Creationism as doctrine

[SkyWriting]

In the Creation-Evolution forum I ...<snip>

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[SkyWriting]

I agree that things did not decay in the garden of Eden, as sin had not corrupted the earth yet, but there was time before the earth was formed.

Dr. Herbert Spencer's categories of the knowable:
Time, force, action, space and matter.

"In the beginning( time ) God (force) created (action) the heavens (space) and the earth.(matter)"

"In the beginning" is not necessarily a point in time. It could easily be a frame of reference to explain things to those who do need a time reference.

 

[Metal Minister]

"In the beginning" is not necessarily a point in time. It could easily be a frame of reference to explain things to those who do need a time reference.

While I agree that's possible, I believe its far more probable that "In the beginning" is the point at which God instituted time itself. So when it says "In the beginning" it literally means when God started His creative process. The bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That seems very straightforward to me.

 

[Aman777]

While I agree that's possible, I believe its far more probable that "In the beginning" is the point at which God instituted time itself. So when it says "In the beginning" it literally means when God started His creative process. The bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That seems very straightforward to me.

Dear Metal, In the beginning is in the beginning of the creation of heaven, which continues today. Today remains the 6th Creative Day since God is STILL creating mankind In His Image or In Christ. At the end of the present 6th Day, Jesus will return to this Planet and Christians will be given dominion or rule over EVERY other living creature and EVERY creature will become Vegetarian. Isaiah 11:7

AFTER this happens, God's work will be Finished (brought to perfection) and God will cease from ALL of His work. This means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will stop creating for His work will be done. Then, God will say it is very good and the third heaven will be brought to perfection and God will fulfill the PROPHECY of Genesis 2:2-3 which repeats that God rests from ALL of His work on the 7th Day.

Hebrews 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Metal Minister]

Dear Metal, In the beginning is in the beginning of the creation of heaven, which continues today. Today remains the 6th Creative Day since God is STILL creating mankind In His Image or In Christ. At the end of the present 6th Day, Jesus will return to this Planet and Christians will be given dominion or rule over EVERY other living creature and EVERY creature will become Vegetarian. Isaiah 11:7

AFTER this happens, God's work will be Finished (brought to perfection) and God will cease from ALL of His work. This means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will stop creating for His work will be done. Then, God will say it is very good and the third heaven will be brought to perfection and God will fulfill the PROPHECY of Genesis 2:2-3 which repeats that God rests from ALL of His work on the 7th Day.

Hebrews 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

In Love,
Aman

While that is an interesting take, I must with the love of Jesus, disagree. Remember, in Genesis 2: 1-3 it states:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

Note that this is in the past tense, meaning it has already occurred. Also, in Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

So God reaffirmed that He created in 7 days. God bless!

 

[Aman777]

While that is an interesting take, I must with the love of Jesus, disagree. Remember, in Genesis 2: 1-3 it states:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

Note that this is in the past tense,

Dear Metal, Only in English. The Hebrew tense for the word "rested", as used in this sentence is in Imperfect tense, which means "The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is incomplete". This indicates that the action continues. (Strong's Concordance)

Metal:>>meaning it has already occurred.

Not so. It would be in the "perfect" tense in Hebrew IF God had already rested. Notice also that the verse repeats that God rested from ALL of His work on the 7th Day. Jesus tells us that He and His Father continue to work up to the present time, (John 5:16) and the Holy Spirit continues to work Today.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto,(Greek-up to the present time) and I work.

IOW, Jesus is telling the Jews that the Sabbath Day is future. IF God has already rested from ALL of His work, Jesus and the Holy Spirit would also have rested from ALL of their work. This means that IF God had ceased creating, which is His work, in the past, then it would be too late to be created in Christ, today.

This is clear in the following verses, Jesus said:

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This confirms Genesis 1:26 which tells us:

26 And God said, Let US make man in our image,

In order to become a new Christian, it takes the agreement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to create a person In Christ, Spiritually.

We live today at Genesis 1:27 for the Trinity is STILL creating sinners in Christ. We will not fulfill the prophecy of Genesis 1:28-31 until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet. Isaiah 11:7

Genesis Chapter one is the entire HISTORY of the Creation of the perfect Heaven. Genesis 2:1-3 is the HISTORY of the future events which will happen AFTER God completes ALL of His work of Creation. God sees the end from the beginning and tells us the Entire History of the Creation of the Third Heaven from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3.


Metal:>>Also, in Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

So God reaffirmed that He created in 7 days. God bless!

Just as we observe Christmas and Easter, we should also observe the Sabbath Day....BUT...that is a picture of the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, the Age of Joy, or Eternity, which is future. Can you honestly say that you keep the Sabbath "Holy"? Sinlessly perfect? Of course not. Keeping the Sabbath Holy is what we will do in Heaven.

I realize that this view goes against the traditional religious view, but as you can see, it agrees with God's Holy Word. I do not mean to cause strife, but only to edify the Body of Believers in Jesus Christ. Please take my views as such, and take no offense. God bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Metal Minister]

Just as we observe Christmas and Easter, we should also observe the Sabbath Day....BUT...that is a picture of the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, the Age of Joy, or Eternity, which is future. Can you honestly say that you keep the Sabbath "Holy"? Sinlessly perfect? Of course not. Keeping the Sabbath Holy is what we will do in Heaven.

I realize that this view goes against the traditional religious view, but as you can see, it agrees with God's Holy Word. I do not mean to cause strife, but only to edify the Body of Believers in Jesus Christ. Please take my views as such, and take no offense. God bless you.

In Love,
Aman

Because I cannot reply to a good portion of your post,(it is mixed with mine in the quote) I will say we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe you may be reading into the passages that which isn't there (though intriguing). I realize you do not mean to cause strife, and I see you say what you do out of the love of Christ. God bless!

 

[Aman777]

Because I cannot reply to a good portion of your post,(it is mixed with mine in the quote) I will say we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe you may be reading into the passages that which isn't there (though intriguing). I realize you do not mean to cause strife, and I see you say what you do out of the love of Christ. God bless!

Dear Metal, Here is the post to which you can now reply:

Originally Posted by Metal Minister

While that is an interesting take, I must with the love of Jesus, disagree. Remember, in Genesis 2: 1-3 it states:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

Note that this is in the past tense,

Dear Metal, Only in English. The Hebrew tense for the word "rested", as used in this sentence is in Imperfect tense, which means "The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is incomplete". This indicates that the action continues. (Strong's Concordance)

Metal:>>meaning it has already occurred.

Not so. It would be in the "perfect" tense in Hebrew IF God had already rested. Notice also that the verse repeats that God rested from ALL of His work on the 7th Day. Jesus tells us that He and His Father continue to work up to the present time, (John 5:16) and the Holy Spirit continues to work Today.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto,(Greek-up to the present time) and I work.

IOW, Jesus is telling the Jews that the Sabbath Day is future. IF God has already rested from ALL of His work, Jesus and the Holy Spirit would also have rested from ALL of their work. This means that IF God had ceased creating, which is His work, in the past, then it would be too late to be created in Christ, today.

This is clear in the following verses, Jesus said:

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This confirms Genesis 1:26 which tells us:

26 And God said, Let US make man in our image,

In order to become a new Christian, it takes the agreement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to create a person In Christ, Spiritually.

We live today at Genesis 1:27 for the Trinity is STILL creating sinners in Christ. We will not fulfill the prophecy of Genesis 1:28-31 until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet. Isaiah 11:7

Genesis Chapter one is the entire HISTORY of the Creation of the perfect Heaven. Genesis 2:1-3 is the HISTORY of the future events which will happen AFTER God completes ALL of His work of Creation. God sees the end from the beginning and tells us the Entire History of the Creation of the Third Heaven from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3.


Metal:>>Also, in Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

So God reaffirmed that He created in 7 days. God bless!
​

Just as we observe Christmas and Easter, we should also observe the Sabbath Day....BUT...that is a picture of the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, the Age of Joy, or Eternity, which is future. Can you honestly say that you keep the Sabbath "Holy"? Sinlessly perfect? Of course not. Keeping the Sabbath Holy is what we will do in Heaven.

I realize that this view goes against the traditional religious view, but as you can see, it agrees with God's Holy Word. I do not mean to cause strife, but only to edify the Body of Believers in Jesus Christ. Please take my views as such, and take no offense. God bless you.

I hope this helps. Thanks for your reply. It is important to me that someone actually tries to explain, Scripturally. Many of my posts are ignored because some find it hard to support the traditional religious position. I certainly can understand if this view goes against your denomination's doctrine. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Genesis 2:1-3 is the HISTORY of the future events which will happen AFTER God completes all of His work of Creation.

There is no reason to believe that.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Genesis 2:1-3 is the HISTORY of the future events which will happen AFTER God completes all of His work of Creation.
​

Sky:>>There is no reason to believe that.

Dear Sky, Sure there is, since God tells us of future events which must STILL take place at the end of the 6th Day. ie. Mankind is given dominion over EVERY other living creature Gen 1:28, and EVERY living creature becomes a Vegetarian. Gen 1:29-30.

We live today at Genesis 1:27 since God is STILL creating manking, in His Image or in Christ. Until He is finished, the prophecy of Genesis 1:28-31 is FUTURE.

I have shown you this before, and you have disagreed....BUT....you have been unable to support your beliefs with Scripture. Would you like to try again?

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Genesis 2:1-3 is the HISTORY of the future events which will happen AFTER God completes all of His work of Creation.
​

Sky:>>There is no reason to believe that.

Dear Sky, Sure there is, since God tells us of future events which must STILL take place at the end of the 6th Day. ie. Mankind is given dominion over EVERY other living creature Gen 1:28, and EVERY living creature becomes a Vegetarian. Gen 1:29-30.

We do have dominion over all creatures. Dominion as in the food chain, dominion as in we decide which creatures live or die, dominion over all and any habitat, dominion over the fate of every species. Dominion in every way over every creature. There are no species that cannot be hunted and not one that has not had their environment changed by us.

And every kind has the ability to be vegetarian again as it was originally in the garden and again as they all were on the Ark.

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Sky, Sure there is, since God tells us of future events which must STILL take place at the end of the 6th Day. ie. Mankind is given dominion over EVERY other living creature Gen 1:28, and EVERY living creature becomes a Vegetarian. Gen 1:29-30.

Sky:>>We do have dominion over all creatures. Dominion as in the food chain, dominion as in we decide which creatures live or die, dominion over all and any habitat, dominion over the fate of every species. Dominion in every way over every creature. There are no species that cannot be hunted and not one that has not had their environment changed by us.

Dear Sky, Not quite. We don't rule, which is what dominion means in Hebrew, sharks, viruses, nor polar bears. Elephants and Rhinos don't recognize our dominance of them and will not recognize our dominion until AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth. Isaiah 11 tells us when this prophecy will be fulfilled. We can kill them but we do not subjugate them, nor dominate them, yet.

Sky:>>And every kind has the ability to be vegetarian again as it was originally in the garden and again as they all were on the Ark.

In order to believe that every living creature was a vegetarian in the Garden. one must "add to" what is written. One must also believe that God, who sees the future, has already said that it is very good, or perfect, when ALL of the violent history of the Earth was yet future, in the beginning. God will Not say it is good until it is perfect, and that is future to our time, at the end of the present 6th Creative Day.

You are reading God's History of His Creation of the 3rd Heaven and believing that it has already happened. This means that you also must believe that God stopped His work of Creating in the past. Jesus tells us He and His Father are still working, and we know that the Holy Spirit is STILL working Today. Today is the Day of Salvation and we are told HOW God creates a New creature in Christ. John 14 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Please explain HOW Jesus or the Holy Spirit, who are also God, could have stopped working in the beginning when it is obvious that they are STILL working Today. You cannot. The reason WHY is simple. We still live in the Day of Salvation, at Genesis 1:27 for God is STILL creating mankind in His Image.

Genesis 2:2-3 repeat that God rests from ALL of His work of Creating at the end of the 6th Creative Day. Since it takes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to create a sinner in Christ, God's rest from creating is FUTURE. If you don't believe me, then post supporting Scripture for your view.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Aman:>>Dear Sky, Sure there is, since God tells us of future events which must STILL take place at the end of the 6th Day. ie. Mankind is given dominion over EVERY other living creature Gen 1:28, and EVERY living creature becomes a Vegetarian. Gen 1:29-30.

Sky:>>We do have dominion over all creatures. Dominion as in the food chain, dominion as in we decide which creatures live or die, dominion over all and any habitat, dominion over the fate of every species. Dominion in every way over every creature. There are no species that cannot be hunted and not one that has not had their environment changed by us.

Dear Sky, Not quite. We don't rule, which is what dominion means in Hebrew, sharks, viruses, nor polar bears. Elephants and Rhinos don't recognize our dominance of them and will not recognize our dominion until AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth. Isaiah 11 tells us when this prophecy will be fulfilled. We can kill them but we do not subjugate them, nor dominate them, yet.

They don't need to "recognize" our dominance for us to have it. There are no animals that accept us as animals, because we are not.
Still, they do indeed run away while being hunted so you have no case. We dominate and subjugate them in every respect.

Sky:>>And every kind has the ability to be vegetarian again as it was originally in the garden and again as they all were on the Ark.

In order to believe that every living creature was a vegetarian in the Garden. one must "add to" what is written.

Every passage of scripture "adds to" another passage of scripture. None are the complete book or story without another to help explain. Does that make sense to you?
Only if you can show that animals ate each other. When God said the world was very good, animals not tearing each other to shred's in from of Eve would be a good example of good. Later, Adam did shed blood and kill an animal and used it's skin as clothing. Pretty gross way to treat God's creatures. But then, When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

http://www.foxnews.com/New Rules for Making Hybrid Animal-Humans

So here are activities that humans dominate
(because animals are mostly clueless about):

Writing and reading.
Mathematical calculation.
Making and playing of musical instruments.
Creating and using a calendar.
Engaging in commerce.
The practice of law.
The practice of medicine.
Pyrotechnics.
Cooking food.
Studying.
Tracking the celestial bodies.
Graphic arts.
Creation of artificial light.
Artificial heat.
Clothing.
Plumbing.
Furniture
Religion.
Storytelling.
Fire.
Musical notation.
The presentation of argument.
Capturing images.
Inducing or utilizing abstract principles.
Construction of wheels
Construction of wings
Planning for retirement.
Farming and ranching.
Any kind of Engineering.
Transportation and use of stored power.
Recording music.
Avoiding or inhibiting the spread of natural diseases.

You have failed to provide one example of animal dominance or dominion over humans.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

In order to believe that every living creature was a vegetarian in the Garden. one must "add to" what is written.
​

Sky:>>Every passage of scripture "adds to" another passage of scripture. None are the complete book or story without another to help explain. Does that make sense to you?

Dear Sky, It sure does IF you are adding scripture upon scripture and precept upon precept, but you are NOT doing this. Scripture tells us to support our views with two or more witnesses. I have seen NO witness which supports your view, from Scripture.

Sky:>>Only if you can show that animals ate each other. When God said the world was very good, animals not tearing each other to shred's in from of Eve would be a good example of good.

God will NOT say it is very good until God's work is finished (Hebrew-brought to perfection). This is future to our time. When God says, It is very good, ALL the host of heaven will be in heaven. Genesis 2:1 This is the only way a perfect God completes HIs work. Either it is perfect or God didn't do it. God has NOT yet finished ALL of His work. Want Scripture?

Sky:>>Later, Adam did shed blood and kill an animal and used it's skin as clothing.

Not so. Adam made clothing of fig leaves. The LORD made them clothing of skins.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Sky:>>Pretty gross way to treat God's creatures. But then, When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

Death came only upon humans with Adam's sin, since darkness or death was present BEFORE the first Day. We inherited Adam's ability to know good and evil along with his human intelligence. Only those humans who live to the age of accountability sin. Sin is breaking God's Law. Children below the age of accountability and the mentally ill do NOT break God's Law, and neither do animals since they do not know good and evil.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Dear Readers, What do you think? Are children doomed to Hell IF they die before they reach the age of accountability? Are the mentally ill also doomed, because they cannot understand sin? I believe that's God's Judgment and not man's. I leave it to Him.

For those who can use their Ability to know good and evil and Judge between the two, Do you choose good or evil? Jesus or the world?

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Dear Readers, What do you think? Are children doomed to Hell IF they die before they reach the age of accountability?

There is no age of accountability.
The church just made that idea up.

 

[SkyWriting]

What is the theological foundation for Creation as doctrine?

Just that the scriptures clearly state that God Created, and Jesus
was on board with that. Oh and that Jesus had "Creative" power
as well while on earth.

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Sky, Sure there is, since God tells us of future events which must STILL take place at the end of the 6th Day. ie. Mankind is given dominion over EVERY other living creature Gen 1:28, and EVERY living creature becomes a Vegetarian. Gen 1:29-30.

Sky:>>We do have dominion over all creatures.

Dear Sky, Really? How do you exert your dominion over viruses? sharks? and polar bears?

Sky>>Dominion as in the food chain, dominion as in we decide which creatures live or die,

How bout mosquitos? They are at the bottom of the food chain and we can't get rid of them? It's only a matter of time until we cause them to mutate to enormous size.

Sky:>>dominion over all and any habitat, dominion over the fate of every species.

Not really. We can kill out a species only to find that it protected us from an even more deadly species. History is filled with examples of this.

Sky:>>Dominion in every way over every creature. There are no species that cannot be hunted and not one that has not had their environment changed by us.

There's another name for that and it's greed. In our haste to accumulate money, we have ignored the world for a long time, and now, it's time to pay for our stupidity. The School of Hard Knocks has the highest tuition of any other educational system.

Sky:>>And every kind has the ability to be vegetarian again as it was originally in the garden and again as they all were on the Ark.

Chapter and verse for the Garden and the Ark, please. I don't think you can produce any which supports your view. Prove me wrong.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear Readers, What do you think? Are children doomed to Hell IF they die before they reach the age of accountability?
​

Sky:>>There is no age of accountability.
The church just made that idea up.

Dear Sky, If I understand your position, you would convict any baby of breaking one of God's Laws, thus sending them all to Hell? Man, I sure am glad it's not YOUR decision. I believe that God knows when we know that we are breaking His Law, thus reaching the age of accountability.

Until then, I am confident that a Loving God will take care of the innocent.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Sky:>>We do have dominion over all creatures.

Dear Sky, Really? How do you exert your dominion over viruses? sharks? and polar bears?

Yes, we control the fate of every species. Any could be eliminated if we chose to.
We control where they live,
what they eat,
what they breath,
what enviornment they live in,
life and death.

Most do die due to our control over their enviorment.
We have total dominion over every species in every way.
We could eliminate every living organism several times over.

Just saying "Really?" is not an opposing presentation of fact.
Ever take debate?

http://www.entsoc.org/student-debate-rules-and-procedures