Creation/Christianity versus Evolution/Atheism debate!!!

[Arikay]

You do realize how old this thread is, right?

If you want evidence against creationism, just start a new thread asking for evidence against a specific claim that creationists make and im sure we can give you info.

And remember, Evolution does not equal atheism.

Ok ok this discussion is good, but let us look at some facts. Armagedonman if you are going to make a statement as bold as “Creation myth vs. Science” then demonstrate to us how you have logically come to this profound conclusion. What does Science say against creation? What are the facts?

I realize this is a broad topic to tackle, but let us have some fun with it.

 

[Thatguymorgan]

The Scientific theory of evolution has about as much evidence backing it as germ Theory.

Statements without prove are unconvincing. Please reveal how this statement is true. what is the evidence for macro-evolution?

 

[Arikay]

Evidence for the real version of macro Evolution, or the creationist strawman version?

Real version,
Macro evolution could be considered basically speciation,
Here is one of many examples of speciation,
http://www.holysmoke.org/new-species.htm

Strawman Version,
This is normally the claim that a "kind" can never turn into a different "kind" but most of the time they dont explain what a "kind" is to begin with. Its normally punctuated by saying, Have you ever seen a something turn into a something. For example, a lizard into a whale.

Nope, I have yet to see a lizard turn into a whale, but then again, evolution doesn't expect this to happen the way they portray it.

The Scientific theory of evolution has about as much evidence backing it as germ Theory.

Statements without prove are unconvincing. Please reveal how this statement is true. what is the evidence for macro-evolution?

 

[Arikay]

and again, germ theory is only a "theory"

Have you ever taken antibiotics? Why did you if its only a "theory" ?

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Ah! But there you are wrong, gravity has been scientifically proven, a little thing called landing on the moon taught us that.

Then why is gravity described by the general theory of relativity? Gravity is both fact and theory. It is a fact that the lunar module could land on the moon. That is a factual observation of gravity. The explanation of how this occurs is why gravity is theory.

You obviously are in the dark, so let me enlighten you.

And your scientific qualifications are...?

Evolution, is a theroy, correct? Yet Scientists have stated that they have found proof that the theroy is fact. Yet, none of this "proof" Has ever been proven as fact.

Evolution is both fact and theory similar to the case of gravity. Descent with modification is an observable fact as we have observed changes in allele frequencies in populations of organisms from generation to generation. That is what evolution is, most simply. The theory of evolution describes how this occurs such that we see these observations (and those in the fossil record). It is the most logical explanation given all available facts.

Evoultionists, I pity you guys, so caught up in trying to prove your false belief system.

If it is a false, then why is there no evidence that demonstrates this? Furthermore, evolution is not a belief system. It is a scientific theory arrived at by the scientific method. You either choose to accept evidence or deny it. It's not a matter of belief.

You guys have about the same chance of proving evolution, as do Christians have of proving the existence of God.

There is no such thing as proof in science, strictly speaking, as theories are derived from deducing the most logical conclusion from all available evidence. Theories are the pinnacle of the scientific process. However, unlike the existence of god, the theory of evolution has supporting evidence (and loads of it) and is substantiated beyond reasonable doubt. The only doubters, as far as I can tell, do so out of emotion, not science.

You are merely throwing around old creationist straw man arguments. Moreover, your implied equation of evolution to atheism is incorrect, as scientific theories do not make any statement on the existence of deities. This is also evident by the fact that the majority of Christians accept the theory of evolution.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Why was a thread from over a year ago brought back from the dead anyway?

 

[Bushido216]

I'm glad I'm an evolutionist, I'm spared the embarrasment of being a creationist.

Ad hominem? Totally, but I just had to, vent some anger if you will.

 

[Bushido216]

Yeah? Over a year? Well, it was at the top, so I responded.

 

[Thatguymorgan]

I completely agree with the site you showed, but it is a far cry from proving macro-evolution. It shows a new species of plant.
I also agree with the vagueness of the world ‘kind”
I wish I had the sources in front of me, but a new theory of evolution has been forming and it divides evolution into four “kinds” man, birds, fish, and beast. ( this is not a creationist theory) but because I can not show you this by reference it serves as my feeble opinion.

 

[Arikay]

Tell me, what do you think macro evolution is?

Sounds like a creationist theory to me.

I completely agree with the site you showed, but it is a far cry from proving macro-evolution. It shows a new species of plant.
I also agree with the vagueness of the world ‘kind”
I wish I had the sources in front of me, but a new theory of evolution has been forming and it divides evolution into four “kinds” man, birds, fish, and beast. ( this is not a creationist theory) but because I can not show you this by reference it serves as my feeble opinion.

 

[TheBear]

What was the point of this thread again?

 

[Arikay]

I really have no clue, but whatever it was, it all played out a year or so ago.

 

[lucaspa]

ok, i didnt mean that christianity and evolution are always opposites. i meant that you could make it either debate, IE Christianity vs Evolution or Creationism versus Evolution Christianity vs Atheism etc

No, some of those debates aren't valid because they are not contradictory positions. For instance, there is no Christianity vs Evolution debate because the majority of Christians accept evolution.

You can discuss creationism vs evolution because both are scientific theories.

You can discuss theism vs atheism because both are faith positions.

The trouble comes in trying to have scientific theories vs faith positions. That you can't have.

 

[lucaspa]

What was the point of this thread again?

LOL! The point was that the original poster has confused two separate types of ideas: scientific theories and faith positions.

He equates the scientific theory of creationism with the faith position of Christianity and the scientific theory of evolution with the faith position of atheism.

The rest of the thread has been trying to straighten him out.

Be proud of the posters. They know the difference.

 

[lucaspa]

I completely agree with the site you showed, but it is a far cry from proving macro-evolution. It shows a new species of plant.
I also agree with the vagueness of the world ‘kind”
I wish I had the sources in front of me, but a new theory of evolution has been forming and it divides evolution into four “kinds” man, birds, fish, and beast. ( this is not a creationist theory) but because I can not show you this by reference it serves as my feeble opinion.

There is no such theory of evolution because man, birds, and fish all fit in the category "beast". I think you have a creationist misrepresentation of evolution.

Here is a list of speciation I have compiled from my readings. It is far from complete. BTW, if you want evidence of macroevolution, read Origin of the Species.

General
1. M Nei and J Zhang, Evolution: molecular origin of species. Science 282: 1428-1429, Nov. 20, 1998. Primary article is: CT Ting, SC Tsaur, ML We, and CE Wu, A rapidly evolving homeobox at the site of a hybrid sterility gene. Science 282: 1501-1504, Nov. 20, 1998. As the title implies, has found the genes that actually change during reproductive isolation.
2. M Turelli, The causes of Haldane's rule. Science 282: 889-891, Oct.30, 1998. Haldane's rule describes a phase every population goes thru during speciation: production of inviable and sterile hybrids. Haldane's rule states "When in the F1 [first generation] offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the heterozygous [heterogemetic; XY, XO, or ZW] sex."Two leading explanations are fast-male and dominance. Both get supported. X-linked incompatibilities would affect heterozygous gender more because only one gene."
3. Barton, N. H., J. S. Jones and J. Mallet. 1988. No barriers to speciation. Nature. 336:13-14.
4. Baum, D. 1992. Phylogenetic species concepts. Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 7:1-3.
5. Rice, W. R. 1985. Disruptive selection on habitat preference and the evolution of reproductive isolation: an exploratory experiment. Evolution. 39:645-646.
6. Ringo, J., D. Wood, R. Rockwell, and H. Dowse. 1989. An experiment testing two hypotheses of speciation. The American Naturalist. 126:642-661.
7. Schluter, D. and L. M. Nagel. 1995. Parallel speciation by natural selection. American Naturalist. 146:292-301.
8. Callaghan, C. A. 1987. Instances of observed speciation. The American Biology Teacher. 49:3436.
9. Cracraft, J. 1989. Speciation and its ontology: the empirical consequences of alternative species concepts for understanding patterns and processes of differentiation. In Otte, E. and J. A. Endler [eds.] Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. pp. 28-59.
10. Callaghan, C. A. 1987. Instances of observed speciation. The American Biology
Teacher. 49:3436.
Speciation in Insects
1. G Kilias, SN Alahiotis, and M Pelecanos. A multifactorial genetic investigation of speciation theory using drosophila melanogaster Evolution 34:730-737, 1980. Got new species of fruit flies in the lab after 5 years on different diets and temperatures. Also confirmation of natural selection in the process. Lots of references to other studies that saw speciation.
2. JM Thoday, Disruptive selection. Proc. Royal Soc. London B. 182: 109-143, 1972.
Lots of references in this one to other speciation.
3. KF Koopman, Natural selection for reproductive isolation between Drosophila pseudobscura and Drosophila persimilis. Evolution 4: 135-148, 1950. Using artificial mixed poulations of D. pseudoobscura and D. persimilis, it has been possible to show,over a period of several generations, a very rapid increase in the amount of reproductive isolation between the species as a result of natural selection.
4. LE Hurd and RM Eisenberg, Divergent selection for geotactic response and evolution of reproductive isolation in sympatric and allopatric populations of houseflies. American Naturalist 109: 353-358, 1975.
5. Coyne, Jerry A. Orr, H. Allen. Patterns of speciation in Drosophila. Evolution. V43. P362(20) March, 1989.
6. Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky, 1957 An incipient species of Drosophila, Nature 23: 289- 292.
7. Ahearn, J. N. 1980. Evolution of behavioral reproductive isolation in a laboratory stock of Drosophila silvestris. Experientia. 36:63-64.
8. 10. Breeuwer, J. A. J. and J. H. Werren. 1990. Microorganisms associated with chromosome destruction and reproductive isolation between two insect species. Nature. 346:558-560.
9. Powell, J. R. 1978. The founder-flush speciation theory: an experimental approach. Evolution. 32:465-474.
10. Dodd, D. M. B. and J. R. Powell. 1985. Founder-flush speciation: an update of experimental results with Drosophila. Evolution 39:1388-1392. 37. Dobzhansky, T. 1951. Genetics and the origin of species (3rd edition). Columbia University Press, New York.
11. Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky. 1971. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 230:289-292.
12. Dobzhansky, T. 1972. Species of Drosophila: new excitement in an old field. Science. 177:664-669.
13. Dodd, D. M. B. 1989. Reproductive isolation as a consequence of adaptive divergence in Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution 43:1308-1311.
14. de Oliveira, A. K. and A. R. Cordeiro. 1980. Adaptation of Drosophila willistoni experimental populations to extreme pH medium. II. Development of incipient reproductive isolation. Heredity. 44:123-130.15. 29. Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1988. Speciation via disruptive selection on habitat preference: experimental evidence. The American Naturalist. 131:911-917.
30. Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1990. The evolution of reproductive isolation as a correlated character under sympatric conditions: experimental evidence. Evolution. 44:1140-1152.
31. del Solar, E. 1966. Sexual isolation caused by selection for positive and negative phototaxis and geotaxis in Drosophila pseudoobscura. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (US). 56:484-487.
32. Weinberg, J. R., V. R. Starczak and P. Jora. 1992. Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory. Evolution. 46:1214-1220.
33. V Morell, Earth's unbounded beetlemania explained. Science 281:501-503, July 24, 1998. Evolution explains the 330,000 odd beetlespecies. Exploitation of newly evolved flowering plants.
34. B Wuethrich, Speciation: Mexican pairs show geography's role. Science 285: 1190, Aug. 20, 1999. Discusses allopatric speciation. Debate with ecological speciation on which is most prevalent.
Speciation in Plants
1. Speciation in action Science 72:700-701, 1996 A great laboratory study of the evolution of a hybrid plant species. Scientists did it in the lab, but the genetic data says it happened the same way in nature.
2. Hybrid speciation in peonies http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/061288698v1#B1
3. http://www.holysmoke.org/new-species.htm new species of groundsel by hybridization
4. Butters, F. K. 1941. Hybrid Woodsias in Minnesota. Amer. Fern. J. 31:15-21.
5. Butters, F. K. and R. M. Tryon, jr. 1948. A fertile mutant of a Woodsia hybrid. American Journal of Botany. 35:138.
6. Toxic Tailings and Tolerant Grass by RE Cook in Natural History, 90(3): 28-38, 1981 discusses selection pressure of grasses growing on mine tailings that are rich in toxic heavy metals. "When wind borne pollen carrying nontolerant genes crosses the border [between prairie and tailings] and fertilizes the gametes of tolerant females, the resultant offspring show a range of tolerances. The movement of genes from the pasture to the mine would, therefore, tend to dilute the tolerance level of seedlings. Only fully tolerant individuals survive to reproduce, however. This selective mortality, which eliminates variants, counteracts the dilution and molds a toatally tolerant population. The pasture and mine populations evolve distinctive adaptations because selective factors are dominant over the homogenizing influence of foreign genes."
7. Clausen, J., D. D. Keck and W. M. Hiesey. 1945. Experimental studies on the nature of species. II. Plant evolution through amphiploidy and autoploidy, with examples from the Madiinae. Carnegie Institute Washington Publication, 564:1-174.
8. Cronquist, A. 1988. The evolution and classification of flowering plants (2nd edition). The New York Botanical Garden, Bronx, NY.
9. P. H. Raven, R. F. Evert, S. E. Eichorn, Biology of Plants (Worth, New York,ed. 6, 1999).
10. M. Ownbey, Am. J. Bot. 37, 487 (1950).
11. M. Ownbey and G. D. McCollum, Am. J. Bot. 40, 788 (1953).
12. S. J. Novak, D. E. Soltis, P. S. Soltis, Am. J. Bot. 78, 1586 (1991).
13. P. S. Soltis, G. M. Plunkett, S. J. Novak, D. E. Soltis, Am. J. Bot. 82,1329 (1995).
14. Digby, L. 1912. The cytology of Primula kewensis and of other related Primula hybrids. Ann. Bot. 26:357-388.
15. Owenby, M. 1950. Natural hybridization and amphiploidy in the genus Tragopogon. Am. J. Bot. 37:487-499.
16. Pasterniani, E. 1969. Selection for reproductive isolation between two populations of maize, Zea mays L. Evolution. 23:534-547.
Speciation in microorganisms
1. Canine parovirus, a lethal disease of dogs, evolved from feline parovirus in the 1970s.
2. Budd, A. F. and B. D. Mishler. 1990. Species and evolution in clonal organisms -- a summary and discussion. Systematic Botany 15:166-171.
3. Bullini, L. and G. Nascetti. 1990. Speciation by hybridization in phasmids and other insects. Canadian Journal of Zoology. 68:1747-1760.
4. Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.
5. Brock, T. D. and M. T. Madigan. 1988. Biology of Microorganisms (5th edition). Prentice Hall, Englewood, NJ.
6. Castenholz, R. W. 1992. Species usage, concept, and evolution in the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). Journal of Phycology 28:737-745.
7. Boraas, M. E. The speciation of algal clusters by flagellate predation. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.
8. Castenholz, R. W. 1992. Speciation, usage, concept, and evolution in the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). Journal of Phycology 28:737-745.
9. Shikano, S., L. S. Luckinbill and Y. Kurihara. 1990. Changes of traits in a bacterial population associated with protozoal predation. Microbial Ecology. 20:75-84.
New Genus
1. Muntzig, A, Triticale Results and Problems, Parey, Berlin, 1979. Describes whole new *genus* of plants, Triticosecale, of several species, formed by artificial selection. These plants are important in agriculture.
Invertebrate not insect
1. ME Heliberg, DP Balch, K Roy, Climate-driven range expansion and morphological evolution in a marine gastropod. Science 292: 1707-1710, June1, 2001. Documents mrorphological change due to disruptive selection over time. Northerna and southern populations of A spirata off California from Pleistocene to present.
2. Weinberg, J. R., V. R. Starczak and P. Jora. 1992. Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event with a polychaete worm. . Evolution. 46:1214-1220.
Vertebrate Speciation
1. N Barton Ecology: the rapid origin of reproductive isolation Science 290:462-463, Oct. 20, 2000. www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/290/5491/462 Natural selection of reproductive isolation observed in two cases. Full papers are: AP Hendry, JK Wenburg, P Bentzen, EC Volk, TP Quinn, Rapid evolution of reproductive isolation in the wild: evidence from introduced salmon. Science 290: 516-519, Oct. 20, 2000. and M Higgie, S Chenoweth, MWBlows, Natural selection and the reinforcement of mate recognition. Science290: 519-521, Oct. 20, 2000
2. G Vogel, African elephant species splits in two. Science 293: 1414, Aug. 24, 2001. www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/293/5534/1414
3. C Vila` , P Savolainen, JE. Maldonado, IR. Amorim, JE. Rice, RL. Honeycutt, KA. Crandall, JLundeberg, RK. Wayne, Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog Science 276: 1687-1689, 13 JUNE 1997. Dogs no longer one species but 4 according to the genetics. http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm
4. Barrowclough, George F.. Speciation and Geographic Variation in Black-tailed Gnatcatchers. (book reviews) The Condor. V94. P555(2) May, 1992
5. Kluger, Jeffrey. Go fish. Rapid fish speciation in African lakes. Discover. V13. P18(1) March, 1992.
Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed since they were isolated from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago. (These fish have complex mating rituals and different coloration.) See also Mayr, E., 1970. _Populations, Species, and Evolution_, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348
6. Genus _Rattus_ currently consists of 137 species [1,2] and is known to have
originally developed in Indonesia and Malaysia during and prior to the Middle
Ages[3].
[1] T. Yosida. Cytogenetics of the Black Rat. University Park Press, Baltimore, 1980.
[2] D. Morris. The Mammals. Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1965.
[3] G. H. H. Tate. "Some Muridae of the Indo-Australian region," Bull. Amer. Museum Nat. Hist. 72: 501-728, 1963.
7. Stanley, S., 1979. _Macroevolution: Pattern and Process_, San Francisco,
W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41
Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island.
Speciation in the Fossil Record
1. Paleontological documentation of speciation in cenozoic molluscs from Turkana basin. Williamson, PG, Nature 293:437-443, 1981. Excellent study of "gradual" evolution in an extremely find fossil record.
2. A trilobite odyssey. Niles Eldredge and Michelle J. Eldredge. Natural History 81:53-59, 1972. A discussion of "gradual" evolution of trilobites in one small area and then migration and replacement over a wide area. Is lay discussion of punctuated equilibria, and does not overthrow Darwinian gradual change of form. Describes transitionals