Creation stands

[Dracil]

*snickers*

AiG is a guy? Makes one wonder how much research has actually been put in...

 

[Philosoft]

I find this funny and amusing. I posted to get feedback, as far as right now I have not heard one credible argument.

Then you might wish to consult the dictionary for the common meaning of "credible."

I admit I am probally not on the same level as many of you in this forum and I respect the many years that people have dug in and learned.

This is a lie. If you actually respected us, you would not insult us twice - once by claiming Hovind's work amounts to science and again by handwaving at our reasoned rebuttals.

I did not expect any people on this forum to accept Hovinds view, but all I get is to be directed to websites that I have heard Hovinds rebuttal too. I was wanting to hear what you thought about what he said.

Hovind is a speck on the map of significance, a substanceless diversion. We have neither the time nor the inclination to cram all the legitimate science that unequivocally refutes his twaddle into a 250-word post easily digestible by the lay-reader.

So I see no relevance in this post what so ever. I am not closing my eyes or plugging my ears, I just wanted some scientific review of what you thought. Why is Hovinds view incorrect?

Because it is. You can either take what we've given you and build upon that or continue to wallow in delusion. No one is going to give you a rehash of the dissertation you ask for. It has been done.

Also, Don't use AIG thing, Both men have respect for each other, they just agree on some minor things. Just because their (arguments) not foolproof, they are still justified arguments.

AIG's list of arguments creationists should not use is a veritable word-for-word repeat of everything Hovind dogmatically and uncritically offers in opposition to evolution.

I have personally talked to AIG, you bringing up does not discredit Hovind and statements such as "even AIG discredits Hovind" are incorrect.

You are lying again.

 

[Josh1]

This is weird, ask for an argument and get a bunch of laughable clowns (oops was that an insult). Philosoft, you can go ahead and call me a liar but please feel free to contact Ken Ham (for he is one that I talked to) and ask him. I have went to many of his seminars and conversed with him multiple times. So you my friend (metaphorically speaking of course) are the one that is lying. Everyone of you evos canhave the last word, LOL.




Josh

 

[Dracil]

Is it me, or does that last post sound like Ark Guy?

Edit: Urk, what's with my stuff becoming bolded?

 

[Meatros]

This is weird, ask for an argument and get a bunch of laughable clowns (oops was that an insult). Philosoft, you can go ahead and call me a liar but please feel free to contact Ken Ham (for he is one that I talked to) and ask him. I have went to many of his seminars and conversed with him multiple times. So you my friend (metaphorically speaking of course) are the one that is lying. Everyone of you evos canhave the last word, LOL.




Josh

Apparently you have trouble admitting when you made a, albeit simple, mistake.

You said:

I have personally talked to AIG, you bringing up does not discredit Hovind and statements such as "even AIG discredits Hovind" are incorrect.

You did not say you talked to Ken Ham. When people then accuse you of lieing, because AiG is not a person, you suddenly try to switch what you originally said, instead of just admitting that you made a simple mistake.

That, my friend, is just bad behavior.

 

[Meatros]

Is it me, or does that last post sound like Ark Guy?

Edit: Urk, what's with my stuff becoming bolded?

A touch, actually.

 

[Arikay]

Did you miss the thread I made?
http://www.christianforums.com/t88472

Or do I not count as "credible?"


If you trully want to know about hovind, visit the link, or make a post with one or two of his arguments, and find out how good they are, if you are happy posting a link, ignore the responses, then claim "there are no credible arguments" then go ahead. (edit: although it will reinforce the thought that hovind listeners dont care about science, learning or the truth, but only what hovind feeds them.)

I find this funny and amusing. I posted to get feedback, as far as right now I have not heard one credible argument.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I posted to get feedback, as far as right now I have not heard one credible argument.

You are either lying or you are closing your eyes and plugging your ears. In this thread people have given a cursory analysis of common Hovind claims (e.g., conservation of angular momentum) and why Hovind is so fundamentally wrong that it's nearly impossible for anyone with a basic science education to take him seriously.

In addition, someone (Arikay) actually took the time to listen to one of the streams on the link you posted and offered refutations of his claims (which are also his common claims) and started the thread explicitly for you...you know, the one that says (For Josh) and yet you seemingly haven't even acknowledged its existence. In case you missed it:

http://www.christianforums.com/t88472

I am not closing my eyes or plugging my ears, I just wanted some scientific review of what you thought.

I find this hard to believe when you have ignored the discussions of science and the thread created for you instead complaining about us commenting on Hovind's reputation and lack of credibility (which are relevant). Furthermore, this isn't the first time you've come here advocating Hovind's claims and have had scientific information presented to you that you essentially passed over, eventually admitting your own ignorance in these areas. In that case, it might be best to actually learn about science rather than going to a creationist propgandist's website who tells you what you want to hear by appealing to your emotions rather than real science. That way you can see for yourself why he is wrong. Furthermore, you could do a search for Hovind on this forum and you'll see numerous places where his claims have been refuted.

Here's an example of a thread started by another creationist trying to defend Hovind's credibility by presenting his claims. They were demolished...keep reading including the very last page and you'll see. That's not the only example on this forum, but it's not like we haven't discussed him before:

http://www.christianforums.com/t62440

This is where you posted several months ago and you got plenty of answers then and responses regarding Hovind's credibility. Apparently you didn't learn anything the first time around:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1071275#post1071275

Just because their (arguments) not foolproof, they are still justified arguments.

What arguments are justified as scientifically valid? Start bringing up claims here or in a new thread, and people will likely address them so long as you don't spam.

I have personally talked to AIG, you bringing up does not discredit Hovind and statements such as "even AIG discredits Hovind" are incorrect.

Josh

How do you personally talk to a creationist organization? Evidently you must think AIG indicates a person's initials, in which case I think you're lying, especially when many of their points on the 'arguments creationists should not use' list are found on Hovind's website! (Edit: it appears as though this has been cleared up somewhat while I was typing, so whatever...)

In any case, if another creationist organization that also pushes bad science discredits Hovind, then you know he must be pretty bad in terms of credibility.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Of course homeschoolers have a higher GPA. Mom grades the papers and tests-duh!!!! The class rank is pretty amazing as well, huh. A child and a sibling so a kid graduates 1 out of 2 and they are in the top 1/2 of their class !!!!

Oh stop laughing. Homeschoolers score higher on every standardized test devised. Mock them and you mock me.

 

[Meatros]

Oh stop laughing. Homeschoolers score higher on every standardized test devised. Mock them and you mock me.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm curious (I've wondered this, but haven't gotten a response from someone who has actually been homeschooled): Do you find that you missed out on the social atmosphere of school (I'm not trying to be offensive, just genuinely curious)?

 

[LorentzHA]

Lorentzha :Where did I claim you came to argue? Where did I make an ad-hom. against you?? Show me.

Lorentzha : Josh1-You really need to study evolution more. You are ARGUING on emotion not on logic or fact.

Yes, you were arguing I did not say you came here to argue, did I?

Just figured I would answer your question. By the way, I never accused YOU of making ad-hominem attacks, there were many others in that ship.

What were the Ad. Homs the others made? I did have not really seen any in this thread??

Lorentzha : Of course homeschoolers have a higher GPA. Mom grades the papers and tests-duh!!!!

This shows your ignorance in this subject. Many homeschoolers send their papers in to be graded by certain orginizations that were brought up for the purpose of working with homeschoolers.

Mom teaches and presents the material but sends it out to graded-sounds rather, fishy. So basically anyone could do the work and send it out to be graded on someone elses behalf...odd .

It is true that in some cases moms do grade the papers, but in most they do not.

No bother how it is done. How can a mother teach Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc. if she has never been exposed to it?? She cannot. Plus, the kids miss out on a HUGE part of the school experience-SOCIAL interaction and meeting people UNLIKE themselves. The homeschooled kids I have met, start out bright and inquisitive and become a clone of mom and dad's opinions -FAST. The ones I have met that are in the later grades have the personalities of a wet mop, but hey that just may be the handful of kids I have met.

I have mentioned my point in here many times and I get the same old stuff. I brought up a radio program that Dr. Hovind defended himself and in one section went piece by piece thru the arguments on the websites that many of you have wanted me to look at. I wanted to see what you thought about it and how you would critique his rebuttal to your rebuttal. So many of you that say that I am trying to further his ministry or teaching is not correct.

His teachings are NOT correct-AT ALL, regarding science. If he wants to be a preacher then be a preacher but this man has NO BUSINESS talking about science. He is not a scientist, has not studied the sciences formally (or informally by the sound of it).

As far as the audience, Hovind has debated in secular crowds and at universities. He fields questions from classes at many well known universities.

And you think the students attend to learn from this man?

He has never claimed that Patriot was a big school or even close to mainstream.

BIG is not even the issue here. It is a residential address! Give me a break. The gymnasium is a basketball post i nthe driveway and the lecture hall is the living room with Married with Children blaring out of a cheap TV set.

I find this funny and amusing.

You find many things funny and amusing EXCEPT falsified science. Reality is funny to you but make believe is not.

I posted to get feedback, as far as right now I have not heard one credible argument.

Credible being what, that it agrees with you or Hovind?

I am not closing my eyes or plugging my ears, I just wanted some scientific review of what you thought. Why is Hovinds view incorrect?

It is incorrect because he does not use scientific principlas. The facts and evidence say differently. It is not a guessing or opinion game, there is right and wrong and Hovind is wrong. Learn some science and see for yourself.

 

[Arikay]

Hopefully Josh proves me wrong, but I get the feeling he wont be back, at least for awhile.

 

[LorentzHA]

Is it me, or does that last post sound like Ark Guy?

Edit: Urk, what's with my stuff becoming bolded?

It is the equivalent of the creationists debate style. "I will say it louder this time."

 

[ThePhoenix]

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm curious (I've wondered this, but haven't gotten a response from someone who has actually been homeschooled): Do you find that you missed out on the social atmosphere of school (I'm not trying to be offensive, just genuinely curious)?

Get that all the time. Honestly? Nope. I'm in college right now, I socialize just fine. Not the most social person here, not the least. The "social" aspect is something most homeschoolers get, since research shows that the average homeschooler participates in 4-5 activities (I could dig up the statistics, if you want). They gave a video of homeschooled children playing to psychologists along with videos of "normal" children, and the psychologists could not identify the difference. Most tests show that the only difference is homeschoolers have less behavioral issues.

 

[LorentzHA]

Oh stop laughing. Homeschoolers score higher on every standardized test devised. Mock them and you mock me.

Not mocking you Phoenix. And what do you mean by "higher"? As compared to what? There are FAR fewer homeschoolers than mainstream high-schoolers so what group of mainstream schoolers is used to ascertain that they score "higher" than? Curious about that.

 

[LorentzHA]

Get that all the time. Honestly? Nope. I'm in college right now, I socialize just fine. Not the most social person here, not the least. The "social" aspect is something most homeschoolers get, since research shows that the average homeschooler participates in 4-5 activities (I could dig up the statistics, if you want). They gave a video of homeschooled children playing to psychologists along with videos of "normal" children, and the psychologists could not identify the difference. Most tests show that the only difference is homeschoolers have less behavioral issues.

I am not a fan of homeschooling but the "behavioral" issues I can agree with and see how that could be. I have a young daughter who picks up the "behaviors" of others kids at school and mimics it, but I think if it was not there it wouxld be neighborhood kids, so it will happen, eventually. It is my job as her mother to correct it, immediately.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Lorentzha : Of course homeschoolers have a higher GPA. Mom grades the papers and tests-duh!!!!

Mom teaches and presents the material but sends it out to graded-sounds rather, fishy. So basically anyone could do the work and send it out to be graded on someone elses behalf...odd .

The SATs are hardly done that way. But you're going to be a proof whiner aren't you?
Here we go - this sufficient? Standardized tests. We all take them.
http://www.mhot.org/testing.html

No bother how it is done. How can a mother teach Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc. if she has never been exposed to it?? She cannot. Plus, the kids miss out on a HUGE part of the school experience-SOCIAL interaction and meeting people UNLIKE themselves. The homeschooled kids I have met, start out bright and inquisitive and become a clone of mom and dad's opinions -FAST. The ones I have met that are in the later grades have the personalities of a wet mop, but hey that just may be the handful of kids I have met.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-294.html
Social interaction is a myth. Your handfull is, from personal experience with dozens of homeschoolers, BS. The mops tend to be mops of whatever prevailing opinion there is. In school they would have been the fashion followers and mall-rats. As for the rest - I direct you to my science "teacher" who couldn't tell if magnetic fields block radiation. HOVIND could probably manage that one (ok... maybe not). And guess what? No one can teach you anything. Only you can teach yourself.

His teachings are NOT correct-AT ALL, regarding science. If he wants to be a preacher then be a preacher but this man has NO BUSINESS talking about science. He is not a scientist, has not studied the sciences formally (or informally by the sound of it).

And you think the students attend to learn from this man?

Hovind has many interesting things to teach. The gullibility of man, the amount of scientific ignorance present in this country, the way that desperate people will latch on to anything, the lack of critical reading people tend to give opinions that match theirs, etc.

Homeschooling - all the documentation you could need
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/homeschool.pdf

 

[Arikay]

To get into the Homeschool debate, I think a combination of the two is good. At a young age, the Social interaction is Not a myth and is very important in a childs development. In highschool its also important but not as much so. Although I would be more on the side that highschool interactions are important as well.

Of course, this is Social interactions, and obviously school is not the only place to have them.


It really depends on the student, as some people dont do well in school, but do well in homeschooling and sometimes the reverse it true.

In the end, it often comes down to opinion and in my opinion for me, public school worked well. I had both the choice to go to private school and the choice to graduate well ahead of my class, but im glad that I didn't.

 

[LorentzHA]

The SATs are hardly done that way. But you're going to be a proof whiner aren't you?
Here we go - this sufficient? Standardized tests. We all take them.
http://www.mhot.org/testing.html

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-294.html
Social interaction is a myth. Your handfull is, from personal experience with dozens of homeschoolers, BS. The mops tend to be mops of whatever prevailing opinion there is. In school they would have been the fashion followers and mall-rats. As for the rest - I direct you to my science "teacher" who couldn't tell if magnetic fields block radiation. HOVIND could probably manage that one (ok... maybe not). And guess what? No one can teach you anything. Only you can teach yourself.


Hovind has many interesting things to teach. The gullibility of man, the amount of scientific ignorance present in this country, the way that desperate people will latch on to anything, the lack of critical reading people tend to give opinions that match theirs, etc.

Homeschooling - all the documentation you could need
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/homeschool.pdf

The SATs are hardly done that way. But you're going to be a proof whiner aren't you? Here we go - this sufficient? Standardized tests. We all take them.
http://www.mhot.org/testing.html

I know how the SATS are done. But they can not take the SAT at home and then mail it in, can they? It has to be at a testing center. Proof whiner? Hardly. I am interested, not whining. Nothing to whine about. I am curious but not passionate one way or another about homeschooling. I personally do not agree with it, but if it worked for you, great. I just do not believe ALL parents are capable of homeschooling their children, many of those that think they are though, should not be. I have my own personal reasons regarding some people who live in my street.

I agree in part about self teaching- In college I feel much is self taught and up to the student. But in elementary the teacher is VERY important. I would have had trouble teaching myself long division or fractions as I think most youngsters would. The link above says that the students test above their grade level but not that they score higher than other kids on the SAT. Ok, I see now where it says they scored above the median, but this does not mean they score better than most kids who do not homeschool, right?

I went to a nationally ranked private (parochial) high school and found the atmoshpere to be quite nice. If you are doing fine in college and happy to have been home schooled then I am happy for you The kids that I have met, here in Texas that have been homeschooled, are for religious reasons and do not seem as outgoing as the other kids. No, that is not BS, it is my opinion as I stated the first time.

Hovind has many interesting things to teach. The gullibility of man, the amount of scientific ignorance present in this country, the way that desperate people will latch on to anything, the lack of critical reading people tend to give opinions that match theirs, etc.

Agreed. Your very bottom link would not open for me. Maybe I do not have the software? It said it was downloading something and then would not open.

 

[LorentzHA]

Sorry about the above mess. I had some trouble with the quote tags for some reason on your post. You can get the idea though.