Creation, science, and the Nicene creed

[dad]

I read the Nicene creed that you posted twice, just to be sure.

Didnt see anything about the Bible in the list of beliefs it requires.

Creation...all thing created. That takes belief.

 

[mark kennedy]

So a person o the forum claiming to be Christian should not be preaching evolution, one would think. Especially mods.

No Christian should be overtly hostile to the doctrine of creation since it's essential doctrine. What's more calling it evolution is a misnomer, evolution is a phenomenon in nature. The 'theory of evolution', aka Darwinism is an assumption of exclusively naturalistic causes going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. Make no mistake, at the heart of this issue is the modern disdain for anything miraculous.

As far as the moderation policy I don't think they should side with the evolutionists because I've seen it on other boards. Invariably Creationists are silenced and censored and dangled as targets. Of course they should be allowed to voice their various opinions but creation is essential doctrine, if you reject the miraculous you have denied the faith. Moderation policy should reflect. You should be allowed to remind Christians of this unavoidable tenant of revelation and redemption without being censored.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So a person o the forum claiming to be Christian should not be preaching evolution, one would think. Especially mods.

One might think that, but one would be wrong.

But please, don't let me stop you from telling the mods what they should/shouldn't do.

 

[dad]

No Christian should be overtly hostile to the doctrine of creation since it's essential doctrine. What's more calling it evolution is a misnomer, evolution is a phenomenon in nature. The 'theory of evolution', aka Darwinism is an assumption of exclusively naturalistic causes going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. Make no mistake, at the heart of this issue is the modern disdain for anything miraculous.

As far as the moderation policy I don't think they should side with the evolutionists because I've seen it on other boards. Invariably Creationists are silenced and censored and dangled as targets. Of course they should be allowed to voice their various opinions but creation is essential doctrine, if you reject the miraculous you have denied the faith. Moderation policy should reflect. You should be allowed to remind Christians of this unavoidable tenant of revelation and redemption without being censored.

Sounds right.

It is true that those who toss out the word evolution should be honest about the depth and breath and height of their dark religion.

 

[dad]

One might think that, but one would be wrong.

But please, don't let me stop you from telling the mods what they should/shouldn't do.

OK

 

[mark kennedy]

Sounds right.

It is true that those who toss out the word evolution should be honest about the depth and breath and height of their dark religion.

Honestly I wouldn't have such a problem with them if they didn't have such a problem with me. This comes down to miracles vs naturalistic process and I realize evolution happens on an epic scale. About 2000 BC the Ark touches down on Ararat with all the parents for all reptiles, birds and mammals which now the number of species would be from 2 to 60 million. That is in fact a radical adaptive radiation.

We differ with the evolutionist with regard to the point of origin and timeline. Because the subject matter is origins it falls under the category of metaphysics not science. So they run us in circles trying to pit us against science and evolutionary biology when the actual problem is neither. They have a philosophy of natural history just like we have one for redemptive history. In the former God is universally and categorically rejected as a cause for anything in the natural world going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. How on earth does that square with the Nicene Creed or the clear testimony of Scripture. With regards to being a Christian what you believe or don't believe is a very big deal.

 

[dad]

Honestly I wouldn't have such a problem with them if they didn't have such a problem with me. This comes down to miracles vs naturalistic process and I realize evolution happens on an epic scale. About 2000 BC the Ark touches down on Ararat with all the parents for all reptiles, birds and mammals which now the number of species would be from 2 to 60 million. That is in fact a radical adaptive radiation.

True, that rapid evolving did happen.

We differ with the evolutionist with regard to the point of origin and timeline. Because the subject matter is origins it falls under the category of metaphysics not science. So they run us in circles trying to pit us against science and evolutionary biology when the actual problem is neither. They have a philosophy of natural history just like we have one for redemptive history. In the former God is universally and categorically rejected as a cause for anything in the natural world going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. How on earth does that square with the Nicene Creed or the clear testimony of Scripture. With regards to being a Christian what you believe or don't believe is a very big deal.

That is what I am wondering because I have debated some folks before they decided to become a mod. I know that they disbelieve creation big time, and embrace evolution in a wicked way. Yet their icon would be Christian, and we are not supposed to disagree with them, or we break the rules.

 

[MissRowy]

True, that rapid evolving did happen.

That is what I am wondering because I have debated some folks before they decided to become a mod. I know that they disbelieve creation big time, and embrace evolution in a wicked way. Yet their icon would be Christian, and we are not supposed to disagree with them, or we break the rules.

So you believe that Christians shouldn't believe or embrace evolution? What happened to freedom of belief? My beliefs are my beliefs.

 

[mark kennedy]

True, that rapid evolving did happen.

This isn't about evolution, it's about the miraculous nature of creation.

That is what I am wondering because I have debated some folks before they decided to become a mod. I know that they disbelieve creation big time, and embrace evolution in a wicked way. Yet their icon would be Christian, and we are not supposed to disagree with them, or we break the rules.

I ran into that myself, I've been saying for years, you must be a creationist to be a Christian, often citing the Nicene Creed. Last time I did that I got reported and received my first warning after posting here and saying the same exact thing for twelve years. At the same time a moderator and one of the resident trollers we're flaming AIG back into the stone age, I reported it and it was promptly ignored even though I seen people banned for far less. This board was quite literally the only discussion forum I ever found where you could have a civil discussion on the subject of origins. There is always someone posting in these threads who thinks it's their duty as an evolutionist to insult me for being a creationist. The last thread I started in here was no exception, only this time it was a theistic evolutionist. As always I remained him of the Nicean creed and I was promptly issued my first warning. I was also warned that quoting the New Testament witness concerning creation was prohibited and I've effectively been exiled to apologetics ever since.

The moderation policy has changed dramatically, the other boards I've posted to, America's Debate and EVC both have moderators who join in the feeding frenzy. I've never seen it this bad on CF except for maybe the 7-7-7 change of moderation policy allowing atheists and skeptics to post in Cristians only forums. Creationists scattered never to return, they started private discussions and these days I only hear from Creationist via PM. The last one thanked me perfusly for being a ray of light in this darkness. Most self respecting Creationist would never post to a forum set up as a shooting gallery for evolutionist. I haven't seen an ID proponent on here is years, they are rare birds anyway but getting every post gang tackled gets old after a while.

I find it unlikely Origin Theology will recover, its over run with cultists and Darwinian skeptics. I don't think Creationists have posted there for some time.

Grace and Peace,
Mark

 

[dad]

So you believe that Christians shouldn't believe or embrace evolution? What happened to freedom of belief? My beliefs are my beliefs.

That's nice.

 

[dad]

This isn't about evolution, it's about the miraculous nature of creation.


I ran into that myself, I've been saying for years, you must be a creationist to be a Christian, often citing the Nicene Creed. Last time I did that I got reported and received my first warning after posting here and saying the same exact thing for twelve years. At the same time a moderator and one of the resident trollers we're flaming AIG back into the stone age, I reported it and it was promptly ignored even though I seen people banned for far less. This board was quite literally the only discussion forum I ever found where you could have a civil discussion on the subject of origins. There is always someone posting in these threads who thinks it's their duty as an evolutionist to insult me for being a creationist. The last thread I started in here was no exception, only this time it was a theistic evolutionist. As always I remained him of the Nicean creed and I was promptly issued my first warning. I was also warned that quoting the New Testament witness concerning creation was prohibited and I've effectively been exiled to apologetics ever since.

Unbelievable.

The moderation policy has changed dramatically, the other boards I've posted to, America's Debate and EVC both have moderators who join in the feeding frenzy. I've never seen it this bad on CF except for maybe the 7-7-7 change of moderation policy allowing atheists and skeptics to post in Cristians only forums.

I don't mind them posting, they may be here to learn, in some cases. I do mind posters or mods who boast a Christian icon, and who agreed with the creed being hypocrites.

Creationists scattered never to return, they started private discussions and these days I only hear from Creationist via PM. The last one thanked me perfusly for being a ray of light in this darkness. Most self respecting Creationist would never post to a forum set up as a shooting gallery for evolutionist. I haven't seen an ID proponent on here is years, they are rare birds anyway but getting every post gang tackled gets old after a while.

I don't mind the poor evos trying to tackle me. The problem starts when evos creep into the mod positions, and shut down believers under a false pretense.

In any fair fight, believers...at least this believer...will win. I remember the EVC board, where the mods silenced those who pointed out evolution was just a belief. They also disallowed bible, claiming it didn't fit in a science forum basically. At creation forums, they allowed christians to post and use the bible. These days, that seems to be changing. The lie that belief in God and creation and the bible doesn't fit in a science discussion seems to be growing here. I also notice that unbelievers who basically badmouth the bible and Jesus and creation and believers are given a fairly free hand, while the mod wrath 'of god' comes down on me and probably others for less. Maybe it is my imagination...

 

[mark kennedy]

Unbelievable.

I never thought it would happen here.

I don't mind them posting, they may be here to learn, in some cases. I do mind posters or mods who boast a Christian icon, and who agreed with the creed being hypocrites.

Well when reminding people that creation is essential doctrine can get you banned and and you can literally slander Christian ministry without restraint, it's obviously bias.

I don't mind the poor evos trying to tackle me. The problem starts when evos creep into the mod positions, and shut down believers under a false pretense.

Don't mind? I look high and low for them. Some of the actual atheists and agnostics can be rather engaging and occasionally well read. The theistic evolutionists are the worst, as far as I can tell it's a philosophy that serves only to attack creationists. They are no more familar with the Scriptures or the sciences but invariably pontificate about both.

In any fair fight, believers...at least this believer...will win. I remember the EVC board, where the mods silenced those who pointed out evolution was just a belief. They also disallowed bible, claiming it didn't fit in a science forum basically. At creation forums, they allowed christians to post and use the bible. These days, that seems to be changing. The lie that belief in God and creation and the bible doesn't fit in a science discussion seems to be growing here. I also notice that unbelievers who basically badmouth the bible and Jesus and creation and believers are given a fairly free hand, while the mod wrath 'of god' comes down on me and probably others for less. Maybe it is my imagination...

No I've seen it to and I think it's because most creationist have lost interest in Creationism. The Pew Institute has done a running survey on Creationism since the eighties and it shows an interesting trend. Creationist views of origins has remain fairly static while the atheistic view has risen 11 %, take a wild guess where the increase is coming from.

 

[dad]

The theistic evolutionists are the worst, as far as I can tell it's a philosophy that serves only to attack creationists. They are no more familar with the Scriptures or the sciences but invariably pontificate about both.

Right, all under the protection of the 'holy catholic' apostate mods and co.

 

[mark kennedy]

Right, all under the protection of the 'holy catholic' apostate mods and co.

This place has gotten to hot to handle before, this is just the first time I've seen where the mods are joining in. I was a mod for a while and the reports were always the same thing, someone is getting over zealous or posting where they shouldn't be. We used to do something they called a request for edit, it worked like a charm. I always followed up and generally there were two or three exchanges before it was resolved. The last Mod to contact me by PM blocked me from returning a message, after giving me a warning, editing my post and completely over looking the fact that I was getting flamed in post after post.

Just kind of how it is right now

 

[Speedwell]

As far as the moderation policy I don't think they should side with the evolutionists because I've seen it on other boards. Invariably Creationists are silenced and censored and dangled as targets. Of course they should be allowed to voice their various opinions but creation is essential doctrine, if you reject the miraculous you have denied the faith. Moderation policy should reflect. You should be allowed to remind Christians of this unavoidable tenant of revelation and redemption without being censored.

No, you should not be allowed to. You should not be allowed to denounce the faith of a sincere fellow Christian, especially in the hostile fashion which YECs frequently adopt. Neither Creationism nor the theologically inadequate interpretation of Genesis which goes with it are essential doctrines of the faith, nor widely held within Christendom. Get over it.

 

[dad]

This place has gotten to hot to handle before, this is just the first time I've seen where the mods are joining in. I was a mod for a while and the reports were always the same thing, someone is getting over zealous or posting where they shouldn't be. We used to do something they called a request for edit, it worked like a charm. I always followed up and generally there were two or three exchanges before it was resolved. The last Mod to contact me by PM blocked me from returning a message, after giving me a warning, editing my post and completely over looking the fact that I was getting flamed in post after post.

Just kind of how it is right now

OK, thanks...cheers.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No Christian should be overtly hostile to the doctrine of creation since it's essential doctrine.

It's also quite a simple one: God created.

But like nearly everything else Jesus taught, institutionalized religion found a way to turn the plainly simple into the ludicrously complicated. And who benefits from doing so? Not Christ, and certainly not Christians.

What's more calling it evolution is a misnomer, evolution is a phenomenon in nature.

A phenomenon which, like everything else in nature, is under God's control -- either directly or indirectly.

The 'theory of evolution', aka Darwinism is an assumption of exclusively naturalistic causes going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. Make no mistake, at the heart of this issue is the modern disdain for anything miraculous.

Funny thing about the miraculous -- so many things that were previously thought of as miraculous were later revealed to be naturalistic: lightning, earthquakes, physical and mental disease, etc... that when religious people attempt to draw the line, when they attempt to say, "Stop! We were wrong about all those other things, but this time it really, really, really is a miracle, so don't ask any more questions!" What do you expect besides disdain?

It's not the genuine miracles that are disdained -- it's the automatic labeling of anything unknown or not understood as a "miracle" solely because it's unknown or not understood.

Such thinking has never helped anyone before; why should now be any different?

 

[dad]

Funny thing about the miraculous -- so many things that were previously thought of as miraculous were later revealed to be naturalistic: lightning, earthquakes, physical and mental disease, etc...

Part of the judgments of God in the final years will be big quakes. When Jesus was crucified there was a big quake. That sounds natural to you??
Another plague or disease of the end time will be great sores on men who take the mark of the beast. In other cases men will be stung from the tail of locust like creatures, and suffer bad health. So disease also has a very spiritual component. Mental disease sometimes is a result of demonic activity, because when Jesus sent out the demon from one guy they noticed he was then calm and in his right mind.
There was also rain being withheld and even wind that are part of the end time events from God. One cannot say that all these things are strictly 'natural' and that man understands them.

It's not the genuine miracles that are disdained -- it's the automatic labeling of anything unknown or not understood as a "miracle" solely because it's unknown or not understood.

Conversely, man thinks he understands, and tries to make everything not a miracle.

It is the old issue of belief or unbelief.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Part of the judgments of God in the final years will be big quakes. When Jesus was crucified there was a big quake. That sounds natural to you??

Sounds embellished to me.

Another plague or disease of the end time will be great sores on men who take the mark of the beast. In other cases men will be stung from the tail of locust like creatures, and suffer bad health. So disease also has a very spiritual component.

Which can and has been used in the past to justify the belief that those who are ill deserve it. medicine itself is demonized as men seeking to thwart God's will that certain people be punished with illness.

One would hope we would've outgrown such superstitions.

Mental disease sometimes is a result of demonic activity, because when Jesus sent out the demon from one guy they noticed he was then calm and in his right mind.

Cool story, bro. And it served the purpose which the Biblical authors -- in their ignorance of the nature and causes of mental illness -- intended. Alas, you missed the point.

Unless, of course, you think that "demonic activity" can be fought with a few CCs of Thorazine or Haldol...

There was also rain being withheld and even wind that are part of the end time events from God. One cannot say that all these things are strictly 'natural' and that man understands them.

Of course we can call them natural -- and we do understand them. You may not, but so what?

Conversely, man thinks he understands, and tries to make everything not a miracle.

It is the old issue of belief or unbelief.

True, but you're omitting a very important detail -- unbelief works. Belief... not so much.

 

[dad]

Sounds embellished to me.

Not at all, it was actually toned down. The events of the judgments of God in the end are specific, and some even listed in the old testament.

They do not depend on how they sound to you.

Which can and has been used in the past to justify the belief that those who are ill deserve it. medicine itself is demonized as men seeking to thwart God's will that certain people be punished with illness.

Anything can be abused, and probably will be. That does not change the reality of things. People just prefer to leave God out of their little explanations.

One would hope we would've outgrown such superstitions.

God and the spiritual are realties.

Cool story, bro. And it served the purpose which the Biblical authors -- in their ignorance of the nature and causes of mental illness -- intended. Alas, you missed the point.

Your invented point has no value as far as the bible goes. Jesus did not say He cast out demons, and restored minds and bodies to show us He had nothing to do with things! Ridiculous contortion.

Unless, of course, you think that "demonic activity" can be fought with a few CCs of Thorazine or Haldol...

??In some cases a mind is affected by demonic activity. They used to bind them with chains, these days the method de jour seems to be to drug them into a stupor (and make a lot of money doing so)

Of course we can call them natural -- and we do understand them. You may not, but so what?

Gabriel spoke to Mary, she understood fine. So do most of us reading the bible.

True, but you're omitting a very important detail -- unbelief works. Belief... not so much.

Belief in demonic drugs can 'work' for some, but it is artificial and deceptive, and comes with addiction and side effects.