Creation and atheists

Wiccan_Child · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
So basically all you atheists would say that, if indeed there is a God AND He created the universe etc, He has done it through evolution...or would ANY of you say that there is an (outside) possibility that He created without evolution (other than the obvious natural selection that one sees actually nowadays, that is verifiable happening in front of our eyes, that we can actually test).

Obviously there's that possibility. It's possible, however remotely, that God created everything. But everything looks exactly like we'd expect it to look if it developed naturally by mundane phenomena (evolution, stellar aggregation, etc).

So God could have poofed everything into existence, as is, 6000 years ago. But since the universe screams of a more natural and gradual process, is that not the more likely method by which God worked? He's a stickler for free will, after all...

Tinker Grey · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
...or would ANY of you say that there is an (outside) possibility that He created without evolution

No. Not if this god is any god mankind has ever worshiped. OK. I take it back. If Loki, the trickster god, created the world so that it looked like evolution explained life, that would be plausible.

But the god of the monotheistic religions? No.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
Obviously there's that possibility. It's possible, however remotely, that God created everything. But everything looks exactly like we'd expect it to look if it developed naturally by mundane phenomena (evolution, stellar aggregation, etc).

So God could have poofed everything into existence, as is, 6000 years ago. But since the universe screams of a more natural and gradual process, is that not the more likely method by which God worked? He's a stickler for free will, after all...

Well, I don't necessarily believe that God created everything only 6000 years ago...I don't think one necessarily has to work with that scenario.
It seems to me that the earth, sun, planets etc. came into being from basic elements...hydrogen etc (or stuff even more basic than that).
So, I tend to think that God created in the first place the minimum "stuff" (whatever that might be - and I don't think even scientists yet know all about all of that), so that that sort of naturally erupted into the universe, because of the energy and chemical processes within it. How long that took, I don't know.
As for biological evolution, personally I'm not sure, though of course, as even the Bible says, we're made from the "dust" of the earth.
Frankly, apart from any other consideration, I don't much fancy my great great great etc grandparents, being in effect, less than human. Imagine if one had a photo or painting gallery of all one's ancestors going from now all the way back a\nd back, and there is your greatgreat etc auntie Jenny or whoever, who if you could meet her now, would be totally unrecognizable as human, let alone someone you could communicate with.
I know that that is purely from a sentiment level...but it just doesn't make sense to me - i do know that is not a scientific viewpoint, and my feelings doesn't really come into it - but did God really intend for us to have less than human ancestors? As I beleive in God, evolution for various reasons, doesnt make sense...then again, there are a few difficulties with the Creationist viewpoint, though I think, fewer than might appear at first sight. But, of course, I'm looking at it from a different angle.
If God DID create through evolution, then who am I to argue...I'm just not yet fully convinced.

Naraoia · Apr 25, 2009

View it as "different", not as "less", and the problem automatically disappears

Wiccan_Child · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
Well, I don't necessarily believe that God created everything only 6000 years ago...I don't think one necessarily has to work with that scenario.
It seems to me that the earth, sun, planets etc. came into being from basic elements...hydrogen etc (or stuff even more basic than that).
So, I tend to think that God created in the first place the minimum "stuff" (whatever that might be - and I don't think even scientists yet know all about all of that), so that that sort of naturally erupted into the universe, because of the energy and chemical processes within it. How long that took, I don't know.

That sounds like the Big Bang theory: everything (including spacetime) was condensed in one small point, which has since been expanding over 13.5 billion years. The 'stuff' would be the most primordial things.

And yes, there's things more fundamental than Hydrogen: it's made up of an electron and a proton, and the latter is made up of two up-quarks, a down-quark, and some gluons. Gluons, quarks, and electrons, are thought to be fundamental, point-like particles.

tansy said:
As for biological evolution, personally I'm not sure, though of course, as even the Bible says, we're made from the "dust" of the earth.
Frankly, apart from any other consideration, I don't much fancy my great great great etc grandparents, being in effect, less than human. Imagine if one had a photo or painting gallery of all one's ancestors going from now all the way back a\nd back, and there is your greatgreat etc auntie Jenny or whoever, who if you could meet her now, would be totally unrecognizable as human, let alone someone you could communicate with.

Not to sound rude, but so what? Would that really be so bad? Remember that this is thousands of generations back; it's not like your great-aunt Pauline is suddenly transformed into a Gibbon .

tansy said:
I know that that is purely from a sentiment level...but it just doesn't make sense to me - i do know that is not a scientific viewpoint, and my feelings doesn't really come into it - but did God really intend for us to have less than human ancestors?

'Less' implies that we are 'better'. There are simply organisms.

What if God wanted life to evolve naturally, to learn to love God without any help from him (e.g., by poofing humans into existence, fully formed)?

Why wouldn't God want us to be the latest in a long, long line of ancestors?

tansy said:
As I beleive in God, evolution for various reasons, doesnt make sense...then again, there are a few difficulties with the Creationist viewpoint, though I think, fewer than might appear at first sight. But, of course, I'm looking at it from a different angle.
If God DID create through evolution, then who am I to argue...I'm just not yet fully convinced.

Well, there's plenty of resources out there. Wikipedia, TalkOrigins, etc, are all good places to read up.

Of course, asking questions to real, living people can't hurt .

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
Not to sound rude, but so what? Would that really be so bad? Remember that this is thousands of generations back; it's not like your great-aunt Pauline is suddenly transformed into a Gibbon .

Click to expand...

Well, seeing that I believe that one day we will meet all or many of our ancestors, I'm not sure that I would relate in quite the same way to a non-human or nearly human, as I would to a human.
I mean we can relate to all kinds of animals in varying degrees, but none of them in quite the same way as a human....that is part of the difficulty for me.
Of course, IF we evolved from "lesser" creatures, then I have to think something like once we were ready in whatever way, then God made us capable of becoming sons of God..,,something like that may be possible, but it still doesn't make much sense to me.
I would discuss this in the theistic evolution section, but one can only do that if one has that down as one's O of Life view. Neither can I discuss it in the Creationist section for the same reason. I suppose I'd have to go to the Cre and Ev section.

'

Less' implies that we are 'better'. There are simply organisms.

Click to expand...

I wasnt necessarily implying that we were better than other creatures, merely that anything other than us, is not human...maybe I should have said I don't like the idea of non-human ancestors

What if God wanted life to evolve naturally, to learn to love God without any help from him (e.g., by poofing humans into existence, fully formed)?

Click to expand...

Well. even if He'd wanted to do it that way, we would still have had to be in a position to relate to him

Why wouldn't God want us to be the latest in a long, long line of ancestors?

Click to expand...

Maybe He did....it just doesn't, at the moment, make sense to me

Well, there's plenty of resources out there. Wikipedia, TalkOrigins, etc, are all good places to read up.

Of course, asking questions to real, living people can't hurt

Click to expand...

Yes, maybe I'll have to look on TalkOrigins or something .

.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Naraoia said:
View it as "different", not as "less", and the problem automatically disappears

Well, no I don't think it does...see my reply to Wiccanchild.

Maybe I should ask a different question.

What makes us human...what maks us different from other creatures?
Though I suppose that an atheist would say that we are just more evolved in some respects than other animals - but by the same token, I suppose one could say that different creatures are more highly evolved in other respects.
Actually, I've just realised, I don't think one can even talk about being more, or less evolved. Presumably, all creatures are "made" to fit their environment.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
Well, seeing that I believe that one day we will meet all or many of our ancestors, I'm not sure that I would relate in quite the same way to a non-human or nearly human, as I would to a human.
I mean we can relate to all kinds of animals in varying degrees, but none of them in quite the same way as a human....that is part of the difficulty for me.

I think the biggest challenge is changing your idea of what constitutes a human. Things area rarely as black-and-white as we'd like.

What blew my mind was when I learned that the human body contains 3 trillion human cells, and 50-100 trillion bacterial cells! Are we humans infested with bacteria, or a bacterial colony with a human infestation?

tansy said:
Of course, IF we evolved from "lesser" creatures, then I have to think something like once we were ready in whatever way, then God made us capable of becoming sons of God..,,something like that may be possible, but it still doesn't make much sense to me.

Theistic evolutionists tend to think that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans in a literal sense, but rather that God chose them two to be the first humans endowed with a soul, to be put in communion with God. There were other humans around, but only they and their descendants had a soul. By virtue of population dynamics, within a few generations, all humans were descended from Adam and/or Eve, and thus had a soul.

But any non-literal interpretation of Genesis would count as theistic evolution.

tansy said:
I would discuss this in the theistic evolution section, but one can only do that if one has that down as one's O of Life view. Neither can I discuss it in the Creationist section for the same reason. I suppose I'd have to go to the Cre and Ev section.

You could always change your life view to theistic evolution; that you're questioning should be enough.

tansy said:
I wasnt necessarily implying that we were better than other creatures, merely that anything other than us, is not human...maybe I should have said I don't like the idea of non-human ancestors

I rather like the idea. I like the whole "we're all connected, everything's equal" thing, rather than "we're lofty and exalted".

Wiccan_Child · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
Well, no I don't think it does...see my reply to Wiccanchild.

Maybe I should ask a different question.

What makes us human...what maks us different from other creatures?
Though I suppose that an atheist would say that we are just more evolved in some respects than other animals - but by the same token, I suppose one could say that different creatures are more highly evolved in other respects.
Actually, I've just realised, I don't think one can even talk about being more, or less evolved. Presumably, all creatures are "made" to fit their environment.

Now you get it .

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
I think the biggest challenge is changing your idea of what constitutes a human. Things area rarely as black-and-white as we'd like.

What blew my mind was when I learned that the human body contains 3 trillion human cells, and 50-100 trillion bacterial cells! Are we humans infested with bacteria, or a bacterial colony with a human infestation?

Click to expand...

Funnily enough, it was trying to think about stuff like this, that partly made me wonder in the first place if God did actually exist (before I became a Christain). Of course, I believe that what makes us different, or human, as opposed to any other creature, is that God created ust to have a particular relationship with Him, and also to have dominion over the earth and other creatures (that's have dominion, not dominate).
Which is an awesome responsibility when one thinks about it (and of course, we've not exactly done a good job)

Theistic evolutionists tend to think that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans in a literal sense, but rather that God chose them two to be the first humans endowed with a soul, to be put in communion with God. There were other humans around, but only they and their descendants had a soul. By virtue of population dynamics, within a few generations, all humans were descended from Adam and/or Eve, and thus had a soul.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the only possibility I can think of, assuming God used evolution.
It just doesn't quite seem right to me, though...I can't even explain exactly why..not without a great deal of thought, anyhow.
That's not to say, though, that that's not correct.

dI rather like the idea. I like the whole "we're all connected, everything's equal" thing, rather than "we're lofty and exalte"

Click to expand...

Well, I'd say that the only thing that makes us equal is that we're all created and come from universal elements.
And as human beings we are supposed to take care of our environment and also all living creatures (as well as each other, of course). This, I think, is a mandate from God. And we're supposed to be humble

.

.

Tenka · Apr 25, 2009

Tansy said:
So basically all you atheists would say that, if indeed there is a God AND He created the universe etc, He has done it through evolution...or would ANY of you say that there is an (outside) possibility that He created without evolution (other than the obvious natural selection that one sees actually nowadays, that is verifiable happening in front of our eyes, that we can actually test).

I don't see a lot of micro management happening, so I'd be more inclined to push God's involvement right way back if it had to go somewhere.
I can't really think of a good reason God needs to interact with the physical world at all.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Tenka said:
I don't see a lot of micro management happening, so I'd be more inclined to push God's involvement right way back if it had to go somewhere.
I can't really think of a good reason God needs to interact with the physical world at all.

So then, you would reckon that if God created the universe, He could then just leave it to carry on by itself according to the physical laws He had put in place, as it were.? Yes, I think that could be a possibility, only I haven.t thought it through properly yet.
The only thing is, that from my POV, if nothing else, Jesus DID do some micro-management whilst He was on earth re some of the miracles (water turning into wine etc).
Which means that it's quite possible that God is continually (or sometimes), micro-managing the universe, only without its being obvious to us.

Tenka · Apr 25, 2009

Tansy said:
Which means that it's quite possible that God is continually (or sometimes), micro-managing the universe, only without its being obvious to us.

Yes it would definitely be possible, but to me that kind of God seems petty, finite and arbitrary.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Tenka said:
Yes it would definitely be possible, but to me that kind of God seems petty, finite and arbitrary.

Why's that? Well, I can see why you think that would make Him arbitrary and maybe petty (that is, in relation to miracles...but not the maintenance or tweaking of the general workings of the universe in order to sustain it or form it as he wishes).
But I don't see why that would make Him finite?

Tenka · Apr 25, 2009

tansy said:
Why's that? Well, I can see why you think that would make Him arbitrary and maybe petty (that is, in relation to miracles...but not the maintenance or tweaking of the general workings of the universe in order to sustain it or form it as he wishes).
But I don't see why that would make Him finite?

Well, to me it seems that if God needs to be tweaking then either he couldn't foresee the issue or couldn't plan well enough for it at the beginning to do without it. Or God changed his mind.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Tenka said:
Well, to me it seems that if God needs to be tweaking then either he couldn't foresee the issue or couldn't plan well enough for it at the beginning to do without it. Or God changed his mind.

Good point..I see what you mean now, and actually I dothink that maybe when he set everything off, He did it in such a way that everything would work as He wanted...however, I'm still thinking a lot of things through.

Hespera · Apr 25, 2009

If God exists outside time and can see all points in time simultaneously, i hardly see how he'd need to hop in and tweak anything.

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Hespera said:
If God exists outside time and can see all points in time simultaneously, i hardly see how he'd need to hop in and tweak anything.

Very good point...I'll have to think about that. Of course, I still think he might tweak stuff if a miracle is needed

Legion.As.One · Apr 25, 2009

The thought of a god existing is tearing holes in my logical mind.
How can something create the universe, when it has no place to exist?

tansy · Apr 25, 2009

Legion.As.One said:
The thought of a god existing is tearing holes in my logical mind.
How can something create the universe, when it has no place to exist?

Yes, I know, it does one's head in, doesn't it? LOL
I've sometimes wondered that myself.
Then again, lots of things don't seem to be logical, until one finds the answer.
I'm sure it's all perfectly logical to God.

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