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Creationism Curiosity

Hespera

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It's also impressive just how many absolutely beautifully preserved many fossils are! Tiktaaalik and the Berlin specimen come to mind. The other thing to remember is that not every bone needs to be seen to reconstruct a specimen, or see what it represents in terms of evolution. If a paleontologist saw a piece of a jawbone joint and some teeth, it's possible to conclude that it representts a transitional form between reptiles and mammals.


Diarthrognathus, I believe is the one you are thinking of.

I love fossils! Some are just so amazingly beautiful. I've been lucky to actually be able to go out a few times with paleontologists. I found a nice Oreodont skull. Some sort of sheep size vegetarian with evidently a bit of a trunk. About 20 million years old, and here it is. If I didnt find it in a few months or years it will crumble away to nothing. Fossil turtles all over the place, but usually in pieces. What fun to go to those places.

One of my favorites to find is an Ammonite. I never have found a trilobite but some day i hope i will. Just have to be in the right place.
 
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Lobster

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Diarthrognathus, I believe is the one you are thinking of.

I love fossils! Some are just so amazingly beautiful. I've been lucky to actually be able to go out a few times with paleontologists. I found a nice Oreodont skull. Some sort of sheep size vegetarian with evidently a bit of a trunk. About 20 million years old, and here it is. If I didnt find it in a few months or years it will crumble away to nothing. Fossil turtles all over the place, but usually in pieces. What fun to go to those places.

One of my favorites to find is an Ammonite. I never have found a trilobite but some day i hope i will. Just have to be in the right place.

I wasn't thinking of a particular mammaliform, but if the describes those dudes it's perfect. :D

The digs sound awesome, the only thing I've ever found was a really big fossil snail.
 
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Hespera

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Creationism simply states that God created the world. It doesn't tell us how God created the world. Until we know the mechanisms, we can't make predictions. It's an unfair question.

Thank you for biting and offering your replies. :thumbsup: I am currently sorting though this thread (its gotten quite long!), and I hope to be able to address many of these issues over the next few days.

This particular statement stood out to me, and I wanted to respond to it before many others as it seems to be quite pertinent. If a hypothesis produces no predictions (or has simply not gotten to that point yet), then it does not meet the criteria. On the basis of this most basic point alone, it would seem that the creationism you describe does not meet the criteria of adequacy of scientific explanation. This seems almost silly to state, but a necessary condition for scientific explanations are successful, fruitful predictions.

Also, creationism (as most describe it) states far more than simply "God created the world." If we want to discuss something other than YEC, OEC and ID, we can do this--but we'll need to define our terms.
 
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It does. A suggestion is only that, a suggestion. It is not a proof.

So, if I heard thunder and I suggested it to you that it is an action of God, it is a valid suggestion.

Since we do not really understand ANY natural phenomenon, this is, indeed, a very strong suggestion of creation.

I've addressed the use of the words suggestion and proof in scientific discourse once already. I am wholly uninterested in nebulous semantics games. Sorry.
 
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Split Rock

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I think everything physical and spiritual belongs to God. I guess that's just a difference of opinion.
You asked for the definition of "nature" and I gave it to you.


Not much :) It can, however, tell you if you're headed to eternal life or not, and what you can do about it.
That does not help explain the diversity and distribution of life on earth. Evolution does.


Gosh. Find me better evidence than that, and maybe I'll consider it :D
Funny.... that is the same view I have of creationism! ^_^


False. You can't have evolution without natural selection. You can have natural selection without evolution. For example: Animals were created in 6 days, 6000 years ago; after that, natural selection allows each species to adapt to its changing environment.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I am a biologist. Let me give you the definitions, since we use the theory in practice.

Evolution: Descent with modification, or a change in gene frequencies of a population over time.

Natural Selection: Differential reproductive success. Those best adapted to their environment are more likely to reproduce and pass on their genetic material to teh next generation.

You can indeed have evolution without Natural Selection, by way of other mechanisms. Such as: Gene Flow and Genetic Drift.


We all have to weigh up the evidence ourselves. For me, the evidence is insufficient to justify the conclusion of Evolution.
Based on what? Your misunderstandings of what evolution and natural selection are??


No, religion doesn't invalidate science. The two are in harmony. Science is the study of what God has made. I fully support science. I just think we need more evidence before embracing Evolution. And I think we need to be open-minded, as scientists, about the possibility of a God.
Being open-minded about God is irrelevent to doing science. It may act as an incentive to explore God's work... that is fine.

Science will never prove the existance of God. Because, science starts with the assumption that there is no God.
True, as we cannot determine the influence of supernatural cause on an experiemnt.

I wouldn't want to change this, because I think it's a very useful model for investigating the world - there's no excuse for 'black boxes'. However we shouldn't let it blind us to what might really be happening.
Honestly, I have been participating in this forum for years, and no creationist has ever opened my eyes to anything but how confused and narrow-minded creationism is.
 
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On the issue of God using evolution as a creation tool:

Evolution is both random (genetic mutation resulting in phenotypic effects that are detrimental, neutral, or positive) and deterministic (survivors and reproducers are selected via a blind process of environmental pressure--"mother nature" has no agency). To concede the point of natural selection is to concede to the issue in its entirety, as the diversification of life via a deterministic natural process (acting on an essentially random basis of mutation) is in fundamental opposition to the idea of a Grand Old Designer, tightening the screws as he goes. Determinism is an inherent property of natural selection--YECs know this, and it is why they generally keep to their own theology rather than siding with the wishy-washy Intelligent Design camp. ID (as described by Behe) generally concedes the issue of natural selection, and then tries to "argue by anomaly" via irreducible complexity to assert the necessity of the G.O.D for at least some biological mechanisms. He shoots himself in the foot with this, as irreducible complexity is yet another argumentum ad ignorantiam--every example of which has been specifically refuted, to add insult to injury.

Wow.. never thought I'd agree with a YEC on something. :thumbsup:
 
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lostaquarium

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Thank you for biting and offering your replies. :thumbsup: I am currently sorting though this thread (its gotten quite long!), and I hope to be able to address many of these issues over the next few days.

This particular statement stood out to me, and I wanted to respond to it before many others as it seems to be quite pertinent. If a hypothesis produces no predictions (or has simply not gotten to that point yet), then it does not meet the criteria. On the basis of this most basic point alone, it would seem that the creationism you describe does not meet the criteria of adequacy of scientific explanation. This seems almost silly to state, but a necessary condition for scientific explanations are successful, fruitful predictions.

Also, creationism (as most describe it) states far more than simply "God created the world." If we want to discuss something other than YEC, OEC and ID, we can do this--but we'll need to define our terms.
I think we may have opposite goals here.

You say Creationism isn't useful for scientific study - this I totally agree with. But scientific study doesn't encompass everything there is to know about the world. Plenty of what you believe (and what is true) does not come from the scientific literature.

I don't just want to fulfill some scientific criterea so I can publish in Nature. I want to figure out what's actually out there.

What's the scientific proof that your mother loves you?
 
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lostaquarium

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That does not help explain the diversity and distribution of life on earth. Evolution does.
Actually, both do. It's just that you're convinced by one and I'm convinced by the other.

Funny.... that is the same view I have of creationism! ^_^
I wish you'd look around for the evidence for Creationism, without just discarding it. There's more than you realise. Maybe read the Bible and get to know the other indications of God's existance.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I am a biologist. Let me give you the definitions, since we use the theory in practice.

Evolution: Descent with modification, or a change in gene frequencies of a population over time.
^^ That's very different from what I heard. So, can evolution be, "Descent with modification by God, or a change in gene frequencies of a population over time as done by God"?

Being open-minded about God is irrelevent to doing science. It may act as an incentive to explore God's work... that is fine.
I wasn't arguing with the goal of "doing science". You're really narrowing the discussion.
 
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Tenka

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lostaquaruim said:
What's the scientific proof that your mother loves you?
Well since love is a subjective term you would need to decide on a definition that both you and your mother agree on, then you fling her on a polygraph machine.
So, can evolution be, "Descent with modification by God, or a change in gene frequencies of a population over time as done by God"?
What does God do and how do you measure it?
 
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Dojima

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Creationism means just explaining a phenomenon being created as opposed to explaining it came randomly into being. If you stumble around in Egypt, and you come across a pyramid, you would explain it as created by an intelligence. You would not explain it as crated by random events such as wind and sandstorms. That's what the word means. Created by a intelligent designer. Creation-ism. It has nothing to do with religion or Christianity. It's a valid scientific term like digital (expressed in discontinuous values) or relative (depending on something else).
It was banned from the scientific community. I don't know why. But as a scientist you can't ever explain anything as created, even if that is the logic conclusion. It costs you your job. Everything must be explained as come into being randomly.

Suppressing certain explanations because they go against narrow political ideology is as bad as medieval church dogma. Where would science be without freedom of thought? It's saying this explanation is ok, but if you even mention this one you are fired. If an explanation is bad, it will quickly be discredited.
 
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Hespera

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Creationism means just explaining a phenomenon being created as opposed to explaining it came randomly into being. If you stumble around in Egypt, and you come across a pyramid, you would explain it as created by an intelligence. You would not explain it as crated by random events such as wind and sandstorms. That's what the word means. Created by a intelligent designer. Creation-ism. It has nothing to do with religion or Christianity. It's a valid scientific term like digital (expressed in discontinuous values) or relative (depending on something else).



i wonder why other than total willful ignorance you guys KEEP talking about 'random' complete with third grade examples. Try this if its not too hard. You see ice crystals, frost, growing on your window. is god pushing each molecule into place? is it random? Now do you see that non-random things can grow without god pushing them into place?

It was banned from the scientific community.

If you seriously dont know, it is simple. No science. Only science is part of the 'science community". Bring in even one piece..its never been done but hey go for it... bring in one piece of data that supports creationism and ti will get a hearing.

I don't know why. But as a scientist you can't ever explain anything as created, even if that is the logic conclusion. It costs you your job. Everything must be explained as come into being randomly.

This is made up nonsense. You probably mean "logical" not "logic" but bad logic alone doesnt cut it. Bring in some data. No data, no nothing. The bit about getting fired is nonsense.


Suppressing certain explanations because they go against narrow political ideology is as bad as medieval church dogma.

Nothing is being suppressed. Are you one of the tinfoil hatters who thinks there is a world wide conspiracy including people who dont even know of the christian cult of creationism. Tell me you are not, please...? IF a researcher brings in good data, or does not, that is what counts. No, i repeat, no good data exists for creaitonism. There is nothing to suppress!


Where would science be without freedom of thought? It's saying this explanation is ok, but if you even mention this one you are fired.

False, complete with NO examples.


If an explanation is bad, it will quickly be discredited.

On good,you got one right. Creationism is not an explanation at all, let alone a good one. It has not data. no data. no data. no facts. nothing. is there anything to more completely define an idea that needs discrediting?

If creationism had anything going for it then it would not be ncessary to just repeat the same moldy falsehoods accusing others of wrongdoing, instead, it could proudly presents is panoply of facts. An inconvenient truth there.... there are no facts.
 
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Dojima

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You see ice crystals, frost, growing on your window. is god pushing each molecule into place? is it random? Now do you see that non-random things can grow without god pushing them into place?

Sure there is randomness. I'm not saying that nothing is random, just that not everything is.

If you seriously dont know, it is simple. No science. Only science is part of the 'science community". Bring in even one piece..its never been done but hey go for it... bring in one piece of data that supports creationism and ti will get a hearing.

So we should suppress certain ideas from being put forward? Is there a list of those ideas somewhere? Who makes that list?

Nothing is being suppressed. Are you one of the tinfoil hatters who thinks there is a world wide conspiracy including people who dont even know of the christian cult of creationism. Tell me you are not, please...? IF a researcher brings in good data, or does not, that is what counts. No, i repeat, no good data exists for creaitonism. There is nothing to suppress!

Sure there is. I can't post links yet, but go to youtube and search "Free Global Energy P-10".

False, complete with NO examples.

On good,you got one right. Creationism is not an explanation at all, let alone a good one. It has not data. no data. no data. no facts. nothing. is there anything to more completely define an idea that needs discrediting?

If creationism had anything going for it then it would not be ncessary to just repeat the same moldy falsehoods accusing others of wrongdoing, instead, it could proudly presents is panoply of facts. An inconvenient truth there.... there are no facts.

So you are saying that nobody is suppressing creationism, but it should be suppressed. Ok.
Tell me exactly which kind of ideas are allowed in your world of science.
 
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Hespera

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Doj...

It is not "my world of science". And dont put words in my mouth. I would not, no real scientist would want any real info suppressed. The reason people go into research is simple. They are curious, and they want to know things.

You seem to equate ignoring nonsense with suppressing facts. There is no "list". There are just standards. Like that there has to be verifiable data. if you have ever met any researchers, you know that. If you have not, that may explain your odd belief.

The way science works is that you need to have data. Information that can be verified. Creationism has absolutely no data whatsoever. The word 'suppression" does not even apply.

You want to propose that there is an alien base in your teeth? You have some data to back that claim? No? Out you go. Call it suppression if you like, but it isnt. it is ignoring nonsense.

I see that we agree that not "everything' is random. Surely nobody on earth things that.

Do you have a point to make other than your mistaken belief that creationism has something real to offer, but them bad scientists suppress it?
 
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Dojima

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It is not "my world of science". And dont put words in my mouth. I would not, no real scientist would want any real info suppressed. The reason people go into research is simple. They are curious, and they want to know things.

You seem to equate ignoring nonsense with suppressing facts. There is no "list". There are just standards. Like that there has to be verifiable data. if you have ever met any researchers, you know that. If you have not, that may explain your odd belief.

The way science works is that you need to have data. Information that can be verified. Creationism has absolutely no data whatsoever. The word 'suppression" does not even apply.

You want to propose that there is an alien base in your teeth? You have some data to back that claim? No? Out you go. Call it suppression if you like, but it isnt. it is ignoring nonsense.

I see that we agree that not "everything' is random. Surely nobody on earth things that.

Creationism is an explanation of phenomenons. Any explanation is as valid as the other one. It is science that should determine what is true.

And some ideas are not just ignores, they are actively suppressed, with repercussions for scientists.

You should watch this. (I just spammed 20 posts to be able to post links, just for you dear.)


Scientific Dogma
 
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Hespera

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No thanks doj all due respect. Mo videos. Tell me what YOU know.

"Any explanation is as valid as another one" ? Tell me you didnt say that.

An explanation is only as valid as the data it has to back it up. Creationism has no data; simple. it has no demonstrated validity as an explanation.

Its like that in court, too. You better have theatre ticket stubs if that;s your alibi! Saying your explanation is just as good as the detectives wont impress anyone if he has survellance video of you doing what HE says you did, and you have nothing.

There is no point in saying that any evidence or data has been suppressed when there is no data.

What about this is worth discussing if "creationism" has not so much as one data point on a graph? Which it does not!

Show me valid data to back creationism and i will show you that you are on your way to a Nobel.

if you cant show me any this is a waste of time.
 
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juvenissun

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Creationism is an explanation of phenomenons. Any explanation is as valid as the other one. It is science that should determine what is true.

And some ideas are not just ignores, they are actively suppressed, with repercussions for scientists.

You should watch this. (I just spammed 20 posts to be able to post links, just for you dear.)


Scientific Dogma

I have 100% academic freedom. There are tons of studies based on evolution floating around. I attack everyone of them as much, and as freely as I can. People (mostly evolutionists) only praise me on what I am doing.

Science is on the side of God. No question about it.
 
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Hespera

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Be it noted that juv does not buy the conspiracy theory about how no creationist is allowed to speak. Good. maybe we wont have to hear any more of that cra[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]imo.

An attack on any idea is fair and desirable. Play fair, use data, and let the best ideas win in the marketplace of ideas. Science proceeds by trying to falsify the current ideas.

I would praise juv to the skies if he could find one way to falsify anything at all about evolution.

Juv here is probably not the best one for this, since all his ideas seem to be agenda driven by preconceived idee fixees. Like that people are not animals, and that "a plant is not a life" (whatever that means)

But hey come one come all. Does juv propose to have a bit of data knocking about that could serve to falsify evolution, or something?

if not, as noted above, this is hardly worth further discussion.
 
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Dojima

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No thanks doj all due respect. Mo videos. Tell me what YOU know.

Alright. That video was about scientists being fired and losing grant money for proposing scientifically valid ideas. If you don't believe that this happens, you should back that up with facts.

There is no point in saying that any evidence or data has been suppressed when there is no data.

What about this is worth discussing if "creationism" has not so much as one data point on a graph? Which it does not!

Show me valid data to back creationism and i will show you that you are on your way to a Nobel.

if you cant show me any this is a waste of time.

Creationism has a lot of data. It is often the logical explanation. (Note: It has nothing to do with God, just that we explain a phenomenon as created as opposed to random, like a Pyramid.)

The bacterial flagellum is an example of an irreducibly complex system. Such irreducibly complex systems could not have arisen by a gradual step-by-step Darwinian process. That is just the logical explanation of a observed phenomenon. It has nothing to do with God.

The bacterial flagellum is necessarily composed of at least three parts -- a paddle,a rotor, and a motor -- it is irreducibly complex. Gradual evolution of the flagellum, like the cilium, therefore faces mammoth hurdles.

Some bacteria boast a marvelous swimming device, the flagellum, which has no counterpart in more complex cells. In 1973 it was discovered that some bacteria swim by rotating their flagella. So the bacterial flagellum acts as a rotary propeller -- in contrast to the cilium, which acts more like an oar.

Biochemists have begun to examine apparently simple structures like cilia and flagella, they have discovered staggering complexity, with dozens or even hundreds of precisely tailored parts. It is very likely that many of the parts we have not considered here are required for any cilium to function in a cell. As the number of required parts increases, the difficulty of gradually putting the system together skyrockets, and the likelihood of indirect scenarios plummets. Darwin looks more and more forlorn. New research on the roles of the auxiliary proteins cannot simplify the irreducibly complex system The intransigence of the problem cannot be alleviated; it will only get worse. Darwinian theory has given no explanation for the cilium or flagellum. The overwhelming complexity of the swimming systems push us to think it may never give an explanation.

Such irreducibly complex systems were ultimately the result of intelligent design.
It has nothing to do with God.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
- Charles Darwin

Darwinism is a 150 year old theory, like any other.
Some scientists will argue that "intelligent design" is not a purely naturalistic or materialistic explanation of the origin of biological information and hence is not a valid scientific explanation. Often hidden within this argument is the philosophical or theological assumption that God (or any other intelligent agent) did not play any active, direct, or discernible role in the creation of any biological system. This assumption requires that all genetic information must have arisen on a totally random and/or gradual step-by-step basis. It follows that nature must be continuous and natural history must be represented by a tree of life. Constrained by naturalism, the hypothesis of common ancestry must be accepted axiomatically and hence is not subject to scientific falsification.

Ironically, scientists are more constrained under a paradigm of naturalism than they are under a paradigm of intelligent design. Intelligent design of the universe may have included the creation of natural laws and initial conditions sufficient to allow the evolution of a single tree of life on earth. Intelligent design may also have included punctuations throughout natural history, direct acts of creation or the infusion of new genetic information, which resulted in natural discontinuities. Examples of such natural discontinuities might include the origin of life, the origin of the higher taxa (e.g. the origin of most of the major phyla in the Cambrian explosion), or the origin of irreducibly complex systems. If natural discontinuities exist, natural history would be more accurately modeled as a forest of life. The important point is that a paradigm of intelligent design can accommodate either a tree or forest of life as well as the existence of processes that either produce or prevent major evolutionary change. Unlike the paradigm of naturalism, however, intelligent design requires that scientists develop testable hypotheses to determine which model best fits the data.

The goal of science is to most accurately describe and model the Cosmos. While there may be circumstantial evidence to support either a continuous or discontinuous model of life, it is vitally important to recognize how one's starting assumptions affect one's conclusions. Beginning either with the assumption of intelligent design or philosophical agnosticism (both of which allow the Cosmos to be either continuous or discontinuous) clearly gives the scientist greater freedom of thought than exists within a purely naturalistic paradigm. Along with that freedom comes the responsibility to test what philosophical naturalists simply assume.
 
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Hespera

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gggaaaaahhhh....!!!! What is that, "expelled"?

I asked for YOUR ideas? dont play cut and paste again or we are done here.

i repeat. Creationism has not one good piece of data. if it did, it would be a world wide sensation. And dont try to pull that conspiracy stuff. juv wont stand for it either.

Out of your shopping list if you think ONE of them makes sense, tell me which one it is. I doubt that you know anything about any of those, but pick one.
 
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