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Creationism and Human Brain evolution

Tomk80

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mark kennedy said:
Two words for you Tom, Modern Syntesis, go and learn what this means.
Yes, it is the current framework. It is influenced by Darwin's ideas, it is not Darwin's idea. The modern synthesis is basically Darwin's idea of selection upon hereditary variation combined with the insights in genetics.

As I said in my post, Darwin was right about the framework of selection on heriditary variation, and was completely wrong on the way this variation arived. What's your point? Again, why bring up Darwin when all he did was lay out the basics, but when he was wrong about so many things when looking at them more specifically? Why not center upon the current theory, the modern synthesis, in stead of going of on rants about what Darwin thought when he was incorrect in so many areas? Why don't you take your own advice?
 
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Dr.GH

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I said "religious fanatics," but if the shoe fits and so on ... I can not think of a single example of mass murder at the behest of science while the idiologically motivated slaughters flood the streets with blood. Christians kill Jews and Muslims. Jews kill Muslims. Hindus kill Muslims. Muslims kill every one back. But only motivated by religious fanatics.

The classic modern example are Koolaid and Jim Jones, or David Koresh, Christians killing Christians. This really is what they do well; the Spanish Inquisition, the 30 years war, the hundred years war, and buckets of blood before those. The Puritans hung Quakers on the commons of Boston. They could not stop killing even here.
 
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Dr.GH

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mark kennedy said:
Two words for you, Modern Synthesis, go and learn what this means.
Matching your rudness (I hope) - You freaklovingtoad! I have read the seminal papers by Fisher, Haldane, Huxley, and Myer. You have not! Your creato blather has exposed nothing but ignorance. If you claim to have read any of the neo-Darwinist classics, you clearly were unable to understand them. Only your innocence of science could explain your inept efforts at biology.
 
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mark kennedy

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So no one wants to admitt to the signifigance of Darwin in the Modern Synthesis, I can't say that I am supprised.

"More than a century ago Darwin and Huxley posited that humans share recent common ancestors with the African great apes. Modern molecular studies have spectacularly confirmed this prediction and have refined the relationships, showing that the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) and bonobo (Pan paniscus or pygmy chimpanzee) are our closest living evolutionary relatives." (Nature 437, 69-87 (1 September 2005))

The first two citations are Darwin and Huxley but lets pretend that they are beside the point. Never mind that Darwin's prediction of sub-species of humans is completly false. Huxley's elaboration of various Apes is vintage naturalism and he leaves off with this interesting statement:

"If I have abstained from quoting M. Du Chaillu’s work, then, it is not because I discern any inherent improbability in his assertions respecting the man-like Apes; nor from any wish to throw suspicion on his veracity; but because, in my opinion, so long as his narrative remains in its present state of unexplained and apparently inexplicable confusion, it has no claim to original authority respecting any subject whatsoever.

It may be truth, but it is not evidence."

(Evidence As to Man’s Place in Nature, by Thomas H. Huxley, 1863)

If there is a testable prediction to be found in this list of acute observations I couldn't find it. Still, 'Modern molecular studies have spectacularly confirmed this prediction', this is a flawed philosophical premise not a testable hypothesis. Darwinism is not a scientific theory, it classic victorian naturalism complete with naturalistic assumptions.

A well ordered discussion of the differences between the human brain and the chimpanzee at the top of the thread remains ignored. I usually know when I have proven my point, substantive discussion descends to the level of personal remarks. My challenge again to anyone doubting the relevance of Darwin's sole contribution to modern biology can be boiled down to a single literary term, 'selection'. The only thing in his elaborate antithesis of special creation remotely simular to a scientific model is his diagram of the tree of life (aka single common ancestory).

"Darwin founded a new branch of life science, evolutionary biology. Four of his contributions to evolutionary biology are especially important, as they held considerable sway beyond that discipline. The first is the non-constancy of species, or the modern conception of evolution itself. The second is the notion of branching evolution, implying the common descent of all species of living things on earth from a single unique origin. Up until 1859, all evolutionary proposals, such as that of naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, instead endorsed linear evolution, a teleological march toward greater perfection that had been in vogue since Aristotle's concept of Scala Naturae, the chain of being. Darwin further noted that evolution must be gradual, with no major breaks or discontinuities. Finally, he reasoned that the mechanism of evolution was natural selection."

Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought

Gradual? No major breaks or discontinuities? Let's just ignore the fact that the fossil record demonstrates long periods of stasis and sudden changes at all levels of taxa. Now contrast this proposition of the non-continuity of species with the exacting nature of genuine scientific prediction. Mendel predicted both the elementum (we now know to be genes) and crossing over in a process we now know as recombination. This was predicted half a century before anyone had even seen a chromosome and has been confirmed in every conceivable way.

"The rediscovery of Mendel's laws of heredity in the opening weeks of the 20th century sparked a scientific quest to understand the nature and content of genetic information that has propelled biology for the last hundred years. The scientific progress made falls naturally into four main phases, corresponding roughly to the four quarters of the century. The first established the cellular basis of heredity: the chromosomes. The second defined the molecular basis of heredity: the DNA double helix. The third unlocked the informational basis of heredity, with the discovery of the biological mechanism by which cells read the information contained in genes and with the invention of the recombinant DNA technologies of cloning and sequencing by which scientists can do the same."

Initial sequencing and analysis of the human genome

Like I said, go and learn what this means, The Modern Synthesis of Genetics and Evolution

"...his narrative remains in its present state of unexplained and apparently inexplicable confusion, it has no claim to original authority respecting any subject whatsoever." (Huxley, The Place of Man in Nature)

I would say the same for his prediction of apes and human beings having a common ancestor.

One of the problems with the evolutionary expansion of the human brain from that of an ape is the size, weight and complexity. The human brian would have had to triple in size, starting 2 1/2 million years ago and ending 200 to 400 thousand years ago. The brain weight would have had to grow by 250% while the body only grows by 20%. The average brain weight would have to go from 400-450g, 2 1/2 MY ago to 1350–1450 g 0.2–0.4 MY.

"It is generally believed that the brain expansion set the stage for the emergence of human language and other high-order cognitive functions and that it was caused by adaptive selection, yet the genetic basis of the expansion remains elusive."

(Evolution of the Human ASPM Gene, a Major Determinant of Brain Size, Genetics, Vol. 165, 2063-2070, December 2003)

In case anyone was wondering what the topic of the thread is, it was started with three important questions:

"I bring you yet another renunciation of the much celebrated, never demonstrated, often pontificated, single common ancestor model...but seriously folks. Let us ponder the the most signifigant questions confronting the single common ancestor model in our day. What makes us human? (Nature 437, 69-87 ) What is the genetic basis for the threefold expansion of the human brain in 2 1/2 million years?(Genetics, Vol. 165, 2063-2070) What is the genetic and evolutionary background of phenotypic traits that set humans apart from our closest evolutionary relatives, the chimpanzees?(Genome Research 14:1462-1473)"

The sources, cited and linked remain untouched which tells me that the primary points are irrefutable or too technical for the open forum.
 
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mark kennedy

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Pete Harcoff said:
What's this unending obsession creationists have with Darwin? Darwin was right about some stuff, wrong about other stuff.

Newton was wrong about the idea that gravity acts instantaneously over distances. Does this everything to do with gravity is false?

Newton also came up with the principles of motion that predicted the course of a comet. He predicted that light was composed of 7 colors that could be refracted with the experimentum crucis being the essential meticulas experiment. He developed calculas to measure the parabolic path of the comet independant of the scientific community at large. Newton contributed a great deal more then a single theory, his first philosophy of science was Principia. How anyone could confuse or compare Darwin's victorian prose is a to this scientific genius is a mystery to me.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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mark kennedy said:
Newton also came up with the principles of motion that predicted the course of a comet. He predicted that light was composed of 7 colors that could be refracted with the experimentum crucis being the essential meticulas experiment. He developed calculas to measure the parabolic path of the comet independant of the scientific community at large. Newton contributed a great deal more then a single theory, his first philosophy of science was Principia. How anyone could confuse or compare Darwin's victorian prose is a to this scientific genius is a mystery to me.

My point, which you have so elegantly missed, was that not every single scientist in the history of science was correct about everything. But that doesn't mean they were also wrong about everything. Creationists seem to like to point to Darwin and say, "Look, he got blah wrong!" as though it somehow invalidates everything to do with what he wrote or evolution in general.
 
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AngelusTenebrae

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Actually, it's quite ironic that Newton thought all the things he was doing in science was proving or showing that God existed, but he was doing quite the opposite, at least in the eyes of some other scientists. And Newton didn't invent Calculus by himself; Leibniz did it independently at about the same time. By the way, I've been told that Newton was a nasty guy. He got into a lot of arguments with Leibniz.
 
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Valkhorn

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Newton also came up with the principles of motion that predicted the course of a comet. He predicted that light was composed of 7 colors that could be refracted with the experimentum crucis being the essential meticulas experiment. He developed calculas to measure the parabolic path of the comet independant of the scientific community at large. Newton contributed a great deal more then a single theory, his first philosophy of science was Principia. How anyone could confuse or compare Darwin's victorian prose is a to this scientific genius is a mystery to me.

Actually Newton was wrong about his three laws. They do not apply on the quantum level. Einstien showed he was wrong.

Again, Mark, you often try to mean well but your creationist bias really shines through.
 
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mark kennedy

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AngelusTenebrae said:
Actually, it's quite ironic that Newton thought all the things he was doing in science was proving or showing that God existed, but he was doing quite the opposite, at least in the eyes of some other scientists. And Newton didn't invent Calculus by himself; Leibniz did it independently at about the same time. By the way, I've been told that Newton was a nasty guy. He got into a lot of arguments with Leibniz.

Newton has accused Leibniz of stealing his work on calculas. Leibniz had been given some of the material on Newton's work through Oldenburg and Collins. Leibniz only contribution was that the symbols were better, Newton even said that in Principia. Leibniz also corrosponded with Newton on some of the problems he was encountering. Newton helped him the first time but when Leibniz asked again Newton told him he was too busy. Generally, it is believed that they both developed calculas simulataniously. Personally, I believe that Leibniz relied on Newton for at least part of his work but Newton developed his calculas independant of Leibniz.

Newton did have a nasty reputation, London society gave him the nickname 'the ape of Newton'. He had a bizzar theology, he was an arian in that he believed Jesus Christ was created, he may well have believed himself the be the scientific equivalant. He was obsesed with alchemy and chair of the London Rosicrucian society.

"Newton maintained an obsessive belief in his own uniqueness: he was convinced there could be only one Christ-like interperter of divine knowledge in the world at any one time, and he never doubted that he was the chosen one."
(Isaac Newton, The Last Sorcerer, Michael White)

Newton's religious inclinations where occultic and quasi-christian. He tried to predict an apocolyptic timeline based on the measurements of the Temple of Solomon. He had to abandon his concept of ether in favor of a mechanistic view of gravity. In his religious beliefs he was confused at best, scientists tend to be terrible at theology and vice versa.
 
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AngelusTenebrae

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Well, if Newton wrote Principia, and took credit for it, claiming that Leibniz relied on his ideas, and they were in competition, then of course Newton could stretch the truth to make himself look better. Well, that's my view on it, but perhaps someone can confirm that for me.
 
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mark kennedy

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serventofthelord said:
evolutionist believe that the human brain evolved from a rock. i dont know how they can believe this. i believe the lord created our brain.

What they believe is that it evolved from an apes brain over about a two million year period. What I believe is that God created apes and human beings seperatly and that there are limits to how much human beings and apes can actually change over time.
 
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rosa123

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mark kennedy said:
What they believe is that it evolved from an apes brain over about a two million year period. What I believe is that God created apes and human beings seperatly and that there are limits to how much human beings and apes can actually change over time.


You believe. Scientists deduce.
 
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Tomk80

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mark kennedy said:
Like I said, go and learn what this means, The Modern Synthesis of Genetics and Evolution
I know what it means Mark. What you don't seem to understand is that yes, Darwin had a significant influence on modern thinking regarding evolution/biology, but that there is a significant difference between having influence on and being correct. Again, some ideas of Darwin were correct, others were incorrect. In this debate, you should focus on current ideas regarding evolution, not on past ones. If Darwin was incorrect, or had ideas different from current ideas, so be it. He was influential, he was not a prophet. If you want to discuss the current theory of evolution, you can't come around with incorrect ideas of someone living 150 years ago like they are still held today and expect to be taken seriously. Even worse, nobody cares whose ideas they were in the first place, except in a historical context. If they are correct, this is shown by their support in the present, not in the past.
 
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mark kennedy

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Tomk80 said:
I know what it means Mark. What you don't seem to understand is that yes, Darwin had a significant influence on modern thinking regarding evolution/biology, but that there is a significant difference between having influence on and being correct. Again, some ideas of Darwin were correct, others were incorrect. In this debate, you should focus on current ideas regarding evolution, not on past ones. If Darwin was incorrect, or had ideas different from current ideas, so be it. He was influential, he was not a prophet. If you want to discuss the current theory of evolution, you can't come around with incorrect ideas of someone living 150 years ago like they are still held today and expect to be taken seriously. Even worse, nobody cares whose ideas they were in the first place, except in a historical context. If they are correct, this is shown by their support in the present, not in the past.

The question came up whether or not single common ancestory predicted a sub-species of human beings. Obviously, scientists have abandoned this concept since there is no real basis for it. Darwin may not have been the first to propose the non-continuity of species but he was the one who did the most in the 19th century to popularize it. The larger problem is with gradualism itself as it has developed as a result of the modern synthesis. It actually came in two waves in the 30s and the 60s and the focus was generally on reconciling Darwinism with Mendelian genetics.

My point was that Darwin was cited in a scientific paper that attributed a prediction that had been confirmed. I'm more interested in the development of the human brain but for whatever reason the thread has been off-topic from the begining. Making a judgement about somekind of an historical transition isn't really a prediction anyway, its an ad hoc conclusion.
 
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