Creation of the Sabbath

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This does not seem to align with NT teaching, unless you are stating that the apostles are in an unsaved state when they died as they kept every Sabbath Acts 13:42-44 Acts 16:8 Acts 18:4 etc. etc. decades after the death of Jesus when He died and on His death His covenant ratified and nothing could be changed to His covenant.

Jesus commissioned the apostles to observe everything He commanded. Mat 28:18-20 His faithful followers kept the Sabbath according to the commandment after His death Luke 23:20.

I think it’s up to Jesus who is saved and who is not. God kept the Sabbath, Jesus kept the Sabbath, His apostles kept the Sabbath and His faithful followers kept the Sabbath according to the commandment. Luke 23:56 Seems like the group to be in instead of doing our own thing, as we were made in the image of God to follow Him.

Once God blesses something as He did the seventh day Sabbath, man can not reverse Num 23:20 and in all of your assessment, not one passage was quoted from scripture, yet alone a thus saith the Lord about God’s holy Sabbath day. If you prayerfully research all the Sabbath scripture in God’s Word almost all have a thus saith the Lord around them, so thats some big shoes one would need to fill to disprove God’s Sabbath and His holy day that He said in His own Words. Isaiah 58:13. There is no scripture in all of God’s Word that says we can break any of His commandments- Jesus said we are not to break the least of them. Math 5:19-30 The one commandment God said Remember, the one that is holy and blessed by God is doubtful that is a least commandment, but even if so, Jesus told us to keep. Jesus said heaven and earth would pass before one dot if an i or cross of a t could be removed from His holy law. Mat 5:18 My faith is in His every Word and until God says we can break His Sabbath and His holy day, my faith is in Him.

This is what God says:

Isaiah 56:1

Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—


We should be a servant to God instead of following the crowd keeping mans traditions over the commandments of God. Mark 7:7-8 Mat 15:3-9

They kept the Sabbath because they were Jews and it was part of their culture, but they did not make keeping the Sabbath an essential part of their salvation in Christ. At no stage did Paul teach the Gentile believers to keep the Jewish Sabbath. Therefore, keeping the Saturday Sabbath is irrelevant to Gentile believers. They follow what the writer to the Hebrews said - that Jesus Himself has become their Sabbath rest, making it unnecessary to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

Your quote from Isaiah is to Old Covenant Jews who were still under the Law in which keeping the Saturday Sabbath was a requirement. The OT Sabbath was just a foreshadow of the true Sabbath rest through faith in Christ.

If one is intent on following the Old Covenant Law, then Christ is of no advantage to them, and it is only through Christ that one can be saved.

 

[daq]

Unless one acknowledges and accepts that Jesus has become the believers' Sabbath rest which replaces the obligation to keep the Saturday Sabbath, they may be religious, but they can't claim to be Christian.

Colossians 2:16
16 Let none therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new month [νεομηνιας] or the Shabbat,

Sorry for your luck, Judge Watchman, the above passage applies both ways.

However I do fear for you on account of your having so eagerly cast aside the commandments of both the Meshiah and Paul, as stated respectively in Matthew 7:1-5 and Romans 2:1-13, in order to vaunt yourself over the faithful and boast against your fellow branches.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Colossians 2:16
16 Let none therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new month [νεομηνιας] or the Shabbat,

Sorry for your luck, Judge Watchman, the above passage applies both ways.

However I do fear for you on account of your having so eagerly cast aside the commandments of both the Meshiah and Paul, as stated respectively in Matthew 7:1-5 and Romans 2:1-13, in order to vaunt yourself over the faithful and boast against your fellow branches.

I'm just a Gentile guy who reads and believes the New Testament. The Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments is irrelevant to me. I live and walk in the Spirit who teaches and guides me according the righteousness of Christ which has been bestowed on me as God's free gift. "By grace I am saved through faith, not of myself, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." Also,
"There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1). Walking after the flesh involves trying to follow the Commandments through my own strength in order to establish a righteousness that is apart from the righteousness of Christ. If I tried to follow God's moral laws and commandments in the flesh, then grace is no more grace for me, and I have fallen away from Christ and remain lost in my iniquities and sins.

 

[daq]

I'm just a Gentile guy who reads and believes the New Testament. The Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments is irrelevant to me. I live and walk in the Spirit who teaches and guides me according the righteousness of Christ which has been bestowed on me as God's free gift. "By grace I am saved through faith, not of myself, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." Also,
"There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1). Walking after the flesh involves trying to follow the Commandments through my own strength in order to establish a righteousness that is apart from the righteousness of Christ. If I tried to follow God's moral laws and commandments in the flesh, then grace is no more grace for me, and I have fallen away from Christ and remain lost in my iniquities and sins.

The Spirit of which Paul speaks in the context surrounding Rom 8:1 is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, (the Gospel now known as Luke which he quotes from and expounds in 1Cor 11:23-25 and explains again in 1Cor 15:1-7), which all of his assemblies received together with the Acts 15 decrees from the Apostles and Elders at Yerushalem, (Acts 16:4). Moreover some texts do not include the critical portion of that statement in Rom 8:1 because it is repeated again in Rom 8:4, and may not have originally been in the first verse, (look at Rom 8:1 ASV).

And what does Rom 8:4 say? That the righteousness of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. So there is indeed a righteousness of the Torah, and it is fulfilled by walking according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh: and yet you say the Torah is irrelevant to you.

The Testimony of the Master is the new Spirit of the new-renewed covenant foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 11:19-21 KJV
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you are Spirit and are Life.

The entire discourse recorded in John 6:29-65 is expounding Exodus 16, the quail, the manna, and the Shabbat: one passage cannot be understood while ignoring the other. And just as Paul says, in Rom 7:14a, the Torah is spiritual. You've been sold a bill of goods (<- idiom) in an attempt to prevent you from fulfilling the righteousness of the supernal Torah of Elohim.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Unless one acknowledges and accepts that Jesus has become the believers' Sabbath rest which replaces the obligation to keep the Saturday Sabbath, they may be religious, but they can't claim to be Christian.

Weird you would believe your words over the very Words of Jesus Christ.

There is no scripture in all of God's Word that Jesus is the Sabbath. Jesus is the Creator, not reduced to the creation i.e. a day or a commandment, which is why you never posted scripture to back your claim, because it's not in God's holy Word. We are warned if we go outside God's holy Word there is no light Isa 8:20 which means danger. This aligns with the very teachings of Jesus on His holy commandments I would suggest you prayerfully read Creation of the Sabbath so you are not following the crowd, instead of the narrow path we are told to take.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Spirit of which Paul speaks in the context surrounding Rom 8:1 is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, (the Gospel now known as Luke which he quotes from and expounds in 1Cor 11:23-25 and explains again in 1Cor 15:1-7), which all of his assemblies received together with the Acts 15 decrees from the Apostles and Elders at Yerushalem, (Acts 16:4). Moreover some texts do not include the critical portion of that statement in Rom 8:1 because it is repeated again in Rom 8:4, and may not have originally been in the first verse, (look at Rom 8:1 ASV).

And what does Rom 8:4 say? That the righteousness of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. So there is indeed a righteousness of the Torah, and it is fulfilled by walking according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh: and yet you say the Torah is irrelevant to you.

The Testimony of the Master is the new Spirit of the new-renewed covenant foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 11:19-21 KJV
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you are Spirit and are Life.

The entire discourse recorded in John 6:29-65 is expounding Exodus 16, the quail, the manna, and the Shabbat: one passage cannot be understood while ignoring the other. And just as Paul says, in Rom 7:14a, the Torah is spiritual. You've been sold a bill of goods (<- idiom) in an attempt to prevent you from fulfilling the righteousness of the supernal Torah of Elohim.

Cobbling some unrelated verses together doesn't prove anything. Also, Romans 8:4 doesn't say what you are trying to make it say. When it says that the righteousness of the Torah is fulfilled in us, it doesn't mean that being in the Spirit means that we keep the Torah. It means that the righteousness of Christ that has been bestowed on us means that the righteousness that would otherwise be required by keeping the Torah has been superseded by the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us through our faith in Christ and His finished work on the Cross.

This means that we don't have to keep the Torah at all. In fact, continuing to keep the Torah negates the finished work of Christ on the Cross, because we can't have two righteousness, in the same way that we can be in the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time. Keeping the Torah is being in the flesh. And Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So trying to keep the Torah, being in the flesh, brings condemnation, because one has to keep the Torah without a single fault from the youth up. One infraction of the Torah brings condemnation, because breaking even one minor command means the breaking of the whole Torah.

Walking in the Spirit means that God's moral law has been written on our hearts, and as we walk in the light with Christ, God sees us as totally righteous apart from the Torah.

However, having said that, if you want to continue trying to keep the Torah by continuing to extract Bible verse to try and prove it, while leaving out other important New Testament passages, then that is your choice.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Weird you would believe your words over the very Words of Jesus Christ.

There is no scripture in all of God's Word that Jesus is the Sabbath. Jesus is the Creator, not reduced to the creation i.e. a day or a commandment, which is why you never posted scripture to back your claim, because it's not in God's holy Word. We are warned if we go outside God's holy Word there is no light Isa 8:20 which means danger. This aligns with the very teachings of Jesus on His holy commandments I would suggest you prayerfully read Creation of the Sabbath so you are not following the crowd, instead of the narrow path we are told to take.

What Hebrews 4 tells us is that there is a better Sabbath rest for the people of God than the Jewish Sabbath, and if the Jewish Sabbath was sufficient, then there would be no mention of a better day in which the people of God could enter into a better rest. It says that because God rested from His works, so the people of God will enter into a rest from their works also. We know from other places where the Gospel is clearly shown, that there is no other name under which people can be saved, than Jesus Christ. Therefore, the rest apart from works has to be through faith in Christ, and this supersedes the Jewish Sabbath, which is merely a foreshadow of the perfect rest in Christ that is promised to every born again believer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What Hebrews 4 tells us is that there is a better Sabbath rest for the people of God than the Jewish Sabbath, and if the Jewish Sabbath was sufficient, then there would be no mention of a better day in which the people of God could enter into a better rest. It says that because God rested from His works, so the people of God will enter into a rest from their works also. We know from other places where the Gospel is clearly shown, that there is no other name under which people can be saved, than Jesus Christ. Therefore, the rest apart from works has to be through faith in Christ, and this supersedes the Jewish Sabbath, which is merely a foreshadow of the perfect rest in Christ that is promised to every born again believer.

Where is the verse in Hebrews 4 that says Jesus turned into a commandment and now we can profane the Sabbath day, instead of keeping it holy thus saith the Lord? Exo 20:8-11. This should be just as clear as the way God wrote and God spoke and will need to have a thus saith the Lord as no man is above God to countermand Him and His commandments or can reverse His blessing Num 23:20 or reverse what came out of His mouth who said He would not alter Psa 89:34 same what Jesus said Mat 5:18 Mar 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8 and it does not reconcile with the rest of God’s Word Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:8 Acts 18:4 Luke 23:56 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14-15


Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 has a lot of dimensions to them and can only be understood properly if we understand what happened to the Israelites in order for them to pass into their promise land (rest) the writer of Hebrews is making a parallel teaching between why they did not enter into their rest (Canaan) and showing how it applies to us TODAY to not follow their same path of disobedience so we can enter into our promised rest Hebrews 4:11. There are two different rests in Hebrews and you will not be able to properly understand this passage unless you understand what these different rests mean, which the Greek spells out for us. Also disobedience and unbelief are interchangeable in these passages, which is an important principle that applies today

Lets start with Hebrews 3 as it sets up the background for Hebrews 4

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Please note the rest in these verses is not the seventh day Sabbath. It is this rest:

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

So the Israelites rebelled in the wilderness and could not enter into their rest.

Ezekiel tells us what the Israelites disobeyed in the wilderness and why some who did never entered into their Promised rest

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:20
20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’ 21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Also keep in mind Moses reviewed the Ten Commandments which includes the Sabbath commandment 40 years after they were given by God and right before Joshua led them into the Promises Land (their rest) and told them to diligently keep, so it would be a dangerous mistake to think we can follow their same example of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 to receive our rest in Christ Heb 4:10

So with this background it should make understanding Hebrews 4 easier. This whole passage is about how we are not to follow their same example of disobedience Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11 and why the Sabbath-rest (keeping) remains (not changed) for God's people. Hebrews 4:9 NIV and the rest in this verse literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 Those who enter into His rest (Christ rest) ALSO cease from his works as God did from His.

When did God cease from His works?

This very passage tells us.....

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; Which is a reference to the 4th commandment Exo 20:8-11

What is the seventh day according to God? He tells us so plainly written with His own finger!

The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. Exo 20:10

Those who enter His rest also rest on the seventh day (Sabbath keeping) just as God did Exo 20:11. Man is made in the image of God to follow Him.

Sabbath keeping never ended for the people of God, but remains which is why we are not to follow the same path of disobedience of the Israelites. Heb 4:11 In God's rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments and the Sabbath is a commandments of God that remains for His people.

Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Isa 48:18

I pray this helps.

 

[daq]

Cobbling some unrelated verses together doesn't prove anything. Also, Romans 8:4 doesn't say what you are trying to make it say. When it says that the righteousness of the Torah is fulfilled in us, it doesn't mean that being in the Spirit means that we keep the Torah.

Yes it does, if you understand the Torah: but you must believe Paul when he tells you that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and if you do not believe what he says then you end up rejecting the Word of the Father and cannot be immersed in His Name, (Matthew 28:19).

It means that the righteousness of Christ that has been bestowed on us means that the righteousness that would otherwise be required by keeping the Torah has been superseded by the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us through our faith in Christ and His finished work on the Cross.

No, you are required to take up your own cross, utterly deny yourself, and follow him, if you would be his disciple: and he himself says that if not then you cannot be his disciple, (Luke 14:25-27).

This means that we don't have to keep the Torah at all.

What it means is that you have no clue what the Torah is really about because you have been spoon-fed church dogmas.

In fact, continuing to keep the Torah negates the finished work of Christ on the Cross, because we can't have two righteousness, in the same way that we can be in the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time. Keeping the Torah is being in the flesh. And Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So trying to keep the Torah, being in the flesh, brings condemnation, because one has to keep the Torah without a single fault from the youth up. One infraction of the Torah brings condemnation, because breaking even one minor command means the breaking of the whole Torah.

That's according to your Pharisaic interpretation of the Torah: you really should start believing Mosheh, the Meshiah, and Paul instead of the Pharisees.

Walking in the Spirit means that God's moral law has been written on our hearts, and as we walk in the light with Christ, God sees us as totally righteous apart from the Torah.

However, having said that, if you want to continue trying to keep the Torah by continuing to extract Bible verse to try and prove it, while leaving out other important New Testament passages, then that is your choice.

Suit yourself.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where is the verse in Hebrews 4 that says Jesus turned into a commandment and now we can profane the Sabbath day, instead of keeping it holy thus saith the Lord? Exo 20:8-11. This should be just as clear as the way God wrote and God spoke and will need to have a thus saith the Lord as no man is above God to countermand Him and His commandments or can reverse His blessing Num 23:20 or reverse what came out of His mouth who said He would not alter Psa 89:34 same what Jesus said Mat 5:18 Mar 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8 and it does not reconcile with the rest of God’s Word Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:8 Acts 18:4 Luke 23:56 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14-15


Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 has a lot of dimensions to them and can only be understood properly if we understand what happened to the Israelites in order for them to pass into their promise land (rest) the writer of Hebrews is making a parallel teaching between why they did not enter into their rest (Canaan) and showing how it applies to us TODAY to not follow their same path of disobedience so we can enter into our promised rest Hebrews 4:11. There are two different rests in Hebrews and you will not be able to properly understand this passage unless you understand what these different rests mean, which the Greek spells out for us. Also disobedience and unbelief are interchangeable in these passages, which is an important principle that applies today

Lets start with Hebrews 3 as it sets up the background for Hebrews 4

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Please note the rest in these verses is not the seventh day Sabbath. It is this rest:

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

So the Israelites rebelled in the wilderness and could not enter into their rest.

Ezekiel tells us what the Israelites disobeyed in the wilderness and why some who did never entered into their Promised rest

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:20
20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’ 21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Also keep in mind Moses reviewed the Ten Commandments which includes the Sabbath commandment 40 years after they were given by God and right before Joshua led them into the Promises Land (their rest) and told them to diligently keep, so it would be a dangerous mistake to think we can follow their same example of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 to receive our rest in Christ Heb 4:10

So with this background it should make understanding Hebrews 4 easier. This whole passage is about how we are not to follow their same example of disobedience Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11 and why the Sabbath-rest (keeping) remains (not changed) for God's people. Hebrews 4:9 NIV and the rest in this verse literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 Those who enter into His rest (Christ rest) ALSO cease from his works as God did from His.

When did God cease from His works?

This very passage tells us.....

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; Which is a reference to the 4th commandment Exo 20:8-11

What is the seventh day according to God? He tells us so plainly written with His own finger!

The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. Exo 20:10

Those who enter His rest also rest on the seventh day (Sabbath keeping) just as God did Exo 20:11. Man is made in the image of God to follow Him.

Sabbath keeping never ended for the people of God, but remains which is why we are not to follow the same path of disobedience of the Israelites. Heb 4:11 In God's rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments and the Sabbath is a commandments of God that remains for His people.

Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Isa 48:18

I pray this helps.

Because I am not Jewish and therefore not part of that culture, the Torah is irrelevant to me. The Gentile churches that Paul founded had no idea what the Torah was, or the Ten Commandments which include the Saturday Sabbath. Therefore salvation in Christ does not obligate me to become Jewish or to adopt Jewish theology or culture. So you can quote verses of Scripture until the cows come home that may have been relevant to Old Covenant Jews, but they have no application for me. The Old Testament contains educational material for me to make me aware of the foundations that led to Christ, but contain no instructions for me to follow. There are also no instructions in the New Testament that I should observe the Saturday Sabbath, or Sunday Sabbath, or any Sabbath connected with the Old Covenant.

My foundation verse is: "By grace I am saved through faith, not of myself, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast." There is no mention of keeping any Sabbath for me in that verse.

When Paul conferred with the Apostles at Jerusalem to address the issue that the Judaizers were making circumcision and keeping the Mosaic law as conditions for salvation, the conclusions and instructions to the Gentile churches to be conveyed by Paul to them, did not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

So you are wasting your time trying to tell non Jewish Christian believers that they should be observing the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes it does, if you understand the Torah: but you must believe Paul when he tells you that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and if you do not believe what he says then you end up rejecting the Word of the Father and cannot be immersed in His Name, (Matthew 28:19).



No, you are required to take up your own cross, utterly deny yourself, and follow him, if you would be his disciple: and he himself says that if not then you cannot be his disciple, (Luke 14:25-27).



What it means is that you have no clue what the Torah is really about because you have been spoon-fed church dogmas.



That's according to your Pharisaic interpretation of the Torah: you really should start believing Mosheh, the Meshiah, and Paul instead of the Pharisees.



Suit yourself.

As a non-Jewish Christian, the Torah is totally irrelevant to me. Paul never taught the Gentile churches to observe the Torah as the basis of Christian doctrine, in fact, the Gentile believers had no idea of what it was about, much less have any interest in it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because I am not Jewish and therefore not part of that culture, the Torah is irrelevant to me. The Gentile churches that Paul founded had no idea what the Torah was, or the Ten Commandments which include the Saturday Sabbath. Therefore salvation in Christ does not obligate me to become Jewish or to adopt Jewish theology or culture. So you can quote verses of Scripture until the cows come home that may have been relevant to Old Covenant Jews, but they have no application for me. The Old Testament contains educational material for me to make me aware of the foundations that led to Christ, but contain no instructions for me to follow. There are also no instructions in the New Testament that I should observe the Saturday Sabbath, or Sunday Sabbath, or any Sabbath connected with the Old Covenant.

My foundation verse is: "By grace I am saved through faith, not of myself, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast." There is no mention of keeping any Sabbath for me in that verse.

When Paul conferred with the Apostles at Jerusalem to address the issue that the Judaizers were making circumcision and keeping the Mosaic law as conditions for salvation, the conclusions and instructions to the Gentile churches to be conveyed by Paul to them, did not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

So you are wasting your time trying to tell non Jewish Christian believers that they should be observing the Saturday Sabbath.

You are making two different arguements. First you said in Hebrews 4 tells us not to keep the Sabbath, which I showed through scripture not the case, now the argument is the Sabbath is for Jews, but there is no scripture that says the Sabbath is the Sabbath for Jews. God says it is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 , made for man Mark 2:27 right at creation Gen 1:26 before Jew or Gentile just man.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 , just like thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not worship other gods. James NT teaching tells us if we break one of these commandments, we break them all James 2:10-12 and Jesus quotes directly from the Ten warning us not to break or teach others to break the least of these as it will affect our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30. The Sabbath is all throughout the NC and not once did Jesus tell us it’s no longer a commandment. We are saved by grace through faith and those with faith believe the teachings of Jesus and does them because of love and faith to Him. John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12

The Sabbath continues on for eternity Isa 66:22-23 and Jesus loves us so much would he want someone in heaven keeping the Sabbath week after week if they had so much contempt for it now as His will is the same for us in heaven as it is for us now.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are making two different arguements. First you said in Hebrews 4 tells us not to keep the Sabbath, which I showed through scripture not the case, now the argument is the Sabbath is for Jews, but there is no scripture that says the Sabbath is the Sabbath for Jews. God says it is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 , made for man Mark 2:27 right at creation Gen 1:26 before Jew or Gentile just man.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 , just like thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not worship other gods. James NT teaching tells us if we break one of these commandments, we break them all James 2:10-12 and Jesus quotes directly from the Ten warning us not to break or teach others to break the least of these as it will affect our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30. The Sabbath is all throughout the NC and not once did Jesus tell us it’s no longer a commandment. We are saved by grace through faith and those with faith believe the teachings of Jesus and does them because of love and faith to Him. John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12

The Sabbath continues on for eternity Isa 66:22-23 and Jesus loves us so much would he want someone in heaven keeping the Sabbath week after week if they had so much contempt for it now as His will is the same for us in heaven as it is for us now.

The Ten Commandments are the law of sin and death. As a born again believer, the Spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. Therefore I am have been set free from having to follow the Ten Commandments by receiving a new heart on which is written God's moral law which I follow by living and walking in the Spirit by faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Ten Commandments are the law of sin and death. As a born again believer, the Spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death. Therefore I am have been set free from having to follow the Ten Commandments by receiving a new heart on which is written God's moral law which I follow by living and walking in the Spirit by faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

The Ten Commandments is the law that points out sin Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 Romans 3:20 it shows us our condition and points us to Jesus for the solution who has the power to cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and to give us power to obey Him John 14:15-18 as our salvation is from sin, not in sin. Mat 1:21

Without knowing what our sins are or if you take away the law that shows us our sins, all that does is cover our sins and therefore we won’t know we need cleansing and won’t go to Jesus for forgivness and sanctification and therefore won’t receive His mercy and grace. Pro 28:13

Who do you think wants us to believe we can break the law that defines sin and have no consequences. It;s not Jesus 1 John 3:8

I’m not sure if you noticed this but you keep quoting “you” as if your words are equal to God’s Word. While our opinions are important to us, if we rely on them over understanding and obeying God’s Word, its only going to lead us down the wrong path Psa 3:5-6 Pro 14:12. There is no scripture that says we can break the Ten Commandments or they were done away with. It’s what’s in God’s heavenly Temple Rev 11:19 that all man will be judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 because it is not our standard of righteousness that matters, only God’s Psa 119:172 and only God’s Truth will set us free and all of God’s commandments are Truth Psa 119:151

Guess we will have to agree to disagree and this will all get sorted out soon enough

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Ten Commandments is the law that points out sin Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 Romans 3:20 it shows us our condition and points us to Jesus for the solution who has the power to cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and to give us power to obey Him John 14:15-18 as our salvation is from sin, not in sin. Mat 1:21

Without knowing what our sins are or if you take away the law that shows us our sins, all that does is cover our sins and therefore we won’t know we need cleansing and won’t go to Jesus for forgivness and sanctification and therefore won’t receive His mercy and grace. Pro 28:13

Who do you think wants us to believe we can break the law that defines sin and have no consequences. It;s not Jesus 1 John 3:8

I’m not sure if you noticed this but you keep quoting “you” as if your words are equal to God’s Word. While our opinions are important to us, if we rely on them over understanding and obeying God’s Word, its only going to lead us down the wrong path Psa 3:5-6 Pro 14:12. There is no scripture that says we can break the Ten Commandments or they were done away with. It’s what’s in God’s heavenly Temple Rev 11:19 that all man will be judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 because it is not our standard of righteousness that matters, only God’s Psa 119:172 and only God’s Truth will set us free and all of God’s commandments are Truth Psa 119:151

Guess we will have to agree to disagree and this will all get sorted out soon enough

Who says that I am living in a lawless way?
Who also say that I am equating my words to God's Word? I tend to quote Scripture from memory without needing to add chapter and verse references. I trust readers that they know the Bible well enough to see that I am actually quoting Scripture even though I might be paraphrasing it at times. After all, I have been studying the Scriptures for around 56 years so I should know them by now, and also know when I am making comments consistent with Scripture.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses for the children of Israel, and these commandments were extended in the Book of Deuteronomy. This book was written for Old Covenant people, not for Christian believers.

But God's moral law came well before the Ten Commandments. This law is based on extending the greatest good for the benefit of the whole universe and every moral agent living in it. It is not even based on God's will, because not even God can break it and be consistent with His own nature and character. In fact, His moral law is the expression of His nature and character and therefore He and it are inseparable. It is not a matter whether God can decide to keep His moral law or not, because His moral law is based on love, and God is love.

Therefore, when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, he receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and because God's moral law is inseparable with God Himself, that moral law is built into the believer along with the Holy Spirit. Therefore a person indwelled with the Holy Spirit will keep God's moral law as part of the nature and character of the Holy Spirit within him.

But we have the Holy Spirit within our sinful bodies and that is why John says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). This is why the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is also why we need to keep short accounts with God according to 1 John 1:9. This going to be the case while we are still living in this sinful body.

But when we are resurrected to newness of life and our sinfulness is left behind, our new sinless bodies will automatically comply with God's moral law, enabling us to have direct fellowship with God in heaven without anything getting in the way.

Therefore, God's moral law infused into the indwelling Holy Spirit is far superior to the Ten Commandments and the book of Deuteronomy, and so those two fall away as being obsolete and superseded by the indwelling Holy Spirit who maintains us as totally righteous in God's sight as we walk in the Spirit with Christ.

My view is that anyone who has difficulties maintaining God's moral law in their lifestyle, needs to examine themselves to see whether they are truly in the faith - whether they are truly converted to Christ and not merely wearing a Christian 'badge'.

 

[daq]

As a non-Jewish Christian, the Torah is totally irrelevant to me. Paul never taught the Gentile churches to observe the Torah as the basis of Christian doctrine, in fact, the Gentile believers had no idea of what it was about, much less have any interest in it.

Acts 17:10-12 KJV
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

You have a serious issue here in this alone, for there was no "New Testament" written at the time of the above statement, and it certainly implies that concerning those who searched the scriptures, to see whether the things Paul preached were true, "THEREFORE many of them believed".

These believers did not even have the same understanding of faith/belief that you apparently ascribe to, which appears to be Kierkegaardian fideism, which sees no need for knowledge, logic, or reasoning based on a set of facts or at least a set of accepted facts, (the scripture, according to those who believe it is the Word of the Almighty Creator).

Their belief was a belief based on what they believed to be factual information, and the knowldedge therein, and the Logos reasoning and logic from within that sacred scripture which they had available to them at the time, the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. When they searched the scripture to find the things which Paul had preached to them, they found his teachings to be true, not according to nonexistent writings, but according to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the TaNaK, (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim, the Hebrew Bible).

In your version of faith/belief you have no need for evidence to believe whatsoever you wish to believe: it is simply counted as true in your own heart and mind because you believe you have faith to believe what you wish to believe, and it isn't based on logic, or reasoning, or knowledge and understanding of a set of facts, (the scripture), or any evidence whatsoever.

PS: I guess I should say select evidence instead of no evidence, which appears to be cherry-picked verses and passages from a Pauline-only perspective, and which allows you to make up whatever meanings you wish about his letters and writings because you ignore all of the background contexts in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings which he quotes from.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Who says that I am living in a lawless way?
Who also say that I am equating my words to God's Word? I tend to quote Scripture from memory without needing to add chapter and verse references. I trust readers that they know the Bible well enough to see that I am actually quoting Scripture even though I might be paraphrasing it at times. After all, I have been studying the Scriptures for around 56 years so I should know them by now, and also know when I am making comments consistent with Scripture.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses for the children of Israel, and these commandments were extended in the Book of Deuteronomy. This book was written for Old Covenant people, not for Christian believers.

But God's moral law came well before the Ten Commandments. This law is based on extending the greatest good for the benefit of the whole universe and every moral agent living in it. It is not even based on God's will, because not even God can break it and be consistent with His own nature and character. In fact, His moral law is the expression of His nature and character and therefore He and it are inseparable. It is not a matter whether God can decide to keep His moral law or not, because His moral law is based on love, and God is love.

Therefore, when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, he receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and because God's moral law is inseparable with God Himself, that moral law is built into the believer along with the Holy Spirit. Therefore a person indwelled with the Holy Spirit will keep God's moral law as part of the nature and character of the Holy Spirit within him.

But we have the Holy Spirit within our sinful bodies and that is why John says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). This is why the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is also why we need to keep short accounts with God according to 1 John 1:9. This going to be the case while we are still living in this sinful body.

But when we are resurrected to newness of life and our sinfulness is left behind, our new sinless bodies will automatically comply with God's moral law, enabling us to have direct fellowship with God in heaven without anything getting in the way.

Therefore, God's moral law infused into the indwelling Holy Spirit is far superior to the Ten Commandments and the book of Deuteronomy, and so those two fall away as being obsolete and superseded by the indwelling Holy Spirit who maintains us as totally righteous in God's sight as we walk in the Spirit with Christ.

My view is that anyone who has difficulties maintaining God's moral law in their lifestyle, needs to examine themselves to see whether they are truly in the faith - whether they are truly converted to Christ and not merely wearing a Christian 'badge'.

I never said anything about you or the way you live, I would have no idea and thats between you and God.

The Ten Commandments is what defines sin and its like a mirror and shows us our sin. Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

God’s law was given prior to Mt Sinai as it is the law that defines sin when broken. Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 without law there is no transgression Romans 4:15, so God’s law started in heaven because Lucifer sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8 meaning he broke God’s law in heaven.

We do not need to guess what law is in heaven as scripture tells us and of course it is the only commandments that God personally wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 the only law inside the ark of the covenant and is revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 and is what the earthy temple was patterned after Heb 8:1-5

No law, no transgression. Adam and Eve sinned so therefore they broke God’s law. Cain knew it was a sin to murder Abel therefore God told Him His law.

The Holy Spirit is given to help us keep these very commandments John 14:15-18 and to convict us of sin (breaking God’s law) and is given to those who obey Acts 5:32

Our views our fine, but they do not trump scripture and quoting scripture text is important so it can be examined because its easy to insert our words with God’s Word and then its no longer God’s pure Words Pro 30:5-6

Our salvation is from sin, not in sin Mat 1:21 and Jesus shows us the way, He led by example keeping all of the commandments including the Sabbath tells us not to break the least of these commandments or teach others to break Mat 5:19-30 and He only leads us down the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Who says that I am living in a lawless way?
Who also say that I am equating my words to God's Word? I tend to quote Scripture from memory without needing to add chapter and verse references. I trust readers that they know the Bible well enough to see that I am actually quoting Scripture even though I might be paraphrasing it at times. After all, I have been studying the Scriptures for around 56 years so I should know them by now, and also know when I am making comments consistent with Scripture.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses for the children of Israel, and these commandments were extended in the Book of Deuteronomy. This book was written for Old Covenant people, not for Christian believers.

But God's moral law came well before the Ten Commandments. This law is based on extending the greatest good for the benefit of the whole universe and every moral agent living in it. It is not even based on God's will, because not even God can break it and be consistent with His own nature and character. In fact, His moral law is the expression of His nature and character and therefore He and it are inseparable. It is not a matter whether God can decide to keep His moral law or not, because His moral law is based on love, and God is love.

Therefore, when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, he receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and because God's moral law is inseparable with God Himself, that moral law is built into the believer along with the Holy Spirit. Therefore a person indwelled with the Holy Spirit will keep God's moral law as part of the nature and character of the Holy Spirit within him.

But we have the Holy Spirit within our sinful bodies and that is why John says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). This is why the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is also why we need to keep short accounts with God according to 1 John 1:9. This going to be the case while we are still living in this sinful body.

But when we are resurrected to newness of life and our sinfulness is left behind, our new sinless bodies will automatically comply with God's moral law, enabling us to have direct fellowship with God in heaven without anything getting in the way.

Therefore, God's moral law infused into the indwelling Holy Spirit is far superior to the Ten Commandments and the book of Deuteronomy, and so those two fall away as being obsolete and superseded by the indwelling Holy Spirit who maintains us as totally righteous in God's sight as we walk in the Spirit with Christ.

My view is that anyone who has difficulties maintaining God's moral law in their lifestyle, needs to examine themselves to see whether they are truly in the faith - whether they are truly converted to Christ and not merely wearing a Christian 'badge'.

If there is no law then there is no sin and no need for grace. Sin the the transgression of the law.

 

[Gary K]

As a non-Jewish Christian, the Torah is totally irrelevant to me. Paul never taught the Gentile churches to observe the Torah as the basis of Christian doctrine, in fact, the Gentile believers had no idea of what it was about, much less have any interest in it.

How then do you know Jesus is the Messiah?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How then do you know Jesus is the Messiah?

Because that is what He told the Samaritan woman at the well.