• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Creationism as doctrine

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Mostly this is an invitation to explain how Creationism is tied to essential doctrine. I keep bringing up that the Nicene Creed starts off with a confession of God as Creator but other people have different ideas.

Personally I think that it is significant that the Bible starts with creation and ends with creation. Quite literally, this age began and will end as an act of God and there is no argument about this among Christians.

So in case this thread attracts some attention what I'm asking is simply this. What is the theological foundation for Creation as doctrine?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I see two ways that creation is essential to doctrine.

One is, as you said, in Genesis and Revelation. Genesis describes the creation of this age and Revelation describes the creation of the next one. And because God is the creator of this age, he is rightfully sovereign over it.

Another is our common descent from the created Adam. We're all sinners because we're all descended from a single, created man who sinned.
 
Upvote 0

verysincere

Exegete/Linguist
Jan 18, 2012
2,461
87
Haiti
✟25,646.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Another is our common descent from the created Adam. We're all sinners because we're all descended from a single, created man who sinned.

In the Creation-Evolution forum I recently started a thread asking about Adam and Eve being the only "people" on earth---but I wondered how participants would define "people" according to what the Genesis text actually says (and doesn't say.) As can be seen there, the question is more complicated than many assume---especially as we realize that the evidence from creation points to a much greater genetic diversity (in terms of numbers of allele varieties) than a YEC time frame of a few thousand years since Adam and Noah would allow.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
In the Creation-Evolution forum I recently started a thread asking about Adam and Eve being the only "people" on earth---but I wondered how participants would define "people" according to what the Genesis text actually says (and doesn't say.) As can be seen there, the question is more complicated than many assume---especially as we realize that the evidence from creation points to a much greater genetic diversity (in terms of numbers of allele varieties) than a YEC time frame of a few thousand years since Adam and Noah would allow.
I'll take a look at that. (Edit: I couldn't find the thread you mentioned. Could you be more specific about it's location? Thanks.)

I believe we're all descended from Adam because we're all descended from Noah, who himself was a descendant of Adam.

And I believe we're all descended from Eve because she's called "the mother of all the living".

I have no idea what other beings God may have created, but I believe scripture traces our own ancestry back to that single mated pair.

Where creation becomes doctrine, imo, is in places like Romans 5. Since Adam was a creation of God, God was his rightful sovereign. Thus Adam's disobedience was reckoned as sin. God's lordship over Adam, and us, is because we are his creation.

He's not sovereign over us just because he has the power to be; he's sovereign because he has that right as our creator.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
i think one of the doctrinal issues that has to be addressed is if adam brought sin into the world then he brought death... in everything and if any evolution( or adaptation) occured it began at this point
For humans I agree. But animals weren't given the tree of life, but just the green plants. So would their bodies have eventually worn out? I'm a YEC but here's one spot where my opinion diverges from fellows such as those at CMI; I'm not convinced that pre-Fall animals were spared eventual death.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure the second law of thermo dynamics existed as the world was perfect... Nothing wore out and I often wonder if anything procreated.. maybe nothing rotted either everything was eaten
I've heard others say things like that, too. But I have a hard time imagining the creation without the second law. Something blessed occurred during the exodus, as their stuff didn't wear out, and I've heard people say that perhaps the second law was locally suspended. But the second law is involved in effects such as friction and heat transfer, so I'm not sure the exodus effect was exactly that. Was there no friction or heat transfer before the Fall? I'm skeptical.
 
Upvote 0

gabrielj

Newbie
Oct 20, 2012
8
0
✟22,618.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
why would a world without friction be that tough to concieve of? i think its the restoration of the creation that is going to happen on judgement day and ive always thought of the second law as the sin law... its an easy explianation but it would make things perfect again without wear and disorder.. i mean disorder on a genetic level essentially ageing
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Such a world is tough to conceive. Without friction I can hardly walk across the ground, much less up a hill. How did Adam walk without slipping? How did the animals walk?

Breathing involves the second law, as does sunlight heating the earth.

I could be all wrong on this, as I'm no theologian. But I've got a BA in physics and the absence of the second law would have all kinds of consequences.

Regarding aging, I can imagine a pre-Fall Adam being effectively eternal because he's genetically repaired as he eats from the tree of life, even with the second law in effect. Without access to the tree of life, he began to accumulate damage, and age.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Paul does not say that at all. He makes it clear that we (gentiles) were adopted into the family.[FONT=arial,sans-serif] "[/FONT]Branches[FONT=arial, sans-serif] were broken off that I might be [/FONT]grafted in[FONT=arial, sans-serif].”[/FONT] Even Jesus refers to the gentiles as dogs and makes it clear that He was sent to the "[FONT=arial, sans-serif]the[/FONT] lost[FONT=arial,sans-serif] sheep of the house of Israel." Israel being the grandson of Abraham and Sarah. [/FONT]
Genesis 7:23 says we're all descended from Noah. And because Noah was descended from Adam, so are we.
 
Upvote 0

gabrielj

Newbie
Oct 20, 2012
8
0
✟22,618.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was reffering to what Odessa had said about lost branches.....
Earlier when I said about the second law... Perhaps I don't understand it but I believe that when God made us all of creation was absolutely eternal and perfect,aging didn it happen and things didn't wear out... After sin some thing changed in creation. that caused the break down in everything.. which I always blamed on the second law... Perhaps friction is the result.of another law just hidden beneath the second one that would still apply.... Why would God make a creation that involved.death but not just for man?
 
Upvote 0
C

Carmella Prochaska

Guest
Even if one does not accept the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, the concept of a personal, all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God is fatally flawed by the old-earth dogma.

Surely an omniscient God could devise a better process of creation than the random, wasteful, inefficient trial-and-error charade of the so-called geological ages, and certainly a loving merciful God would never be guilty of a creative process that would involve the suffering and death of multitudes of innocent animals, in the process of arriving at man millions of years later.

It should be obvious that the God of the Bible would create everything complete and good right from the start. The wastefulness and randomness and cruelty which now are so evident in the world must represent an intrusion into His creation, not a mechanism for its accomplishment. God would never do a thing like that, except in judgment of sin!
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I was reffering to what Odessa had said about lost branches.....
I see. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

Earlier when I said about the second law... Perhaps I don't understand it but I believe that when God made us all of creation was absolutely eternal and perfect,aging didn it happen and things didn't wear out... After sin some thing changed in creation. that caused the break down in everything.. which I always blamed on the second law... Perhaps friction is the result.of another law just hidden beneath the second one that would still apply.... Why would God make a creation that involved.death but not just for man?
This is one place where I part ways with many of my fellow YECs: I'm not convinced animals were ever intended to be immortal, because I see them being given only the green plants, and not the tree of life. I don't see them being carnivorous, but I do see their bodies eventually wearing out, with only ourselves, God's imagers, being immortal. And I see even our immortality being conditional, requiring periodic consumption from the tree of life to sustain ourselves (ex. Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas). But I understand that I'm arguing from silence and am in a minority among YECs regarding this.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For humans I agree. But animals weren't given the tree of life, but just the green plants. So would their bodies have eventually worn out? I'm a YEC but here's one spot where my opinion diverges from fellows such as those at CMI; I'm not convinced that pre-Fall animals were spared eventual death.

Pre-fall animals were perfect, without blemish, as all creation was, and Death entered the entire creation and began to "devour" the creation. In that sense, Death is a Satan, and has the legal right to "eat" flesh which is "Corruption".

Death is also called Abaddon, the Satan over Sheol and the one who "feeds" Sheol her "food".

Pre-fall, the entire creation was infused with the presence of the Unseen Glory, which Glory departed from the creation when the Adam became defiled, for his defilement made his dominion subject to sin and death, which was separation from perfection, and Corruption/Death began feeding on the entire creation. That is the curse the entire creation became subject to when the Adam sold it into sin and the Glory departed from the creation.

But perfection of the flesh of all creation did not mean that animals did not eat flesh nor did it mean that human beings did not eat animals.
God the Word killed an animal and made tunics to cover the shame of Adam's loss of the Glory and to cover his vanity of being, in that shameful loss and ruin of his body, as the temple for the Glory.

Abel kept sheep. He was a sheepherder. Abel's sheep gave skin for clothing and wool for garments and milk and cheese for eating, but also Lamb for eating.

Before the flood, there were clean animals for eating and for sacrificing and unclean animals which did the dirty work of cleaning the earth.
Noah took seven pair of clean and one pair of unclean, because before the flood, sacrifices were made to God and animals were eaten.

Angels ate calf and goat and drank milk and ate bread with Abraham.
Jesus ate meat after his resurrection and promised to eat Lamb/Ram with the Disciples when they all eat it together in the Kingdom of God -real Lamb or Goat kid at the real Passover celebration.

In the millennial reign, animals will be eaten and sacrificed in God's Kingdom on earth.

In the history book called the Book of Jasher, Abel kept sheep, and Cain ate sheep, which he got from Abel; and Abel got vegetables from Cain. http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/index.htm

In the fossil record of the flood, animals were caught in the act of eating animals and fish were frozen in mud, which turned to rock, with other fish half in their mouths.

It is Death which is corruption of the flesh and is the eating/devouring of the flesh which entered the creation at the fall, causing the eventual separation from the body of all souls.
It is the spiritual death of the Adam which is called the first death and which is separation from the Father of Glory which Jesus destroyed on the cross, and bought the kingdom back by that blood of Atonement for its future regeneration back, for the Glory.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Pre-fall animals were perfect, without blemish, as all creation was, and Death entered the entire creation and began to "devour" the creation. In that sense, Death is a Satan, and has the legal right to "eat" flesh which is "Corruption".

Death is also called Abaddon, the Satan over Sheol and the one who "feeds" Sheol her "food".

Pre-fall, the entire creation was infused with the presence of the Unseen Glory, which Glory departed from the creation when the Adam became defiled, for his defilement made his dominion subject to sin and death, which was separation from perfection, and Corruption/Death began feeding on the entire creation. That is the curse the entire creation became subject to when the Adam sold it into sin and the Glory departed from the creation.

But perfection of the flesh of all creation did not mean that animals did not eat flesh nor did it mean that human beings did not eat animals.
God the Word killed an animal and made tunics to cover the shame of Adam's loss of the Glory and to cover his vanity of being, in that shameful loss and ruin of his body, as the temple for the Glory.

Abel kept sheep. He was a sheepherder. Abel's sheep gave skin for clothing and wool for garments and milk and cheese for eating, but also Lamb for eating.

Before the flood, there were clean animals for eating and for sacrificing and unclean animals which did the dirty work of cleaning the earth.
Noah took seven pair of clean and one pair of unclean, because before the flood, sacrifices were made to God and animals were eaten.

Angels ate calf and goat and drank milk and ate bread with Abraham.
Jesus ate meat after his resurrection and promised to eat Lamb/Ram with the Disciples when they all eat it together in the Kingdom of God -real Lamb or Goat kid at the real Passover celebration.

In the millennial reign, animals will be eaten and sacrificed in God's Kingdom on earth.

In the history book called the Book of Jasher, Abel kept sheep, and Cain ate sheep, which he got from Abel; and Abel got vegetables from Cain. Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

In the fossil record of the flood, animals were caught in the act of eating animals and fish were frozen in mud, which turned to rock, with other fish half in their mouths.

It is Death which is corruption of the flesh and is the eating/devouring of the flesh which entered the creation at the fall, causing the eventual separation from the body of all souls.
It is the spiritual death of the Adam which is called the first death and which is separation from the Father of Glory which Jesus destroyed on the cross, and bought the kingdom back by that blood of Atonement for its future regeneration back, for the Glory.

I don't agree that any fossils are the result of the Flood, but the rest seems to be completely scripture based.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Even if one does not accept the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, the concept of a personal, all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God is fatally flawed by the old-earth dogma.

Earth was Created before Death and therefore likely before time itself.
So any attempt to examine the earth for its age of origin is destined
to fail because our examination is limited to current deterioration rates.
Likely there was no deterioration at Creation so no way to gauge time passage.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Earth was Created before Death and therefore likely before time itself.
So any attempt to examine the earth for its age of origin is destined
to fail because our examination is limited to current deterioration rates.
Likely there was no deterioration at Creation so no way to gauge time passage.

I agree that things did not decay in the garden of Eden, as sin had not corrupted the earth yet, but there was time before the earth was formed.

Dr. Herbert Spencer's categories of the knowable:
Time, force, action, space and matter.

"In the beginning( time ) God (force) created (action) the heavens (space) and the earth.(matter)"
 
Upvote 0