• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Creation ex nihilo challenge

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

If it is that important to you be my guest to run through the many pages of my account to find them. I don't care enough to take the time. I know that many on here know that I have presented it numerous times to provide evidence to support the beginning of the universe.
 
Upvote 0

CabVet

Question everything
Dec 7, 2011
11,738
176
Los Altos, CA
✟35,902.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If it is that important to you be my guest to run through the many pages of my account to find them. I don't care enough to take the time. I know that many on here know that I have presented it numerous times to provide evidence to support the beginning of the universe.

Sorry, if there was so much evidence I thought it was easy to link. Maybe I am wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Interesting reading, thanks. From your link:

If a big bang is permitted by the laws of physics to happen once, such an event should be able to happen more than once. In recent years a growing posse of cosmologists has proposed models of the universe involving many big bangs, perhaps even an infinite number of them. In the model known as eternal inflation there is no ultimate origin of the entire system, although individual “pocket universes” within the total assemblage still have a distinct origin.

Davis never addresses this model and in fact, specifically states he is going to ignore it to focus on only one model, where a single universe comes into being.

So there are cosmologists right now who think that the model I proposed may be right. Here is a good starter on that model. Cyclic Universe
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
I would say yes. Why wouldn't you?
I would, just like I would say that a tree is made visible even if there is no one there to see it. That was your original claim remember? That "made visible" and "revealed" aren't the same thing.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, if there was so much evidence I thought it was easy to link. Maybe I am wrong.

Here ya go:

1. The universe had a beginning. According the the Christian faith God claims that the universe had a beginning.

Evidence: 'Ripples' of the Big Bang reveal the beginning of the universe | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

2. The universe started from nothing. God claims he spread out the heavens. The universe didn’t not expand into space as space…nothing existed to expand in.

There's another important quality of the Big Bang that makes it unique. While an explosion of a man-made bomb expands through air, the Big Bang did not expand through anything. That's because there was no space to expand through at the beginning of time. Rather, physicists believe the Big Bang created and stretched space itself, expanding the universe.
Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium

3. The visible universe is made up of the invisible.

Dark matter | CERN

Lets not forget the atom as well.

4. The universe is fine tuned not only for life as we know it but for the universe to exist at all. This fine tuning supports design.

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe
Parameter Max. Deviation
Ratio of Electrons:protons 1:1037
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:1040
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:1055
Mass Density of Universe1 1:1059
Cosmological Constant 1:10120
These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.


Theoretical physicist Paul Davies writes that, when looking at the overall structure of the universe, "the impression of design is overwhelming" (1988, p. 203). So this is one example of the illusion of design I was referring to in the op
4. Intelligibility and Discoverability of the universe and nature. God claims that He made the universe so that we can discover and understand the universe.

"the eternal mystery of the world is that it is comprehensible.... The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle" (Quoted in Calaprice, 1996, p. 197). Albert Einstein

"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Physical Sciences," Eugene Wigner, one of the principal founders of quantum mechanics, famously claimed that "The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve" (1960, p. 14).

a common reaction among physicists to remarkable discoveries of the sort discussed above is a mixture of delight at the subtlety and elegance of nature, and of stupefaction: 'I would never have thought of doing it that way.' If nature is so 'clever' that it can exploit mechanisms that amaze us with their ingenuity, is that not persuasive evidence for the existence of intelligent design behind the physical universe? Paul Davies

5. God claimed there were laws for the universe.

"uncovering the laws of physics resembles completing a crossword in a number of ways.... In the case of the crossword, it would never occur to us to suppose that the words just happened to fall into a consistent interlocking pattern by accident...." Paul Davies (1984, pp. 235-36)

6 Fine tuning of the earth itself.

I think we all know the requirements for life on this planet. We know it is exactly what it needs to be for us to be here. So the evidence is vast in this area.

LIFE: Appearance of design I am using quotes that Scientists see design but they “believe” it is explained by evolution.

"Biology is the study of complex things that appear to have been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins

“living organisms "appear to have been carefully and artfully designed." Richard Lewontin

Francisco Ayala " The functional design of organisms and their features would .. seem to argue for the existence of a designer. It was Darwin's greatest accomplishment [however] to show that the directive organization of living beings can be explained as the result of a natural process, natural selection, without any need to resort to a Creator or other external agent." from "Darwin's Greatest Discovery"
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting reading, thanks. From your link:

If a big bang is permitted by the laws of physics to happen once, such an event should be able to happen more than once. In recent years a growing posse of cosmologists has proposed models of the universe involving many big bangs, perhaps even an infinite number of them. In the model known as eternal inflation there is no ultimate origin of the entire system, although individual “pocket universes” within the total assemblage still have a distinct origin.

Davis never addresses this model and in fact, specifically states he is going to ignore it to focus on only one model, where a single universe comes into being.

So there are cosmologists right now who think that the model I proposed may be right. Here is a good starter on that model. Cyclic Universe

Your welcome and thank you for your link as well.

Considering your model I'd like to ask you how this occurs considering the second law of thermodynamics?
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
No, I'm not deliberately misconstruing what you're saying, it's just that I'm not clear on what you're saying.

I don't think you're claiming that the universe is more than 14-15 billion years old, are you?
No, I'm hypothesizing the same thing the Cyclic Model of the universe does, that the universe as an entity may have existed eternally but this physical incarnation of the universe has only been around for ~14B years.
 
Upvote 0

justlookinla

Regular Member
Mar 31, 2014
11,767
199
✟35,675.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, I'm hypothesizing the same thing the Cyclic Model of the universe does, that the universe as an entity may have existed eternally but this physical incarnation of the universe has only been around for ~14B years.

The universe created this physical incarnation of the universe? I'm not following you.
 
Upvote 0

CabVet

Question everything
Dec 7, 2011
11,738
176
Los Altos, CA
✟35,902.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here ya go:

1. The universe had a beginning.

Not evidence. (see the Zeus example).

2. The universe started from nothing.

Neither evidence, nor Biblical.

3. The visible universe is made up of the invisible.

Not evidence.

4. The universe is fine tuned not only for life as we know it but for the universe to exist at all.

Statistical fallacy. Is the lottery "fine tuned" for the winners?

5. God claimed there were laws for the universe.

No he didn't. If creative interpretation like that is allowed, Nostradamus got many more things right than the Bible.

6 Fine tuning of the earth itself.

See #4 above.

"Biology is the study of complex things that appear to have been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins

“living organisms "appear to have been carefully and artfully designed." Richard Lewontin

Francisco Ayala " The functional design of organisms and their features would .. seem to argue for the existence of a designer. It was Darwin's greatest accomplishment [however] to show that the directive organization of living beings can be explained as the result of a natural process, natural selection, without any need to resort to a Creator or other external agent." from "Darwin's Greatest Discovery"

Really? Even you subscribe to the dishonest practice of quote mining?
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Funny ... he was honest enough to admit it.

Why can't you?
My bad, it is a mistake by KJV. Most other versions of the Bible it isn't and the word in question, shamayim, can be translated as either singular or plural.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Your welcome and thank you for your link as well.

Considering your model I'd like to ask you how this occurs considering the second law of thermodynamics?
I don't know. I'm not a physicist. I wasn't even sure that this particular model of the universe existed until I Googled it after thinking about it earlier in the thread. It simply seemed like a reasonable possibility, one of many.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not evidence. (see the Zeus example).

Nothing there yet.

Neither evidence, nor Biblical.
What do you mean not Biblical?

Not evidence.
Why?
Statistical fallacy. Is the lottery "fine tuned" for the winners?

Right, the fallacy is a fallacy.
No he didn't. If creative interpretation like that is allowed, Nostradamus got many more things right than the Bible.

What? That is a little weird. Are you saying that the Bible doesn't make that claim?

See #4 above.
Right, fallacy of a fallacy.
Really? Even you subscribe to the dishonest practice of quote mining?

Really, show me where I have misrepresented the people and what they said.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't know. I'm not a physicist. I wasn't even sure that this particular model of the universe existed until I Googled it after thinking about it earlier in the thread. It simply seemed like a reasonable possibility, one of many.

Well I certainly understand that it is an interesting consideration but the fact is that it doesn't seem real possible considering several things like the one I gave you.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,870.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The way in which you interpret the Bible, it could claim anything you want it to.

Well considering that I have admitted to problems with some of my interpretations and the current evidence proves you wrong. Also, in the past the current thought did not support my position. So in both cases you are proven incorrect.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
The universe created this physical incarnation of the universe? I'm not following you.
No, the universe did not create anything. Nor was the universe created. It has always existed. It expands and contracts. This particular expansion/contraction cycle has lasted ~14B years so far. That's what this particular model of the universe hypothesizes.

Let's see how you twist this...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0