Creation

[Job 33:6]

Just follow the story here:

Yes. The Bible is for all of mankind. But it's still not written to you. And it's the second part that matters in Biblical interpretation.

I can write a letter that says "there is water in the trunk" and I can give it to my friend while we work on fixing the trunk of my car.

And I could say "hm, this would be great for instructions for all of mankind".

But if some random person shows up 3,000 years in the future, and let's say they speak a different language, and let's say they live in a forest and they don't use cars anymore (let's say they have space ships that don't have trunks). And future person A says to future person B "oh wow this must be a letter about forestry because there is water in tree trunks here in the forest".

And then person B says to person A, "no, this letter isn't even written in your language, you're not reading it in context, it's more likely talking about a car trunk".

And then person A says "well, it says that this instruction manual is for all of humanity when you translate it into our language, and that includes me. I live in the future, and since it's for me, it must be speaking in my context. I live in a forest, so it must be saying that there is water in the tree trunks!"

And then person B says, " You don't understand, you're not reading it in its original context about a mechanic fixing his car trunk that has water in it".

And then person A says "yea but, God is the ultimate author, so there is no difference if the letter was written to car mechanics 3,000 years ago in a different context, or if it's written to me living in a forest today, therefore it's ok to say that it's talking about forestry!"

And we go round and round.

Just because something may be for everyone, doesn't mean that it was written to you. And it's not in your context, so you can't just say "well, it's for me, so that gives me the right to read it in my context".

That's not how you read the Bible, that's just cultural exploitation.

This is also known as the biblical hermeneutic of "narcigesis". Not exegesis or eisigesis, but narcigesis. Look closely at how many times I used "me", "I", "my", "includes me", "to me", "for me", etc.

Do you see it @David Lamb.

It's when you start putting yourself before Moses, and the text in your context of the future is more important than the context of Moses.

And it's not even to say that you are equals to Moses, if Moses is talking about a car trunk, and you're talking about a tree trunk, and a letter simply says that there is water in the trunk,

You can't both be right. The text doesn't work that way. There is no such thing, it's not logical to even anticipate that a text would apply to any and all contexts of all time. That doesn't make any sense at all.

And so you either read it in its original context, or you're going to change the meaning of the text and you're going to distort the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

@David Lamb

Here is another example.

David and I are sitting in my living room and we are watching football. And I live in America, so when I talk about football, I'm talking about Tom Brady and the Patriots and field goals and touchdowns and linebackers etc.

And I write a letter that says "football is the greatest sport".

And then let's say some person in the UK picks up that paper. And says, wow, this person must have really loved football (but they're actually talking about soccer).

You see. You can't both be right. It's either touchdowns and field goals and linebackers, or it's soccer with people kicking a ball and...I don't watch soccer so I can't say a lot about it.

The point is, context matters. And words can mean different things based on context.

So, to say "well God said that this is for all humanity, I am part of humanity and I live in the UK, therefore it's talking about soccer" it just isn't a sufficient response. It doesn't make any sense.

It's not about you. It's not written to you. It's not about your context. It's not about you. It's not even written in your language, you can't even read it without 50 expert translators working it into your language.

It's for you, that's true. But it's not to you.

It's written to the Israelites, so when you read it, you have to read it as if you are an Israelite.

And only then can you begin to understand what it means for everyone.

You have to start with the original context, and then you can apply it to your future life today. You don't want to start with your future context and then extrapolate from there.

Or even worse, you don't want to read it in your future context, and then read that backwards into the Bible.

It would be like the person going around and telling the world that the letter is about soccer, even though the original author and audience were talking about American football with touchdowns and linebackers. Because you would essentially be changing the text and manipulating it and speaking falsely about it. Although it's innocent, and it's not intentional, that's what happens everyday in the church.

You can't say that, well. God wrote the Bible for all of humanity, and therefore it's okay for me to think that it's talking about soccer because I live in the UK and that's what football is to me.

Because the reality is, even though the Bible is indeed for all of humanity, it still was not written to you, and it was never about soccer, because we all know that American football with linebackers and quarterbacks and field goals is the true greatest sport of the world. Not soccer.

 

[davetaff]

Thanks Dave. I know we have been here before, but in my view, it is necessary to be careful in writing things such as, " I also believe the first and last Adam would be created in the same way," because when Scripture talks about the last Adam, it is referring to Christ, so it seems as if you are saying that Christ is a created Being. I know from one of your previous replies that you don't believe He was created.

Hi David
Thank you for your reply Christ was not created he was from the beginning of creation to the end but his body the multitude of believers were created by him and his bride the church they would be created after the same pattern as Israel the son of God.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[davetaff]

Hi Job 33 6
Thank you for your post not that I could understand what it had to do with the thread you seam to be attacking a fellow member instead of sticking to the thread. If you have something to contribute to the thread please do I look forward to your contributions.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi Job 33 6
Thank you for your post not that I could understand what it had to do with the thread you seam to be attacking a fellow member instead of sticking to the thread. If you have something to contribute to the thread please do I look forward to your contributions.

Love and Peace
Dave

I'm pointing out that, especially when it comes to Genesis, it has to be read in its original context.

You can't say that it's about water in a tree trunk if it's actually about water in a car trunk. This is central to the entire subject.

And nobody will be able to progress in any discussion on this topic if they can't get past this fundamental concept.

And it's the same with Peter.
a thousand years is as one day

This is all about context.

You have you and David, reading the exact same words, but seeing completely different things. And that's an issue of hermeneutics. It's an issue of context.

Like the word "football". To some people it means American football with linebackers and quarterbacks. To other people, it's soccer and kicking a ball around.

1 word. Two people seeing completely different things.

And that is only resolved, this is the only way to solve it, the resolution is to understand the context of the original audience and authors. Because that is who the text was originally written by, and originally written to.

"Football is the best sport".

If the context is in the United States, then you're talking about linebackers and quarterbacks.

If the context is out of the United Kingdom, then you're talking about something like soccer and kicking a ball around.

You have to know about the original author and audience to determine which interpretation is the correct one.

And you can't just say "well God wrote the Bible for all of mankind, therefore both are true". There cannot be multiple truths. There is only 1 truth. The text means one thing, it doesn't mean an infinite number of different things.

You can't both be right, the text can't mean a day is a thousand years and a day is only 24 hours, it's only one or the other.

So you have to figure out which of the two is correct. Or if there's a third option out there.

And that starts by understanding the text in its original context.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm pointing out that, especially when it comes to Genesis, it has to be read in its original context.

You can't say that it's about water in a tree trunk if it's actually about water in a car trunk. This is central to the entire subject.

And nobody will be able to progress in any discussion on this topic if they can't get past this fundamental concept.

And it's the same with Peter.
a thousand years is as one day

This is all about context.

You have you and David, reading the exact same words, but seeing completely different things. And that's an issue of hermeneutics. It's an issue of context.

Like the word "football". To some people it means American football with linebackers and quarterbacks. To other people, it's soccer and kicking a ball around.

1 word. Two people seeing completely different things.

And that is only resolved, this is the only way to solve it, the resolution is to understand the context of the original audience and authors. Because that is who the text was originally written by, and originally written to.

"Football is the best sport".

If the context is in the United States, then you're talking about linebackers and quarterbacks.

If the context is out of the United Kingdom, then you're talking about something like soccer and kicking a ball around.

You have to know about the original author and audience to determine which interpretation is the correct one.

And you can't just say "well God wrote the Bible for all of mankind, therefore both are true". There cannot be multiple truths. There is only 1 truth. The text means one thing, it doesn't mean an infinite number of different things.

You can't both be right, the text can't mean a day is a thousand years and a day is only 24 hours, it's only one or the other.

So you have to figure out which of the two is correct. Or if there's a third option out there.

And that starts by understanding the text in its original context.

And @David Lamb I hope that you can see this as well.

If you think that a day is 24 hours, and another person thinks that a day is 1,000 years, the only way to identify which answer is correct, is to look at the original context that it was written in to know what the original author intended to write to his original audience.

That's how that works.

And we can't just say "well God wrote the Bible for all of mankind, therefore, it doesn't matter what the original audience or authors may have thought".

It would be like saying, the letter that says "football is the greatest sport" was written for all of mankind, therefore it doesn't matter if it was original written in America about NFL quarterbacks and linebackers, or if it's written in the UK about soccer.

Understanding the original context is the only way to differentiate between different interpretations based on the exact same text.

 

[davetaff]

Hi Job 33 6
Thank you for your reply so what is the context no long words pleas I don't have the education for it I have this strange idea that God loves us and wants us know who he is and don't want us to university for 10 years to learn ancient languages to understand what he had to say.
When he came into the world he did not go to the well educated the Priest's and scribes he went to ordenary people poor fisher men we don't need a good education to understand God's word we need the HolySpirit

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi Job 33 6
Thank you for your reply so what is the context no long words pleas I don't have the education for it I have this strange idea that God loves us and wants us know who he is and don't want us to university for 10 years to learn ancient languages to understand what he had to say.
When he came into the world he did not go to the well educated the Priest's and scribes he went to ordenary people poor fisher men we don't need a good education to understand God's word we need the HolySpirit

Love and Peace
Dave

To read the Bible in context is just to say that, when you read it, you have to account for the language and culture of the original audience and authors.

So for example, if I said "football is the greatest sport". In order to know what I actually mean, if I'm talking about American football, with linebackers and quarterbacks, or if I am talking about soccer where people kick a ball around, you need to know my culture. You need to know something about the original author and audience of the letter, to know what that letter is saying.

And if you don't know if the author is in the US or in the UK, then you won't know what that letter means, "football is the greatest sport". You won't know the meaning of these words without first understanding the original author and recipients of that letter.

You need to know what they meant in their original setting, culture, time, place etc. or you won't know what the text is saying. You won't know which interpretation is correct, American football (linebackers and quarterbacks) or European football (soccer).

And that's why, even though the Bible is for all of humanity for all time, it's still crucial to know about the perspectives and positions of the ancient Israelites. Because originally, the Bible was written to the Israelites a long time ago. It's written to them. It's not written to us today.

The Bible is for us. It's for everyone, forever. But it's still written to a specific audience at a specific place and time in history.

 

[David Lamb]

Just follow the story here:

Yes. The Bible is for all of mankind. But it's still not written to you. And it's the second part that matters in Biblical interpretation.

I can write a letter that says "there is water in the trunk" and I can give it to my friend while we work on fixing the trunk of my car.

And I could say "hm, this would be great for instructions for all of mankind".

But if some random person shows up 3,000 years in the future, and let's say they speak a different language, and let's say they live in a forest and they don't use cars anymore (let's say they have space ships that don't have trunks). And future person A says to future person B "oh wow this must be a letter about forestry because there is water in tree trunks here in the forest".

And then person B says to person A, "no, this letter isn't even written in your language, you're not reading it in context, it's more likely talking about a car trunk".

And then person A says "well, it says that this instruction manual is for all of humanity when you translate it into our language, and that includes me. I live in the future, and since it's for me, it must be speaking in my context. I live in a forest, so it must be saying that there is water in the tree trunks!"

And then person B says, " You don't understand, you're not reading it in its original context about a mechanic fixing his car trunk that has water in it".

And then person A says "yea but, God is the ultimate author, so there is no difference if the letter was written to car mechanics 3,000 years ago in a different context, or if it's written to me living in a forest today, therefore it's ok to say that it's talking about forestry!"

And we go round and round.

Just because something may be for everyone, doesn't mean that it was written to you. And it's not in your context, so you can't just say "well, it's for me, so that gives me the right to read it in my context".

That's not how you read the Bible, that's just cultural exploitation.

I do agree that we need to take the bible in context, in the sense that without doing so, we could end up (for example) believing that Jesus taught us to hate our family members:

“"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” (Lu 14:26 NKJV)

When we know that in the context in which Jesus said those words,

Hi David
Thank you for your reply Christ was not created he was from the beginning of creation to the end but his body the multitude of believers were created by him and his bride the church they would be created after the same pattern as Israel the son of God.

Love and Peace
Dave

Yes, that is similar to what you answered before on this matter, but the multitude of believers, His bride, the church, is never referred to as the last Adam, is it?

 

[Job 33:6]

I do agree that we need to take the bible in context, in the sense that without doing so, we could end up (for example) believing that Jesus taught us to hate our family members:

“"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” (Lu 14:26 NKJV)

Sure. That's a good example.

When we know that in the context in which Jesus said those words,

Yes, that is similar to what you answered before on this matter, but the multitude of believers, His bride, the church, is never referred to as the last Adam, is it?

I'm speaking more toward the topic of, a day to the Lord is 1000 years, and this whole thing.

When we think about a "day" or "yom", we have to see it as they did.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, with the Lord a thousand years is as one day, and notice it's as, or like, a thousand years; Peter doesn't say it is a thousand years:

“But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8 NKJV)

But for whom did God cause the bible to be written? For mankind. So unless the context tells us otherwise, "day" means "day", not a thousand years. In Genesis 1, we have that repeated phrase, "And the evening and the morning were the .... th day. " A thousand years have three hundred and sixty five thousand evenings and mornings. Also, the six days of creation followed by the seventh day on which God rested are the pattern for the Jewish sabbath, which occurs once per week, not once every seven thousand years!

Here is the post I'm referring to. We see this back and forth over a day being 1,000 years or if it actually just means 24 hours days.

So the question becomes, to determine the difference we have to think about how the original Israelites thought of this 7-day creation. And I could just as easily point this question toward @davetaff as well.

A good place to start is to ask, in the old testament, where else do we see 7-day events occuring? Or events that occur in 7 stages or 7 years, or 7 months etc.

And when we investigate this question, the answer is right there before us.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here is the post I'm referring to. We see this back and forth over a day being 1,000 years or if it actually just means 24 hours days.

So the question becomes, to determine the difference we have to think about how the original Israelites thought of this 7-day creation. And I could just as easily point this question toward @davetaff as well.

A good place to start is to ask, in the old testament, where else do we see 7-day events occuring? Or events that occur in 7 stages or 7 years, or 7 months etc.

And when we investigate this question, the answer is right there before us.

Or @davetaff and @David Lamb, on the 7th day, God rests. Where else does God rest in the OT, and what does He rest on? Genesis isn't the only place that the OT talks about God resting. Not people resting, but God resting. Where does God rest in the Bible?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions? You can use Google or chatgpt for help.

Understanding day 7, in the Bible and how the ancient Israelites thought of God's rest, can inform us of the meaning of "yom".

 

[davetaff]

I do agree that we need to take the bible in context, in the sense that without doing so, we could end up (for example) believing that Jesus taught us to hate our family members:

“"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” (Lu 14:26 NKJV)

When we know that in the context in which Jesus said those words,

Yes, that is similar to what you answered before on this matter, but the multitude of believers, His bride, the church, is never referred to as the last Adam, is it?

Hi David you said

Yes, that is similar to what you answered before on this matter, but the multitude of believers, His bride, the church, is never referred to as the last Adam, is it?

I have never said the church is the last Adam the church is his bride its not the multitude of believers it's those who have been chosen for example the prophets and apostles

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen

Everyone keeps on about context but never explains what it means I'm beginning to think its a cope out.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Job 33:6]

@Aaron112 do you know the answer?

the 7th day, God rests. Where else does God rest in the OT, and what does He rest on? Genesis isn't the only place that the OT talks about God resting. Not people resting, but God resting. Where does God rest in the Bible? Or what does he rest on? In the Bible.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions? You can use Google or chatgpt for help.

Understanding day 7, in the Bible and how the ancient Israelites thought of God's rest, can inform us of the meaning of "yom".

 

[David Lamb]

Sure. That's a good example.

I'm speaking more toward the topic of, a day to the Lord is 1000 years, and this whole thing.

When we think about a "day" or "yom", we have to see it as they did.

But Peter didn't write, "a day to the Lord is 1000 years," but a day with the Lord is as a thousand years." ("as" in the sense of "like".)

 

[Job 33:6]

But Peter didn't write, "a day to the Lord is 1000 years," but a day with the Lord is as a thousand years." ("as" in the sense of "like".)

Sure. So, as noted above, if we want to know the meaning of "Yom", we have to look into how the Israelites thought about that term.

So for example, on the 7th day, God rests. Where else does God rest in the Bible? I'm not talking about people resting, but God in particular, where else does God rest in the Bible, and what does he rest on?

These questions will inform you about the seventh day to give you an idea of what this day means, and what the word "yom" means.

 

[Aaron112]

For six days, in the wilderness, the Israelites were to pick up their food,
and on the 6th day to pick up twice as much or enough for 6th day and for shabbat .
For six days, when they woke up, manna was there to be picked up off the ground as YHVH Instructed.
On the 7th day, Shabbat, there was no manna on the ground.

 

[Job 33:6]

For six days, in the wilderness, the Israelites were to pick up their food,
and on the 6th day to pick up twice as much or enough for 6th day and for shabbat .
For six days, when they woke up, manna was there to be picked up off the ground as YHVH Instructed.
On the 7th day, Shabbat, there was no manna on the ground.

Sure. But where else does God rest in the Bible? And when God does rest, what does he rest on? God rests in several passages in the old testament. So, when God rests, where is He resting, and what does He rest on?

 

[davetaff]

Hi

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

So Gods rest is a future event into which we can enter in Gods sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign the 7th day of this creation so lets make sure we can enter Gods rest.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

So Gods rest is a future event into which we can enter in Gods sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign the 7th day of this creation so lets make sure we can enter Gods rest.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hebrews 4:4 says that God did rest. Ok. But specifically, where does the bible say that God rested, and on what?