you a bridge?

 

[busterdog]

Can I sell you a bridge?

As in fraud?

Thats kind of what I thought.

Must I break out words like garbage to explain evolution and the intentions of those who promote it? That will advance the discussion mightily, I am sure!

 

[busterdog]

Bless you, but I'm a "she". But I am in my sixty third year, and love to study the Word, and history -true history.

Well, you were arguing so well and so rationally, I just assumed .....

OK, you can fish slap me now ....

Sorry.

The argument you are attacking is very dear to the evolutionists heart. There is a strong desire to find error in the Bible, because if that canard falls, then the TE starts to be threatened by a surface text that is very clear about some creation issues.

When looking at the text, we ask our TE brothers (and sisters), "do you really think that any writer thought that God was actually sitting on the horizon of the earth?" They of course say "no," out of one side of their collective mouths, "no one really thinks that, but even so, we know to a certainty from the same passages that other idioms represent literal beliefs in geocentrisms or a flat earth", out of the other side of their mouths.

They never quite understand that if you are going to arbitrarily pick and choose what is literal and what is metaphor, that arbitrary or rigidly absurd standard must be applied to their own hermeneutics. When a YEC offers high end literary rules to distinguish one from the other, you get what is happening here. They find geocentrism in a passage when they arbitrarily assume that a metaphor for sitting on the horizon was not to be taken literally.

It would be one thing to see dialogue on the relative merits, which would start with something like, "oh, yeshuasaved me, that is an interesting point, I see how you came to that reasoning, but, here is a contrary view...." So, when you are accused of being plastic, understand that what you are seeing is dogmatism based upon bad reasoning.

If the TE position was well reasoned, it would be able to find merit in your argument, but to distinguish it properly. I sincerely believe that rational human thinking betrays itself by that quality, and bad thinking by the opposite. It would recognize that my literary arguments have a certain rational basis and it would even find them interesting, even if they ultimately believe that they are wrong. So, I am proud to have conceded trouble with some YEC/inerrancy positions, though I still believe the core beliefs there are comfortably well established. I am proud to have followed along with evoltionary science and appreciated some of its elegance and rigor, while at the same time being very tough on its internal inconsistencies. But, understand that, unless things change here, it is not likely that you will get the same consideration.

I also believe that rational human thinking is not the highest and best approach to the Bible and our lives. Rather, revelation through the Holy Spirit brings the essential knowledge.

The above is probably more acerbic than it needs to be. Face to face, we probably get along just fine and agree upon many issues dear to the Church. Face to face, I bet I would even get more respect for my creationist views. But, in this forum, good reasoning is something you learn to test on your own. You do develop a certain self confidence from the exercise. But, this is not a dialogue for the most part. Dialectic process is all well and good if everything tends toward unbelief in literal passages of Genesis, meaning the dialectic model is a pretend model. Maybe this helps you to spare yourself some trouble.

 

[Melethiel]

I think you misunderstand the focus some TEs have on "geocentric" passages (I find it a rather silly line of argumentation, myself). It's not because of some huge desire to find error in the Scripture - just the opposite. We fully understand and appreciate the variety of literary styles in Scripture and the importance of hermeneutic. It's because they think that if the YEC hermeneutic were to be consistent, why don't you read those passages literally as you insist Genesis 1 must be read?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well, you were arguing so well and so rationally, I just assumed .....

OK, you can fish slap me now ....

Sorry.

The argument you are attacking is very dear to the evolutionists heart. There is a strong desire to find error in the Bible, because if that canard falls, then the TE starts to be threatened by a surface text that is very clear about some creation issues.

When looking at the text, we ask our TE brothers (and sisters), "do you really think that any writer thought that God was actually sitting on the horizon of the earth?" They of course say "no," out of one side of their collective mouths, "no one really thinks that, but even so, we know to a certainty from the same passages that other idioms represent literal beliefs in geocentrisms or a flat earth", out of the other side of their mouths.

They never quite understand that if you are going to arbitrarily pick and choose what is literal and what is metaphor, that arbitrary or rigidly absurd standard must be applied to their own hermeneutics. When a YEC offers high end literary rules to distinguish one from the other, you get what is happening here. They find geocentrism in a passage when they arbitrarily assume that a metaphor for sitting on the horizon was not to be taken literally.

It would be one thing to see dialogue on the relative merits, which would start with something like, "oh, yeshuasaved me, that is an interesting point, I see how you came to that reasoning, but, here is a contrary view...." So, when you are accused of being plastic, understand that what you are seeing is dogmatism based upon bad reasoning.

If the TE position was well reasoned, it would be able to find merit in your argument, but to distinguish it properly. I sincerely believe that rational human thinking betrays itself by that quality, and bad thinking by the opposite. It would recognize that my literary arguments have a certain rational basis and it would even find them interesting, even if they ultimately believe that they are wrong. So, I am proud to have conceded trouble with some YEC/inerrancy positions, though I still believe the core beliefs there are comfortably well established. I am proud to have followed along with evoltionary science and appreciated some of its elegance and rigor, while at the same time being very tough on its internal inconsistencies. But, understand that, unless things change here, it is not likely that you will get the same consideration.

I also believe that rational human thinking is not the highest and best approach to the Bible and our lives. Rather, revelation through the Holy Spirit brings the essential knowledge.

The above is probably more acerbic than it needs to be. Face to face, we probably get along just fine and agree upon many issues dear to the Church. Face to face, I bet I would even get more respect for my creationist views. But, in this forum, good reasoning is something you learn to test on your own. You do develop a certain self confidence from the exercise. But, this is not a dialogue for the most part. Dialectic process is all well and good if everything tends toward unbelief in literal passages of Genesis, meaning the dialectic model is a pretend model. Maybe this helps you to spare yourself some trouble.

Thank you,
Actually, I share my own personal "understandings" as I have found them. "Understanding is "revelation", or the "opening of the eyes'.
My own YEC view began immediately after I was saved by a miracle, in an encounter with God which occured in my own living room, and which was due to the intercessory prayers of my sister -who lived two thousand miles away, but who had a death burden to pray for my soul's salvation; and God heard her prayers and saved this stubborn rebel. I was raised in the Bible belt under fundamentalist preaching and knew who God was and knew I was walking in rebellion to His Word.
I yielded to His Lordship over my life that day, when He visited me in power, and have walked with Him ever since. I took up the "manufacturor's Handbook" immediately, and began reading [and have never stopped]. Within the first month of reading His Word through -after my encounter with Him by His Living Spirit that day- a day came when I was puzzled in my mind about evolution versus creation; for of course I was endoctrinated in evolution theory, as if it were fact, in government schools in the 50's. Being a natural born "thinker", I had wanted to understand the conflict, and had made excuses for God by trying to justify His Word and meld it with the evolution indoctrination which I received in schools, by accepting somehow that He created and then it evolved -"TE"; but that day came in which I was puzzling in my heart about the matter, He asked spoke point blank to my mind, and asked me this question, in these words; "Now what do you believe".
At that moment, in His presense, I declared to Him that " I believed His Word, no matter what He said, and did not accept any contradiction to it -and would never do so".
But that's just how I began my journey with Him, as a baby Believer. Since then, He has given me much education [raised me up from babyhood], on why His Word is true, and shown me that it stands the test ot time, and rebukes the doctrines of fallible men -who are always changing their minds.

I have only recently taken the actual Word of God "out" to examine it critically, on the passages that teach geocentrism. The evidence was too overwhelmingly against helioccentrism to "believe" that anymore [ I really did not "believe "it, I just hadn't examined the matter as I now have, from the point of His Word, and I actually did not think about using a "revolving earth" in my speech or writing, and there was a nagging conviction in the back of my mind that pointed out the contradiction to the Word of God that it was, but I did not take it out and examine it, as I said], and it is wonderful to discover that God has always been true in His Word, and that there is much information in ancient historical writings that prove His Word is true, and was believed -and was corrupted by men, as Paul wrote.

So what I do when I write on these boards is to show my own journeys and the conclusions, and how I got there.
Have a nice day.

BTW: Ostrich minds know no gender boundaries, nor does the opening of the eyes know gender boundaries.
My own prayer for some years has been that which David expressed in Psalm 119: Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. -and I'm not KJ only, I was just raised on it [not at home, just in Church were I attended] and my familiarity with it enables me to look up passages in the Strong's concordance quickly, with the key words that I remember; otherwise, I like it like this: גלה עין ` נבט פלא תורה; galah ayin nabat pala' towrah

 

[Mallon]

for of course I was endoctrinated in evolution theory, as if it were fact, in government schools in the 50's.

Wasn't the teaching of evolution in the US public schools pretty much banned by the 1950s as a result of fundamentalist lobby groups and fallout from the Scopes trial? I thought evolution only started to be taught again in the US with the adoption of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study in the early 60s.

 

[busterdog]

I think you misunderstand the focus some TEs have on "geocentric" passages (I find it a rather silly line of argumentation, myself). It's not because of some huge desire to find error in the Scripture - just the opposite. We fully understand and appreciate the variety of literary styles in Scripture and the importance of hermeneutic. It's because they think that if the YEC hermeneutic were to be consistent, why don't you read those passages literally as you insist Genesis 1 must be read?

I was about to thank you for the observation, but now I am not sure what you are saying.

To me there isnt much difference between "error" and a "variety of literary styles" if the latter style is one of ignorance about whether the earth is round or in orbit. I dont care that much about the perspective of the scribe, though I think the case for the geocentric worldview at this time is way overblown. The question is whether this passage is consistent with a omniscent God directing this passage be written as one intended idiomatically.

As far as consistency is concerned, we have gone over the rules time and again. My rules are based upon the internal consistency of the text and clear manifest intent from the subject of the narrative -- but of course, I also square it separately on the basis of presumed inerrancy. These are two independent analysis. I hesitate to belabor the point.

I do wonder, however, why the TE view of geocentrism will not distinguish cogently "sitting on the circle of the earth" from "the sun rises and returns to the place form which it came."

And I will say that inerrancy does not answer all questions. When Jesus says, "this is my body", the rules I use suggest he means he is eating flesh, not bread. Now, I can figure it out. But, I also admit the stumbling block.

The text at hand however, is not a difficult in the least.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Wasn't the teaching of evolution in the US public schools pretty much banned by the 1950s as a result of fundamentalist lobby groups and fallout from the Scopes trial? I thought evolution only started to be taught again in the US with the adoption of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study in the early 60s.

I remember a 7th grade social science book which had the phoney ape-men parading across the cover -complete with their families, too! I was just exactly 12, in my 13th year, for that entire school year. That was 1958, in KY. We were brainwashed to believe that this was "fact".
I do not trust government schools on any level [nor do I trust many private ones], and for that reason we finally began homeschooling our children, after first experiencing years of more and more deteroriation of the quality of education which they were receiving -and the propaganda fed them became too much to have to undo each day, so we just opted out and taught them ourselves -and they are quite successful, thank you!

 

[Mallon]

I remember a 7th grade social science book which had the phoney ape-men parading across the cover -complete with their families, too! I was just exactly 12, in my 13th year, for that entire school year. That was 1958, in KY.

Were you actively taught the material, or did it just appear in some of your textbooks?

We were brainwashed to believe that this was "fact".

How were you brainwashed?

I do not trust government schools on any level [nor do I trust many private ones], and for that reason we finally began homeschooling our children, after first experiencing years of more and more deteroriation of the quality of education which they were receiving -and the propaganda fed them became too much to have to undo each day, so we just opted out and taught them ourselves -and they are quite successful, thank you!

Can I ask which textbooks you used to teach your children?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I do wonder, however, why the TE view of geocentrism will not distinguish cogently "sitting on the circle of the earth" from "the sun rises and returns to the place form which it came."

The Hebrew is easily translated [He] dwells [within/in the] "circle".... So what is the circle that He dwells in? The solar "disk".
In the Word, God has a created temple in the created heavens in which He has a dwelling, a temple. That created Temple is set in the sun, He states, in Psalm 19:4 [18:5 in Doauy Rheims]; and the dazzingly hot sun is His dwelling, as He states in Isaiah 18:4 -in the Hebrew.
The Psalms of praises were to be sung to YHWH from the moment "when the light comes forth from His dwelling" -the break of day- to the time when dawn comes again, in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Consistently, the sun rises and sets; once stood still "36 moments/times" [however that is to be understood, it was about "a whole day"] as the Book of Jasher reports on Joshua's long day, and the sun went backwards ten degrees once, as a sign to Hezekiah.