Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (3)

[TheReasoner]

Sheild,(sigh)
If that is what being saved is to you I don't even know what to say.

I would like to say that yelling Hell Fire and Brimstone at the "Pagans" of Celtic Ireland would have gotten St. Patrick killed pretty quick and as that little island was a bastion to Christianity during the "Dark Ages" I can be pretty confidant in saying he did not go around telling the chieftains of Ireland they were going to BURN IN HELL!

You preach a Gospel of intolerance. You preach a gospel of damnation. You preach a gospel of separatism.

The whole bible tells a central story of how God wanted a relationship with mankind. That is why we are here. He is our "Father". Just as I love to be with my family so much more God wants to be with his family. "US"
We (mankind) tend to turn our back on him and sometimes chose not to listen to him. The same thing happens in every family. He (God) has always chosen to still seek to have a relationship with us. He is a better Dad than a lot of the earthly ones. He sent his Prophets to teach us more about himself so we could have a better relationship. Just like I tell my kids stories of my life. He sent his Law to teach us right from wrong and to keep us safe. Just like I tell my kids right from wrong and not to eat yellow snow. He sent himself to pay the price for my own wrong doings. Just like I would lay down my life to save any one of my children. That is the central story of the Bible.

Its not about "religion" its about a relationship!

Just because my child breaks my rules am I going to STRIKE HIM DOWN? Not hardly. If what they did deserves punishment then they will be punished, if not then it is a learning lesson for them. If they do get punished it is not done because I HATE them and can not be in their presence. It is because I love them and want them to be a better person or safe or make a better decision etc...
If I as a fallen man can do this why would God be less?

The God you preach is all punishment and torture and is stark and unbending. There is no mercy, no kindness ,no love in your God. This God you preach; if he were a human father would be the worst kind of child beater there is. He would punch a 2 year old in the face for stealing a cookie, he would starve his child for not doing what he said the first time, he would let his child bleed to death for playing with a knife he told them not to touch. If this is God than I want NO part of him!

I for one am glad this is NOT my God!

Echoed.

 

[GrayCat]

Shadow, please preach THE LOVE OF GOD. Don't stop preaching HIS love. The heathen need to know about HIS love.

I got the power and wrath covered.

SOLA GRATIA.

In all seriousness, Shield, I do know about the love of God. I've heard of it on several forums, not to mention in real life.

But my Goddess shows love as well. I find love, among many other things, in my spirituality and in all Nature around me. Love is not unique to your spirituality.

 

[GrayCat]

Here is a better one; Saved.

Means to be saved from GOD'S eternal wrath. Believe me, you want to get saved!!!

I was just thinking about this, Shield.

All explanations of "saved" that i have heard from Christians entail that it means to be forgiven of your sins and saved by Jesus's love from original sin/sinful nature of Humans.

Yet here, what you said is a definition of salvation that i have never heard before. Is it unique to Calvinism? What are your thoughts on the other definition of salvation that i posted in my paragraph above?

 

[Zeromark]

Long time Lurker, first time poster.
Forgive me if this hasn't been addressed, but I'm curious to two matters, Shield;

First, you have claimed to study at a Bible College, but failed to specify where, or to your area of expertise. Would you mind clearing either of those points?

Second, You have made it quite clear how scientific inquriy would progress within this theoretical nation of yours, but what I am curious is to how Theological Inquiry would proceed? And of course, I am talking of theology on the academic level; modern peer-reviewed theology that is based in both philosophy and historical research.

Much of modern theology has come from challenging the status quo, to question long held traditions and beliefs in one doctrine or another, in an effort to understand the inherently unknowable, the Divine. The kind of state you are suggesting about creating seems less that ideal for modern Theology to flourish.

And before you ask, my own theological credentials are that I have a Bachelor of Arts in theological studies from one of the Jesuit Universities; my personal expertise is with hermeneutics and exegesis of the Pauline/DeuteroPauline Letters, and a few of the Psalms, but I do not consider myself to be an expert by any means.

Lastly, to your use of capital punishment,
"Blessed are the merciful..."

 

[tulc]

Welcome to CF Zeromark!
tulc(hope you're blessed by your time here!)

 

[dlamberth]

Shadow, I know you mean well. I know that you think that all I preach is wrath. However, I do try to speak about love. However I always frame it with discipline and power.

Shadow I want to bring out the Power and love through discipline of GOD. I want people to remember that GOD does not play games with humans.

Shadow, we have all been filled with and drowned in words of GOD'S love. That is all that most will talk about.

Shadow, Question:

Q. Did GOD kill every human being alive with the flood (save Noah and family) or did HE not?

Q. Did GOD kill 40,000 human beings in Korah's rebellion?

Q. What happened to Pharaoh's army?

Are you getting this? I want to make sure that all that read are aware of the Power and Wrath of GOD. HE is filled with love; however, HE will always smack the taste out of your mouth if you get buck wild.

The heathen need to know that there will be hell to pay; literally.

Preach the LOVE OF GOD!!! PLEASE!

YOU BE GOOD COP, I'LL BE BAD COP! The fact of the matter is that GOD is love and is the most loving being in and outside of the universe. HE also is the most powerful being ever. HE also will cast human beings into the Lake of Fire!

Shadow, please preach THE LOVE OF GOD. Don't stop preaching HIS love. The heathen need to know about HIS love.

I got the power and wrath covered.

SOLA GRATIA.

In other words, your God is like an abusive father running terror over his family all the while claiming that we are being smacked against the wall out of His love for us. And you Shield are like the abused child justifying his father's abuse by saying: "Dad is the power of the family. He's so powerful everything he does is right and just. Dad can do no wrong. I know he loves us because of how he abuses us".

"And...those who do not believe in my dad and his abuse, those people are evil" If they will not believe in my dad's abuse and love him like I do...Dad will smack them around real good too.



.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

In other words, your God is like an abusive father running terror over his family all the while claiming that we are being smacked against the wall out of His love for us. And you Shield are like the abused child justifying his father's abuse by saying: "Dad is the power of the family. He's so powerful everything he does is right and just. Dad can do no wrong. I know he loves us because of how he abuses us".

"And...those who do not believe in my dad and his abuse, those people are evil" If they will not believe in my dad's abuse and love him like I do...Dad will smack them around real good too.



.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 While Israel was staying in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the Lord's anger burned against them. 4 The Lord said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord's fierce anger may turn away from Israel." 5 So Moses said to Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 6 Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them--through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000. 10 The Lord said to Moses, 11 "Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites." --Numbers 25

Dlam, please explain to me what happened here in this passage? Please remember that God; Father, Son, Holy Spirit killed 24,000 people here. Also remember that Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron turned GOD'S anger away from Israel.

Was Phinehas right in shoving that spear through those two people???

Waiting...
[/FONT]

 

[Nathan Poe]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Was Phinehas right in shoving that spear through those two people???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Waiting...[/FONT]

Answering... Absolutely not. He was a complete and utter loon.

You choose your role models poorly, Shield.

 

[TheReasoner]

Answering... Absolutely not. He was a complete and utter loon.

You choose your role models poorly, Shield.

Well, you know what they say, asinus asinum fricat...

Though I think when Shield is looking at role models in the bible he removes compassion, love, friendliness, patience, brotherhood and hope while adding a whole lot of vengeance and hatred. I do not recognize the god he is talking about. What Shield is talking about is clearly more from his hatred than it is from Christianity. I can understand it though, what with him being abused as a kid and all. But that doesn't justify it. Nor does it make it any less insane.

 

[GrayCat]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

Waiting...
[/FONT]

I'm waiting too.

For you to answer the question about Salvation that i asked you a few posts ago.


Thanks.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Long time Lurker, first time poster.
Forgive me if this hasn't been addressed, but I'm curious to two matters, Shield;

First, you have claimed to study at a Bible College, but failed to specify where, or to your area of expertise. Would you mind clearing either of those points?

Second, You have made it quite clear how scientific inquriy would progress within this theoretical nation of yours, but what I am curious is to how Theological Inquiry would proceed? And of course, I am talking of theology on the academic level; modern peer-reviewed theology that is based in both philosophy and historical research.

Much of modern theology has come from challenging the status quo, to question long held traditions and beliefs in one doctrine or another, in an effort to understand the inherently unknowable, the Divine. The kind of state you are suggesting about creating seems less that ideal for modern Theology to flourish.

And before you ask, my own theological credentials are that I have a Bachelor of Arts in theological studies from one of the Jesuit Universities; my personal expertise is with hermeneutics and exegesis of the Pauline/DeuteroPauline Letters, and a few of the Psalms, but I do not consider myself to be an expert by any means.

Lastly, to your use of capital punishment,
"Blessed are the merciful..."

Zeormark, howdy.

I graduated from Trinity Bible College in Sacramento CA.

Zero, I am not a big fan of challenging theology for the sake of challenging. We know enough about GOD to understand that HE is holy. HE is completely holy, and that HE hates sin. HE really really hates it.

We can challenge that all we want, but we will never change GOD, and HIS holiness. Since you are a man of exegesis you know this to be true. You know that you must stay true to the text.

Zeromark, as a man of exegesis do you agree that GOD gave the government the right to kill evil doers?

Here is our text:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. Romans 13

Awaiting your insights.

SOLA DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

 

[tulc]

Zeormark, howdy.

I graduated from Trinity Bible College in Sacramento CA.

Zero, I am not a big fan of challenging theology for the sake of challenging. We know enough about GOD to understand that HE is holy. HE is completely holy, and that HE hates sin. HE really really hates it.

We can challenge that all we want, but we will never change GOD, and HIS holiness. Since you are a man of exegesis you know this to be true. You know that you must stay true to the text.

Zeromark, as a man of exegesis do you agree that GOD gave the government the right to kill evil doers?

Here is our text:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. Romans 13

Awaiting your insights.

SOLA DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

hmmm so you supported Saddam Hussein? He was head of the government
of Iraq and (by your theology) placed there by God?
tulc(oops! another question you've never really answered)

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Well, you know what they say, asinus asinum fricat...

Though I think when Shield is looking at role models in the bible he removes compassion, love, friendliness, patience, brotherhood and hope while adding a whole lot of vengeance and hatred. I do not recognize the god he is talking about. What Shield is talking about is clearly more from his hatred than it is from Christianity. I can understand it though, what with him being abused as a kid and all. But that doesn't justify it. Nor does it make it any less insane.

So GOD and Phinehas are both insane. GOD is insane for killing the 24,000 and Phinehas is insane for killing the two???

Just to let you know, Phinehas is an awesome role model. He cared about the name and holiness of GOD. He also cared about his fellow Israelites, and turning the wrath of GOD away from them.

Your hatred of him means nothing to GOD.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

 

[GrayCat]

Your hatred of him means nothing to GOD.

O rly?


Then how come apparently if you hate God, you go to hell?


Seems like God would have to be a little ticked off to do that.

 

[Zeromark]

Zero, I am not a big fan of challenging theology for the sake of challenging. We know enough about GOD to understand that HE is holy. HE is completely holy, and that HE hates sin. HE really really hates it.

Interesting. Yes, what you say is true, we do know enough about God to know his presence, to know that he is holy, and that he desires us to follow in his footsteps. But,to borrow from the realm of Philosophy, the very second we as human beings stop asking questions, to stop challenging the world around us, to be merely satisfied with the status quo, is the second we stop being human. To be animal is to be content with the world around us. To be human is to embrace wonder, to be curious and to have the desire to understand the world around us, as well as the next.

We can challenge that all we want, but we will never change GOD, and HIS holiness. Since you are a man of exegesis you know this to be true. You know that you must stay true to the text.

Yes, we have to respect the text. But we must seek to understand the text as well. That does involve asking ourselves and the historical data available to us, what were the writer's intentions? Their world view? In short, their human condition.

Zeromark, as a man of exegesis do you agree that GOD gave the government the right to kill evil doers?
Here is our text:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. Romans 13

Awaiting your insights.
SOLA DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

I'm assuming you're using the KJV? (I've got the NRSV in front of me, and it does not match, but that's not overly important in the long run.)

St. Paul does offer pretty good advice here; but I'm not so sure it can be completely applied to modern times. Paul, as well as most of the early church believed that they were the last generation before the return of Christ, so there would have been more urgency to call people to God than to worry about the choking Roman empire at the time of the letter's writing.

Upsetting the Roman government would not have been the wisest action, and for the very early church, probably suicidal. I would venture to guess that Paul meant for the early church in Rome to accept Roman authority for the time being, until the return of Christ.

However, the early church was already challenging the authority of the Sanhedrin back in Jerusalem; despite strict orders from the temple authorities, the early church continued to stress that Jesus was the messiah, and operate outside the Sanhedrin's authority. So, I would venture to say that it all depends on the context.

More towards the modern age, if there wasn't a little revolution now and then, we would still be under the grasp of the traditional Monarchies, and the American Revolution would have never happened. Civil rights would not exist. So in that respect, I do say it's good to challenge authority here and there.

As to the matter of the Death Penalty,
Well, you can go with the 5th commandment, you could go with the whole "Love your neighbor" ideal, but frankly, for me it comes down to my belief that God and God alone has the right to take human life away. I'm not saying I won't defend myself if physically attacked, but I see little evidence that capital punishment is ultimately for the better.

 

[dlamberth]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 While Israel was staying in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the Lord's anger burned against them. 4 The Lord said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord's fierce anger may turn away from Israel." 5 So Moses said to Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]6 Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them--through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000. 10 The Lord said to Moses, 11 "Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites." --Numbers 25[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Dlam, please explain to me what happened here in this passage? Please remember that God; Father, Son, Holy Spirit killed 24,000 people here. Also remember that Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron turned GOD'S anger away from Israel.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Was Phinehas right in shoving that spear through those two people???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Waiting...[/FONT]

The issue is not about Phinehas...it's about your God...who caused the deaths of the Israelites in the first place. You worship an abusive God. And just like a child of an abusive father, you will not acknowledge the abuse of your God. In truth, over and over we see you justify your God's abuse as good and holy. You than turn the attention away from your God's abuse by redirecting our attention to other matters, in this case, Phinehas.


.

 

[dlamberth]

So GOD and Phinehas are both insane. GOD is insane for killing the 24,000 and Phinehas is insane for killing the two???

If your God is going to kill that many people for the reasons given...I'd say that He has some REALLY serious issues He needs to deal with. Are there God shrinks up there in Heaven He could maybe see or something?

Just to let you know, Phinehas is an awesome role model. He cared about the name and holiness of GOD. He also cared about his fellow Israelites, and turning the wrath of GOD away from them.

Awesome role model?!? Just how far do we take the example of Phinehas? Should Christians start killing sinners to turn the wrath of God away from America?

.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So GOD and Phinehas are both insane. GOD is insane for killing the 24,000 and Phinehas is insane for killing the two???

You catch on fast, Shield.

Just to let you know, Phinehas is an awesome role model. He cared about the name and holiness of GOD. He also cared about his fellow Israelites, and turning the wrath of GOD away from them.

But he only killed two people -- it's goiong to take more than that to get God's attention.

Your hatred of him means nothing to GOD.

Your admiration of him means nothing, either.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

NON COMPOS MENTIS.

 

[ReverendDG]

So GOD and Phinehas are both insane. GOD is insane for killing the 24,000 and Phinehas is insane for killing the two???

yes, god is insane for killing people for not worshiping him anymore. i'd say phinehas is insane, the people didn't even get a trial or even be confronted, he just stabbed them in the back!

Just to let you know, Phinehas is an awesome role model. He cared about the name and holiness of GOD. He also cared about his fellow Israelites, and turning the wrath of GOD away from them.

killing a israelite, is caring about them?
the OT god is a savage, its his own problem that they turn away from him and to other gods.
i guess to you, murder is okay as long as its for god. what a sick and twisted outlook you have SoF
i think you would fit right in there with islamic terrorists just fine

Your hatred of him means nothing to GOD.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

i would think god would care if we hate him, why bother with loving anyone if you don't care what they think?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

The issue is not about Phinehas...it's about your God...who caused the deaths of the Israelites in the first place. You worship an abusive God. And just like a child of an abusive father, you will not acknowledge the abuse of your God. In truth, over and over we see you justify your God's abuse as good and holy. You than turn the attention away from your God's abuse by redirecting our attention to other matters, in this case, Phinehas.


.

Ok, I went over this before, but you are not getting this.

1. You are not a true actual son/daughter of GOD. No one is. There is only one (1) GOD. You are not Him. I am not Him. God uses the metaphorical term "son/ daughter" to convey a message of love; however, He is not saying that you are His actual physical literal son/ daughter.

We are creatures that He made. HE is the creator, we are the creatures. You are a creature. I am a creature. You and I are little created creatures that HE created; and that HE has all power and authority over.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE understand that the terms "son" and "daughter" are metaphorical terms just like "wings".

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. --Psalm 36

Is GOD now a big chicken??? No. Just like the "hand" of the Lord. GOD doesn't have a big 'hand'. HE is spirit. HE doesn't need a big 'hand'. These are anthropomorphic terms that GOD uses to convey a message to us that we can understand.

So please get past the 'Child Abuse' defense that you are using. Your weak 'child abuse' defense to justify your hatred of GOD does not hold up.
[/FONT]