Creation vs. Evolution

Yinlowang

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Lucaspa, he said “If he provided a testable proof or postulate for everything in the Bible, what would be left to accept on faith?” I read that as faith without evidence/reason.

I agree with the rest of your post I guess, but I do not think that is the kind of faith he is talking about. My apologies if that is not what he was saying.
 
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Melchior

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Today at 03:56 AM gentu said this in Post #39



I think this question can be answered in a relativistic point of view. If everything in the Universe is spinning from the get-go, who can tell if the Universe is spinning? From anyone's point of view in this Universe where everything's spinning, it looks as if it's perfectly still! That means that any spinning of planets and solar systems has to come from some other effect. The Universe can't break into spinning eddies of solar systems because this would require friction to be applied from a vacuum to be the explanation.
You started off right. We can't tell if the universe itself is spinning because that spin doesn't have any effect on things within the universe itself. But after that, just about everything in the universe spins. Why? Well let me answer that for you.

Lets start with a forming galaxy. It's a huge ball of mostly hydrogen gas slowly collapsing in on its self. This ball of gas has a very slow spin to it already due to the uneven gravitational effects of other forming galaxies around it. As the ball of gas condenses, it pulls in on itself causing the spin to increase just as an ice-skater spins faster when she pulls her arms in. The tighter you pull in, the faster you spin.

The same thing happens as a solar system forms. Gravitational unevenness causes the dust to spin, and as it coalesces the body begins to spin. Because the initial gravitational unevenness was the same for all the bodies in the system, you would expect the spin of all the bodies to be in the same direction, and indeed at the beginning they all are.

But two things happen within the system that can disrupt this. The first is the gravitational effects of bodies within the system on each other. I am not going to go into details about tidal bulges (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/tides.html), but accept that the tugging of gravity between objects will slow down the spinning of those objects. Eventually, the bodies will become tidally locked, and will spin in a 1:1 ratio with the orbital period to go around the body (like our moon around earth and mercury around the sun).

The second is a change in angular momentum due to a collision with another body. This can cause the bodies to gain momentum in a different direction and cause the body spin to slow down, speed up, or even start to spin in a different direction! This is common and even expected to happen in the early formation of a solar system.
 
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lucaspa

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Today at 09:29 AM Yinlowang said this in Post #41

Lucaspa, he said “If he provided a testable proof or postulate for everything in the Bible, what would be left to accept on faith?” I read that as faith without evidence/reason.

I agree with the rest of your post I guess, but I do not think that is the kind of faith he is talking about. My apologies if that is not what he was saying.

He said: "My simple question (as my heading states) is as follows:

Everyone pretend that you believe in my God (if you don't already), who saves by faith.  If he provided a testable proof or postulate for everything in the Bible, what would be left to accept on faith? "

The poster is saying that, if God had provided objective, intersubjective evidence ("testable proof") then it wouldn't be faith.

And that is correct, isn't it?  After all, since there is objective, intersubjective evidence about scientific theories, we say there is not faith.

He said nothing about faith being without evidence/reason.  Just that it lacks the specific subset of evidence that science limits itself to: objective and intersubjective ("testable proof").

As I said, I have evidence and reason for my faith in democracy as a good way to pick leaders. What I don't have is scientific proof.
 
 
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gentu

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Today at 03:35 PM Melchior said this in Post #42

You started off right. We can't tell if the universe itself is spinning because that spin doesn't have any effect on things within the universe itself. But after that, just about everything in the universe spins. Why? Well let me answer that for you.



I don't see what you're disagreeing with. :)

I realize that there is spin to most objects in the Universe. Thanks for clarifying the mechanisms for this, but I was only saying that the initial spin of the Universe as a whole would have no effect on the spinning of individual objects, and therefore the spins that are witnessed today are due to effects from mechanisms like those you mentioned.

Edit: Sorry for not being clear in my first post in this thread, I just reread it and noticed that it is a little ambiguous, but what you said is what I was driving at.
 
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