Creation and atheists

Tenka · Apr 25, 2009

Tansy said:
Good point..I see what you mean now, and actually I do think that maybe when he set everything off, He did it in such a way that everything would work as He wanted...however, I'm still thinking a lot of things through.

I haven't thought through everything properly either but while I have problems with a 'tweaking' God being too imperfect I also have a problem with a God who conceives of some grand plan that somehow involves an Austrian man who imprisons his daughter in a secret basement and forces her to have his own grandchildren or some ecstasy addled, naked guy with a micropenis getting repeatedly tazed by 3 obese cops at a Coachella concert.
Reality is just to drat weird and scary and kooky to be part of some divine plan. IMO.

Unless the God is Greek, like Dionysus.

sk8Joyful · Apr 25, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
why would you bring up Darwin's theories? His research is 140 years out of date:
the modern synthesis would be a far more germane place to start, wouldn't you agree?

So... do you believe in the theory of common descent? I'm confused .

as a christian, I acknowledge that God/Jesus created all there is, & will be, including therefore: energy, the universe, sub-atomic particles, elements, plus lifeforms including us, and any other laws.

It's logical & reasonable to think that God may have started-out with the simplest life-forms, and added to them such
that each successively created Form & Structure functioned increasingly more complex.

This planet earth is evidently billions of years old.
But we, as humans, are a relatively new-creation on it; and
God Lovingly blessed (more, than His plant & animal creations) us humans with evolutionary choices...

We would be wise, to allow all Life-preserving & Life-developing to continue...and
how LIFE-abundantly will be, once God sets his original-plan back on course...
.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Tenka said:
I haven't thought through everything properly either but while I have problems with a 'tweaking' God being too imperfect I also have a problem with a God who conceives of some grand plan that somehow involves an Austrian man who imprisons his daughter in a secret basement and forces her to have his own grandchildren or some ecstasy addled, naked guy with a micropenis getting repeatedly tazed by 3 obese cops at a Coachella concert.
Reality is just to drat weird and scary and kooky to be part of some divine plan. IMO.

Unless the God is Greek, like Dionysus.

Yes, I can sympathise with that viewpoint, and I don't think that we have the whole answer to it, but probably better not get into all that on this thread

Bombila · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
Very good point...I'll have to think about that. Of course, I still think he might tweak stuff if a miracle is needed

That would still indicate un-godlike poor planning, and maybe second guessing, I think. If, for example, a healing miracle occurs - a god tweak, changing a probable outcome (disablement or death) to an improbable one (health or survival) - wouldn't that have to be an instance of God having not foreseen either the need for a miracle, or not being able to avert the undesired outcome by 'natural planning' (planning not to have the person in harm's way in the first place)?

sk8Joyful · Apr 25, 2009

Hespera said:
If God exists outside time and can see all points in time simultaneously,
i hardly see,
how he'd need to hop in and tweak anything.

God decided to give us, humans as rebellious as can be, evolutionary choices...
but in order for LIFE & this abundant... to continue -
at some point in the future (before satan's 'government' succeeds in destroying this entire planet),
God evidently will need to STOP the planetary-murder; such that LIFE & this abundant... can, in fact, continue...
.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 26, 2009

Legion.As.One said:
The thought of a god existing is tearing holes in my logical mind.
How can something create the universe, when it has no place to exist?

Because it doesn't require a place to exist: God isn't a little man with a beard sitting on a rock in space . He's more... ethereal, than that. Think about the metaphors used in the Bible to describe God: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", etc.

Or, think of it this way: God existed in his own, eternal universe, and our universe is just a bubble within it.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 26, 2009

sk8Joyful said:
as a christian, I acknowledge that God/Jesus created all there is, & will be, including therefore: energy, the universe, sub-atomic particles, elements, plus lifeforms including us, and any other laws.

It's logical & reasonable to think that God may have started-out with the simplest life-forms, and added to them such
that each successively created Form & Structure functioned increasingly more complex.

So God actively added to them, or passively watched as they added to themselves?

sk8Joyful said:
This planet earth is evidently billions of years old.
But we, as humans, are a relatively new-creation on it; and
God Lovingly blessed (more, than His plant & animal creations) us humans with evolutionary choices...

We would be wise, to allow all Life-preserving & Life-developing to continue...and
how LIFE-abundantly will be, once God sets his original-plan back on course...
.

Thanks for answer my question .

Legion.As.One · Apr 26, 2009

Because it doesn't require a place to exist: God isn't a little man with a beard sitting on a rock in space . He's more... ethereal, than that. Think about the metaphors used in the Bible to describe God: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", etc.

Or, think of it this way: God existed in his own, eternal universe, and our universe is just a bubble within it.

That is really a odd thought. And an argument for theists. Maybe its true, but I don't believe it is.

That really got me thinking... what is eternal? When you're eternal do you have a beginning? AHHHH! Curses on you, Wiccan_Child!

Wiccan_Child · Apr 26, 2009

Legion.As.One said:
That is really a odd thought. And an argument for theists. Maybe its true, but I don't believe it is.

That really got me thinking... what is eternal? When you're eternal do you have a beginning?

You can do. Being eternal means that you'll never stop existing, but you could certainly start existing at some point. Of course, the whole notion of time gets put through the wringer when talking about the origin of spacetime...

Legion.As.One said:
AHHHH! Curses on you, Wiccan_Child!

Mwahahahahahaaa .

sk8Joyful · Apr 26, 2009

Originally Posted by Legion.As.One

The thought of a god existing is tearing holes in my logical mind.
How can something create the universe, when it has no place to exist?

tansy said:
I've sometimes wondered that myself.
Then again, lots of things don't seem to be logical, until one finds the answer.
I'm sure it's all perfectly logical to God.

Hi one & tansy
Consider, if you will, God as the all/omni: Loving~Present~Knowing~Creating~Seeing~Hearing~Powerful eternally...

Now you know, that the way God lives all these simultaneously,
is living as He mostly does outside mortally-defined space, & places, and time -
yes, God has like this always existed, and will always continue...

Of course, at various needful times, God has taken on (in our case, human-physical form), such that
logically we can have an easier time relating, in order that His Loved-creations can continue...developing and growing.

Yet mostly God lives similar, to how we did as a "soul" so remember:
Right: we, each of us, is a (placeless, spaceless, & timeless) soul, here on earth living momentarily.
How wonderful are you making this part of your eternal... life

Legion.As.One · Apr 26, 2009

That is a good way to think of it, makes more sense.
But I still wonder how something that created the universe can have done so outside it confines, where there is nothing.
How can something that great be possible, much less sentient? Something that omnipotent is what I call the universe, i.e. everything. But to me the universe isn't sentient.

sk8Joyful · Apr 26, 2009

Legion.As.One said:
That is a good way to think of it, makes more sense.

But I still wonder how something that created the universe can have done so outside its confines, where there is
nothing.
How can something that great be possible, much less sentient?
Something that omnipotent is what I call the universe, i.e. everything. But to me the universe isn't sentient.

Good questions! -

Well, let's suppose you are an Artist/painter which really you are, with practice...

Now your universe consists of your blank pieces of
sentient? paper, on which is, you perceive: nothing

Yet, outside the confines of all your papers, is your sentient soul,
plus your amazing Image-nation , as but a fraction of your powerful Learning-mind .
And added to these 2 free-gifts from your ALL-loving God,
He further blessed you with an amazing physical body.
Behold ... with these 3 parts of you, all the Beauty you can create, as an Artist/painter...

Well, God is immeasurably beyond us, in all/omni: Loving~Present~Knowing~Creating~Seeing~Hearing~Powerful eternally...
thus of course God's play-ground universe has been, and continues, exponentially increasing... & faster...

Enjoy! yourself in your magnificent! learnings
.

Legion.As.One · Apr 26, 2009

If an artist has a soul, and your god is an artist. Isn't he human?
Isn't art an opinion?
Did god ust decide one day, in a place of non-existance and no time, that he would create a universe?

I find this extremely hard to believe.

Tenka · Apr 26, 2009

tansy said:
Yes, I can sympathise with that viewpoint, and I don't think that we have the whole answer to it, but probably better not get into all that on this thread

Sure, nice talking with you.

Naraoia · Apr 26, 2009

tansy said:
Well, no I don't think it does...see my reply to Wiccanchild.

Ah, I see your point now. For my part, I talk to all kinds of creatures, so I probably wouldn't mind having to face Tiktaalik I can see why that idea feels weird, though. You can talk to a fish, but it's difficult to have an intelligent conversation with one

Maybe I should ask a different question.

What makes us human...what maks us different from other creatures?

What makes us different?

I think that's one of the most difficult questions you can ask. Things that we thought were unique to humans - language, self-awareness, morality etc. - turn out to be present, or at least have roots, in other animals. That's the problem with evolution, I guess: life is a continuum, and complex things don't just appear out of nowhere.

I think one could view "humanness" as a "critical mass" phenomenon: the change in the abilities that make it up is continuous, but when they reach a threshold level, there is an explosion of more abilities and behaviours that they make possible. Maybe there is more than one threshold.

And maybe that idea is totally wrong, since I came up with it about two minutes ago

Though I suppose that an atheist would say that we are just more evolved in some respects than other animals - but by the same token, I suppose one could say that different creatures are more highly evolved in other respects.
Actually, I've just realised, I don't think one can even talk about being more, or less evolved. Presumably, all creatures are "made" to fit their environment.

Exactly.

You can talk about things that are more "evolved" (though that's not the word a scientist would use) in a sense. Sometimes, a lineage shows a clear long-term trend; getting bigger brains is (was?) one in our own. It's just that there is no absolute sense in which carrying a trend further makes a creature better than its predecessors, and, of course, every adaptation is only an adaptation under some circumstances.

Legion.As.One said:
If an artist has a soul, and your god is an artist. Isn't he human?
Isn't art an opinion?

Who said God can't have an opinion?

Did god ust decide one day, in a place of non-existance and no time, that he would create a universe?

I find this extremely hard to believe.

If God is an artist, I can believe anything

Legion.As.One · Apr 27, 2009

me likes the way you think, Naraoia

tansy · Apr 27, 2009

Legion.As.One said:
If an artist has a soul, and your god is an artist. Isn't he human?[/color]
Isn't art an opinion?

No....it's rather that we get our artistic abilities and appreciation from God

And, yes, I would say that art is an opinion....what's art to one person, isnt to another

Did god ust decide one day, in a place of non-existance and no time, that he would create a universe?

I find this extremely hard to believe

Hm, yes, interesting question...I've also wondered about that. The only thing I can think is that, as He lives outside of time, then He didnt exactly "one day" decide to create the universe. It's certsinly hard for us to think of those sorts of things from our own points of reference.
Maybe, in Eternity, we will be able to grasp more things....but then, I'm not sure that we'll ever be able to fully understand things from God's perspective.

.

.

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