Creationism is NOT Biblical

[Assyrian]

You didn't answer it in the context in which it was asked.

its irrelevant what i know or don't know. I asked you to explain to the hypothetical person.

Explain all those relationships to a person who has only ever known their mother/father and sister. How do you define close relative to him, when he has no concept of the word 'relative'?

This is just playing games. If you have a serious point to make, make it.

Nobody has ever said Adam procreated with anyone but Eve, and that is implicit in Gods command in Gen 2:24.

You are trying to justify Cain having an incestuous relationship with his sister by saying Adam and Eve were even more incestuous? You really think that is a good argument? All you are showing is how weird the literal interpretation can be. Read that verse you quoted Genesis 2:24, it tells you what the passage is really about. Gen 2:24 Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh.

I am surprised you haven't bought up Noahs family, or Abraham. I ain't going to follow your tangents to help you evade the question I asked of you. I can explain Lot's story but I will save that for later.

I think the only evasion here is you looking for incest to be explained to unknown hypothetical persons. Noah's grandchildren, even if you take the flood as global, would only have had to marry their cousins, not their sisters or their own daughter.

 

[huldah153]

I'll also point out that in the Hebrew law of inheritance, the oldest male is the heir. If Adam and Eve had all these other children before Cain killed Abel, then the oldest male among them would be heir and not Seth.

 

[marktheblake]

I then the oldest male among them would be heir and not Seth.

Where did you get idea that Seth was the 'heir' ?

 

[huldah153]

Where did you get idea that Seth was the 'heir' ?

Since Seth was seen as the replacement for Abel, he would therefore have been heir to all rights and responsibilities of the first-born son.

 

[Ave Maria]

Actually Creationism is the most Biblical of all the views. Take a look at this verse from the first chapter of Genesis:

Genesis 1:5 NKJV God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The evening and the morning were the first day. Clearly this is referring to a 24 hour day.

 

[Assyrian]

Actually Creationism is the most Biblical of all the views. Take a look at this verse from the first chapter of Genesis:

Genesis 1:5 NKJV God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The evening and the morning were the first day. Clearly this is referring to a 24 hour day.

How is that a 24 hour day?

 

[huldah153]

Actually Creationism is the most Biblical of all the views. Take a look at this verse from the first chapter of Genesis:

Genesis 1:5 NKJV God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The evening and the morning were the first day. Clearly this is referring to a 24 hour day.

That's a good point, but an entire eon can have a morning and evening too. As the preeminent biologist Ronald Fisher explained...

To the traditionally religious man, the essential novelty introduced by the theory of the evolution of organic life, is that creation was not all finished a long while ago, but is still in progress, in the midst of its incredible duration. In the language of Genesis we are living in the sixth day, probably rather early in the morning, and the Divine Artist has not yet stood back from his work, and declared it to be "very good." Perhaps that can only be when God's very imperfect image has become more competent to manage the affairs of the planet of which he is in control.

 

[Critias]

Cain joined the sixth day people of Genesis 1:26-28 that have been around for millions of years. My post on the differences between the sixth and seventh day races is here.

Does the Bible say Cain joined the sixth day people who had been around for millions of year? If so, where do you see that? I don't see any reference that would give the indication of millions of years, but I could be missing it.

 

[marktheblake]

Since Seth was seen as the replacement for Abel

Yes that is right, Eve lost a son and gained a son. It doesn't matter if she only had two sons or 20, neither situation is contradicted by that.

he would therefore have been heir to all rights and responsibilities of the first-born son.

How you can make this connection? Abel wasn't even the first born himself, Cain was.

 

[marktheblake]

I am not sure why you expect me to come up with more scholarly resources for you, I have already pointed you to one of the best Hebrew Grammars around. Do you own research.

I don't need to. Your claim doesn't have any support at all - if it did you would have pointed to some published works that substantiate your claim that there were other people around apart from the Adam family.

If you are right this would be the final nail in the coffin for the likes of anyone who claims Genesis as literal truth. So why are you wasting your time in forums when you could be doing the speaker circuit and making thousands with this.

 

[Assyrian]

I don't need to. Your claim doesn't have any support at all - if it did you would have pointed to some published works that substantiate your claim that there were other people around apart from the Adam family.

If you are right this would be the final nail in the coffin for the likes of anyone who claims Genesis as literal truth. So why are you wasting your time in forums when you could be doing the speaker circuit and making thousands with this.

So you don't have anything then.

 

[Assyrian]

Yes that is right, Eve lost a son and gained a son. It doesn't matter if she only had two sons or 20, neither situation is contradicted by that.

She doesn't actually say another son, which you might expect if there were other sons and daughters around. It is 'another seed'. Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, "For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed." The use of the word 'appointed' is another indication that Seth took the official role of promised seed.

How you can make this connection? Abel wasn't even the first born himself, Cain was.

But he was an outcast. You can lose you birthright, just ask Esau.

 

[marktheblake]

So you don't have anything then.

Yes you are right, all i have is the support of all the bible commentaries that I have ever come across, and your alone in your opinion. What I dont understand is why are you not famous now, seeings you have defeated creationist with one word?

The use of the word 'appointed' is another indication that Seth took the official role of promised seed.

Thats no evidence of Seth being the third born.

But he was an outcast. You can lose you birthright, just ask Esau.

Cain was never outcast until after he killed Abel, so what evidence do you have of Abel having the birthright or blessing when he was alive - as it would seem you support this claim that the other guy made

 

[Assyrian]

Yes you are right, all i have is the support of all the bible commentaries that I have ever come across, and your alone in your opinion. What I dont understand is why are you not famous now, seeings you have defeated creationist with one word?

Creationism was defeated long before I came along when 19 century geology showed the earth was much older than Ussher claimed. But if you have any commentaries that discuss the use of the waw consecutive in genealogies in Genesis 5 please quote them. Don't just claim all the commentaries support you.

Thats no evidence of Seth being the third born.

Sure it is.

Cain was never outcast until after he killed Abel, so what evidence do you have of Abel having the birthright or blessing when he was alive - as it would seem you support this claim that the other guy made

Didn't Jacob have to wait until his father was dying to receive the birthright and blessing? He was still God choice from before the twins were born though.

Eve tells us Abel was the appointed seed. Gen 4:25 for God has appointed to me another seed in place of Abel because Cain killed him. In other words Abel was God's appointed seed before Cain killed him and God appointed another seed. Abel would have been second in line for the blessing after Cain, who showed he clearly wasn't the promised seed. Interesting, this looks like a picture of the resurrection. Abel the appointed seed was murdered, but God raised up the appointed seed again (as it were).

 

[marktheblake]

Creationism was defeated long before I came along

Well Obviously the creationists havent noticed, cos they are still kicking, they even have websites now. Your argument would shut them down, so why are you arguing with muppets like me? you could become famous?

But if you have any commentaries that discuss the use of the waw consecutive in genealogies in Genesis 5 please quote them.

The waw consecutive in the Gen 5 genealogies is YOUR argument - you support it. Obviously you cannot otherwise you would have done so already.

Didn't Jacob have to wait until his father was dying to receive the birthright and blessing?

You need to do some homework, you appear to be fundamentally confused about the birthright and blessings - they are different things. Which doesnt bode well for you in your argument.

Jacob conned Esau out of his Birthright for a bowl of soup, then much later Jacob conned a dying blind Isaac into granting the Blessing meant for Esau.

Eve tells us Abel was the appointed seed.

Thank you! Abel was not the first born, the birthright and blessing was never his, therefore the appointed seed is not necessarily the right of the first born. Now we are getting somewhere.

Gen 4:25 for God has appointed to me another seed in place of Abel because Cain killed him. In other words Abel was God's appointed seed before Cain killed him and God appointed another seed.

That DOES NOT mean Seth was the third child - he could have been but that does not make it exclusive.

You have already proven that the 'appointed seed' is not necessarily the firstborn so you cannot use that as an argument that Seth was the 3rd child and this became the first born. The geneology from Adam to Christ is a long list of many second borns

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The straightforward reading of Genesis 4:13-15 has Cain being sent to another land, and fearing a group of people who were unrelated to him. If the only other people who existed were Adam and Eve, then who was Cain afraid of? And more specifically, where did Cain's wife come from? .

No such a thing as "another land". Can went wandering east of Eden. Nod is to wander".
Cain feared all the people who were related to him and to Abel, for having slain Abel, they were responsible for slaying Cain, to avenge Abel's blood.
Cain's wife was his sister, as Abel's was. From the beginning, the gene pool was perfect, and through time, because of the corruption of sin, the gene pool became defective, and marrying siblings became taboo because of the double whammy of mutated genes.
Abraham married his brother Haran's daughter, Sarai. Abraham's brother Nahor married Sarai's sister, Milcha. Marrying sisters was popular in all the nations around Israel -and even the Pharoh's married their sisters at that time- when Moses finally forbad it by the Law, and still was popular in Roman times -causing more than one idiot to be born to the rich and famous.
Even David's daughter Tamar, told David's son Amnon -her half brother- that David would give her to him as wife if he asked. -But Amnon forced her and despised her and sent her away -and lost his life for it later, when Tamar's brother, Absolom, slew him for it.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Sa&c=13&v=1&t=KJV#1

Moses [and then Joshua] also wrote the [real] Book of Jasher =the Upright Record- a history of the Patriarch's, from the beginning up to the time of Joshua entering Canaan, and any details of the events are made clear in the reading of that book. Cain wandered east of Eden. Adam and Eve had sons and daughters as commanded, and multiplying of the Adam kind continued as the males and females were born, grew up, and married and had sons and daughters and so on and so forth.

Jasher 1:12 And the Lord God drove them that day from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which they were taken, and they went and dwelt at the east of the garden of Eden; and Adam knew his wife Eve and she bore two sons and three daughters.

....

Jasher 1:33 And at that time Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, from the place where he was, and he went moving and wandering in the land toward the east of Eden, he and all belonging to him.

34 And Cain knew his wife in those days, and she conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Enoch, saying, In that time the Lord began to give him rest and quiet in the earth.

http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well Obviously the creationists havent noticed, cos they are still kicking, they even have websites now. Your argument would shut them down, so why are you arguing with muppets like me? you could become famous?

The waw consecutive in the Gen 5 genealogies is YOUR argument - you support it. Obviously you cannot otherwise you would have done so already.

You need to do some homework, you appear to be fundamentally confused about the birthright and blessings - they are different things. Which doesnt bode well for you in your argument.

Jacob conned Esau out of his Birthright for a bowl of soup, then much later Jacob conned a dying blind Isaac into granting the Blessing meant for Esau.

Thank you! Abel was not the first born, the birthright and blessing was never his, therefore the appointed seed is not necessarily the right of the first born. Now we are getting somewhere.

That DOES NOT mean Seth was the third child - he could have been but that does not make it exclusive.

You have already proven that the 'appointed seed' is not necessarily the firstborn so you cannot use that as an argument that Seth was the 3rd child and this became the first born. The geneology from Adam to Christ is a long list of many second borns

And on that note, Jesus Christ is not the "first born" human being son of God, but is the "Firstborn" Son of God of the human kind, cause Adam lost the birthright and the kingdom at the fall. A New, second, Man was formed in the womb of the virgin, and YHWH,the Word, dressed Himself in that New Man body of second creation human being flesh and came as the only created brother to Adam with the power, the will, and the legal right to serve as Kinsman/Redeemer.
the shadow of that is in Isaac's sacrifice, when YHWH said to Abraham; "take now thy son, thine only", =Greek "monogenes". Ishmael was the first son of Abraham, but Isaac is the "firstborn", the "only begotten son".
and as Firstborn Son of God, JEsus Christ is now the "Everlasting Father" [Isaiah 9] of the second human being race of mankind", and all His "seed =sons by adoption", are got by the Atonement, cleansed and adopted from Adam's lost seed [whosoever will can come and be mae a son of God in the New Man name, by adoption =second birth of spirit into His Living Spirit].

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I'll also point out that in the Hebrew law of inheritance, the oldest male is the heir. If Adam and Eve had all these other children before Cain killed Abel, then the oldest male among them would be heir and not Seth.

Eve is referring to the "promised "Seed" who would slay the head/power/authority of the serpent, as promised in Genesis 3, at the time of the fall. The Seed would come through Seth, but Eve expected the Seed to be "Seth", and apparently she expected herself to be the "Woman" of Genesis 3, whose promised seed would slay the head/power/authority, of the serpent. Eve was wrong on identifying the "Woman", as Jacob was wrong on identifying "the Woman" of Joseph's dream, also, and as many people are wrong on identifying the Woman of Rev 12, who is one and the same Woman, and who is Zion of the Spirit, personified and seen in a star sign, hiding, when the Church =the man-child- is raptured to heaven from earth.

As I said: the Woman is Zion of the Spirit, personified, and the Seed is the second Man, a New Man creation, whose body was formed in the womb of a virgin for the Son of Man from heaven to dress Himself in, to be Kinsman/Redeemer to Adamkind. His name, as the second Man, is "Israel", as Isaiah 49 so states, and He gave His own New Man name to come, to Jacob, as a sign of the adoption to come, in His name, in His season of the Atonement fulfilled. He is Christ the Living Spirit come in human being flesh of second creation. We call Him Jesus =Salvation, but the Father called His name "Israel", just as the first man is called "Adam".

 

[Assyrian]

Well Obviously the creationists havent noticed, cos they are still kicking, they even have websites now. Your argument would shut them down, so why are you arguing with muppets like me? you could become famous?

Astrology has gone down the tubes too, as have flat earth and geocentrism. No great fame to be had disproving them, but it is worth talking to brothers in the Lord who had been taken in by bad teaching.

But if you have any commentaries that discuss the use of the waw consecutive in genealogies in Genesis 5 please quote them.

The waw consecutive in the Gen 5 genealogies is YOUR argument - you support it. Obviously you cannot otherwise you would have done so already.

So no commentaries to quote then. The waw consecutive is basic Hebrew grammar, and I have supported it. If you don't want to accept it that is up to you. It would help your argument if you came up with some evidence to support your view rather than playing rhetorical games pretending I am the one who need to support my position. This is getting tedious. If you have nothing to back up your case why not simply drop it?

You need to do some homework, you appear to be fundamentally confused about the birthright and blessings - they are different things. Which doesnt bode well for you in your argument.

My argument doe not depend on the relationship between birthright and blessings.

Jacob conned Esau out of his Birthright for a bowl of soup, then much later Jacob conned a dying blind Isaac into granting the Blessing meant for Esau.

Not that it matters, but what do you think Jacob got in his birthright that was not conferred in the blessing?

Eve tells us Abel was the appointed seed.

Thank you! Abel was not the first born, the birthright and blessing was never his, therefore the appointed seed is not necessarily the right of the first born. Now we are getting somewhere.

You don't think being the appointed seed was the birthright or blessing? Eve tells us Abel was the appointed seed.

That DOES NOT mean Seth was the third child - he could have been but that does not make it exclusive.

It is the simple meaning of the text. It makes no sense if Seth had older brothers and sisters.

You have already proven that the 'appointed seed' is not necessarily the firstborn so you cannot use that as an argument that Seth was the 3rd child and this became the first born. The genealogy from Adam to Christ is a long list of many second borns

Can you point out any in the relevant Genesis 5 Genealogy with the waw consecutives? Seth was third born. Are the second borns we do see in the later genealogies the norm, or are they an exception to the normal procedure. Why say 'the older will serve the younger', if that was normal practice?

The genealogy tells us the other brothers and sisters were born after Seth. There is nothing in the text that says Seth had older brothers and sisters and Eve speaks of Seth at his birth as if he was the son and heir, and her only child. The only reason to read to text any differently is to make it fit what you think it should say.

If you think the birthright automatically went to the second born then why didn't it go to one of older brothers you think Seth had? According to your argument Cain missed out because he was oldest and Abel as second born got the blessing. When Abel was murdered the blessing of second born should have gone to the next oldest, one of Seth's older brothers of he had any. Your argument shows Seth did not have any older brothers, as the waw consecutive in the genealogy already told us.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Astrology has gone down the tubes too, as have flat earth and geocentrism. No great fame to be had disproving them, but it is worth talking to brothers in the Lord who had been taken in by bad teaching.


.

Believers never believed the stars had powers over them.
The ancients never believed the earth was flat. It was always a globe in ancient writings and depictions. The Dead Sea Scrolls have writings which call the earth a globe, many times.
A flat earth belief came into existence only after the suppression of the Truth of God's Word, destruction of ancient libraries by barbarians [and later Islamics] who invaded civilized cities, and entry of the last world wide dark age of information and technology which came as a result of those invasions and book burnings.
Geo-centrism is not "gone", but stands as the Truth of God's Word, from Genesis 1 -through Revelation; the Book of Jasher; and the writings of Enoch.
Biblically; the sun [in which sun God's Word declares that He set His tabernacle in the heavens, and that He dwells in that tabernacle set in the sun], has a course to run, daily, and rises and sets and goes around the earth, dividing night from day.
Biblically, the earth is fixed, as the center point of creation and of God's special design and care, and the constellations were set in the heavens to be for signs and seasons [yearly signs and spiritual signs, of God's plan], along with the sun and moon] for earth.