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So are you suggesting a historian would know nothing about existence and meaning? And a musician knows nothing about the physical universe? And an uneducated farmer is absolutely dumb?
This question is basically aimed at atheists.
I don't know if this would be difficult for you to imagine...but, if you could take as a hypothisis that God actually DOES exist, and that He DID create everythign at some point in the past (or at least the MAKINGS of everything, if you understand what I mean), how would you then approach the question of evolution?
(I amnot taking sides on this discussion, only that as a Christian, I believe God DID create everything, am just not sure HOW...I understand natural selection, but am stillunsure about the rest)
Do you think your view of evolution might change, or how do you think you might reconcile the Scriptural account with science?
I know there are plenty of theistic evolutionists who do this, but wondered if any atheist could imagine doing it (particularly I know that many of you have read Genesis and so forth).
Glad to see you back, Juv. This section needs more comic relief.
In response to the original question: It's easy to describe how to do. We take what we know, from experience, god does when he is creating. Then we extrapolate what he was likely to do with evolution.
The problem is there is nothing we know, from experience, about how god creates. Every single aspect of the world we have discovered so far can be traced back and understood through natural processess... which means if God did do any creating, he had to have created the processes themselves. And if god created the universe by putting these natural laws in place and letting the universe grow naturally- guess what, evolution is one of the results of that. So in the end it still comes back to evolution being exactly what it's like today.
The only alternative is to believe what the bible says about creation, and not what the creation says about itself, and that's just messy.
.Light requires a light source. Granted, certain gases and other elements will produce light when energy passes through them (think florescent bulbs or heated metals)... but light still has to have a source.
Yes (forgive me for being ignorant about these things), but that's the point I'm trying to make. If gases can produce light under certain circumstances, then I'm saying that maybe light could have existed before the sun, or maybe stars existed, due to the gases and whatever else was around at the time..is that a possibility?
As for "fitting" science into the story of creation... why would you want or need to? If your faith is dependant on cooberating evidence in the physical world, then you've reduced your creator to little more than a god-of-the-gaps... and you've actually set yourself up for disappointment as those gaps begin to get smaller and smaller.
Well, actually I would contend that God HAS given us corroboerating evidence in the physical world..but that would get us off into a whole other discussion, which I don't want to pursue at the moment.
I'm merely trying to understand things from other perspectives.
l world is supplemented by the supernatural, you are doing yourself an equaFrom the other side of things, if your understanding of the physical disservice by ceasing to look for answers in areas where you have decided the supernatural provides the explanation.
If you need or want your faith... have it. Just don't try to reconcile it with actual evidence because you will force yourself to compromise somewhere.
Ah, well, I have an inquisitive nature, and like to check out what I can...hence my asking these questions. I don't like to accept things on face value..although in practice in everyday life I have to, as I haven't got the time or knowledge to test evrything out..for example I'm not goint to personally test whether or not Ill get electocuted if I stick my finger on a live wire! I take other people's word and experience on that!
Yes, that's a fair enough answer....but do you think that he might have actually so set those laws that He would have known how evrything would have evolved (that is on the assumption that He does exist and did create those laws). And also based on the fact that we don't know everything about how the universe functions. What I'm trying to say is, on an extremely simple level, but it's the first example that comes to mind...if we set up loads of dominoes (I've seen programmes where they do this) in a certain pattern, with different colours and things - when they push the forst dominoe, they all move, and end up making a giant picture. Do you think that God could have done something limke this, but obviously on a vastly more complex scale?
Um... not to sound strange here... but isn't one of the basic foundations of your faith the belief in an omniscient god?
Yes (forgive me for being ignorant about these things), but that's the point I'm trying to make. If gases can produce light under certain circumstances, then I'm saying that maybe light could have existed before the sun, or maybe stars existed, due to the gases and whatever else was around at the time..is that a possibility?
Well, actually I would contend that God HAS given us corroboerating evidence in the physical world..but that would get us off into a whole other discussion, which I don't want to pursue at the moment.
I'm merely trying to understand things from other perspectives.
Ah, well, I have an inquisitive nature, and like to check out what I can...hence my asking these questions. I don't like to accept things on face value..although in practice in everyday life I have to, as I haven't got the time or knowledge to test evrything out..for example I'm not goint to personally test whether or not Ill get electocuted if I stick my finger on a live wire! I take other people's word and experience on that!
Yes, of course...so I take it that you agree, that given an omniscient God, He could have put the laws of the universe in place in such a way, that everything evolved in His pre-ordained way, so that He knew how everything would pan out?
Well sure... but why stop there? Why not say that he set the basic laws and guided everything directly so that it turned out the way he wanted?
Or, going the other direction, why not say that he had nothing to do with the basic physical laws of the universe, and say that he simply popped a single bit of matter into a void, and all of the physical laws that resulted occured so completely naturally?
It's impossible to draw the line with making it completely subjective.
Tansy, I actually like you. I dig how inquisitive you are. I hope you continue to ask these questions... but I hope you realize that the closer you get to answers, the fewer gaps you'll find to squeeze god into.
I like reading your posts too,Tansy. You make me think of some of the smart interesting Christians that I know here at the U! I go to their church sometimes, and I like hearing what they have to say. Serious discussions....I like that. I dont get at all frustrated with that sort of person, or that kind of thinking.
Thank you, HesperaI like reading your posts too,Tansy. You make me think of some of the smart interesting Christians that I know here at the U! I go to their church sometimes, and I like hearing what they have to say. Serious discussions....I like that. I dont get at all frustrated with that sort of person, or that kind of thinking.
Nice little discussion - good OP, Tansy.
When I was a Christian, it was within the mainstream Canadian church I was brought up with, and they were not what we call 'creationists' - I suppose they were/are theistic evolutionists, although the term wasn't around at the time.
So when I thought about the idea of God the Creator it was in terms of a being who created and manipulated the physical stuff of the universe to suit its desires, and that anything science discovered about the physical universe was just discovering the processes and effects of that original manipulation, so there was no conflict - whatever science discovered was likely true.
The idea of taking Genesis literally was always something I considered naive and simplistic. Genesis is so obviously, to me, a poetic and imaginary tale of beginnings, an introduction to the idea of God as the underlying First Cause.
This question is basically aimed at atheists.
I don't know if this would be difficult for you to imagine...but, if you could take as a hypothisis that God actually DOES exist, and that He DID create everythign at some point in the past (or at least the MAKINGS of everything, if you understand what I mean), how would you then approach the question of evolution?
(I amnot taking sides on this discussion, only that as a Christian, I believe God DID create everything, am just not sure HOW...I understand natural selection, but am stillunsure about the rest)
Do you think your view of evolution might change, or how do you think you might reconcile the Scriptural account with science?
I know there are plenty of theistic evolutionists who do this, but wondered if any atheist could imagine doing it (particularly I know that many of you have read Genesis and so forth).
Why do you think that? You definitely have the right attitude...as I say, I wouldn't really have been able to do the science)
As for a dishonest god, that way lies madness
.If there obviously was a god (however that might be proven), then I'd have to believe what he/she/it said about the world. That's assuming an honest and all-knowing god, of course
Well said..but of course, a lot depends on the interpretation of certain things. Some stuf in the Bible is straightforward, and some not.
And whether or not there is a god, there is always the physical world. Assuming an honest god again, I'd still have to conform my views to reality.
Agreed..but even then..we can't always see the whole of reality, only bits of it..although we see more and more of it, what with microscopes, telescopes etc etc. I wonder if we'll ever know everything about everything...there always is more to discover
As for a dishonest god, that way lies madness
Yep...none of us would stand a chance, if He were dishonest!
Why do you think that? You definitely have the right attitude
Well, for a start, I was always lousy at maths..somehow got left behind in the basics at ayoung age, so, of course, had great difficulty at a later stage..so really that puts physics out of the question. It wasn't 'til I was married that I even began to understand how algebra was used. At school, I couldn't understand how you could add or multiply letters!!! Nobody ever explained how algebra was actually applied.
I always got on better with geometry, because you could see the application. Later in life, I did do a bit more maths, and once things were explained properly to me, a lot more started falling into place, and I actually think it could be fun.
I think, maybe it was the way science was taught..I suppose they had to cover certain things in the syllabus, and I'm not sure they would have had much time for questioning.
I think the way my mind works, would have sent my teachers into despair!
For example..take a chemistry experiment - mixing two chemicals together, and they go poof! or change colour , or whatever.
Well, we'd write out what we did and the conclusion, also, of course, we'd have a control. But that (so far as I remember],was as far as it went.
But:
What applications would that have?
WHY do those chemicals react like that?
What was their atomic make-up?
Where does one get those chemicals from (I mean, apart from the suppliers)
How would one extract those chemicals?
How would one build the equipment to exrtact the chemicals?
How does one store them safely?
And so on an so forth.
I expect the kids who went on to do O and A Level Science, would have gone into all those sorts of things..but I never got that far LOL
Oh, another thing..first year phusics was a doddle..the teachers were surprised I got a good mark..but it was all stuff one just observed in everyday life...fulcrums and stuff. Then, second or third year physics we did stuff with ripple tanks...still don't know why..again, stuff one observed in everyday life - but they never told us, or got ust to think about how knowledge about ripples or waves could actuall be USED.
I'm not saying that EVERYthing we did was just like that..for example we did a bit about electical currents and resistors and stuff..but again, I'd more or less learnt that really basic stuff from my elder brother , who was really into home-made radios and things.
I like to think around a subject, and approach it from different angles...I do drive people mad...sometimes they might say I'm not thinking logically - but they don't understand that I'm simply approaching something (whatever the subject) in a kind of roundabout way, as I find that if I look at things ind different ways, even if they're not the best, quickest, or right ways, then ultimately I'll have learnt a lot more on the way.
So, anyhow, I went onto do languages, and art, history and geography...
...you come to a fork in the road. In one direction is a tribe of cannibals who always lie, in the other direction is a peaceful tribe who always tell the truth. A member of each tribe is at the fork, but you don't know which tribe either one belongs to.....
AHA!!!!!!.......That's where one needs to ask God for wisdom and discernment...
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