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Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

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Nathan Poe

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if God hates sin, how come He made it?

He hates parts of His creation, and in essence, Hates part of Himself?

If

Oh, it gets better -- thanks to "The Fall," we have God (the creator), nature (His creation) and man (His own image) constantly at odds with each other in a never-ending three-way slugfest.

And the best thing the fundies hope for is that they'll get Raptured out of here just before God decides to flush this failed experiment once and for all.

Funny Religion!
 
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mpok1519

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Oh, it gets better -- thanks to "The Fall," we have God (the creator), nature (His creation) and man (His own image) constantly at odds with each other in a never-ending three-way slugfest.

And the best thing the fundies hope for is that they'll get Raptured out of here just before God decides to flush this failed experiment once and for all.

Funny Religion!
I'm still a Christian though. Something just tells me no one can say it better than Jesus.

but then again, I'm the type that doesn't try to 'complicate' my faith, even though, thats all religion ever is. complicated!
 
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ShieldOFaith

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if God hates sin, how come He made it?

He hates parts of His creation, and in essence, Hates part of Himself?

If

God did not create sin. He gave free will to His creatures. They lost it on their own. Some of the angels fell and became evil. Adam and Eve were dirt bags who rebelled against GOD!!! They were cosmic rebels. They rebelled against the creator of the cosmos! Whack!

Now we are reaping from their stupidity. Thanx adam and eve!!!

GOD RULES!

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
 
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Gremlins

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God did not create sin. He gave free will to His creatures. They lost it on their own. Some of the angels fell and became evil. Adam and Eve were dirt bags who rebelled against GOD!!! They were cosmic rebels. They rebelled against the creator of the cosmos! Whack!

Now we are reaping from their stupidity. Thanx adam and eve!!!

GOD RULES!

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
Children are punished for the sins of their fathers? Loving.

Also, I though Calvinists didn't believe in free will (it is calvinists who are the TULIP people, right?).
 
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ShieldOFaith

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Children are punished for the sins of their fathers? Loving.

Also, I though Calvinists didn't believe in free will (it is calvinists who are the TULIP people, right?).

I will quote Martin Luther on "Free Will".

[SIZE=+2]THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.[/SIZE] Sect. 9.—T[SIZE=-1]HIS[/SIZE], therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore, who would assert "Free-will," must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them. But, however, before I establish this point by any arguments of my own, and by the authority of Scripture, I will first set it forth in your words.
Are you not then the person, friend Erasmus, who just now asserted, that God is by nature just, and by nature most merciful? If this be true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and merciful? That, as His nature is not changed to all eternity, so neither His justice nor His mercy? And what is said concerning His justice and His mercy, must be said also concerning His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and His other Attributes. If therefore these things are asserted religiously, piously, and wholesomely concerning God, as you say yourself, what has come to you, that, contrary to your own self, you now assert, that it is irreligious, curious, and vain, to say, that God foreknows of necessity? You openly declare that the immutable will of God is to be known, but you forbid the knowledge of His immutable prescience. Do you believe that He foreknows against His will, or that He wills in ignorance? If then, He foreknows, willing, His will is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so: and, if He wills, foreknowing, His knowledge is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so.
From which it follows unalterably, that all things which we do, although they may appear to us to be done mutably and contingently, and even may be done thus contingently by us, are yet, in reality, done necessarily and immutably, with respect to the will of God. For the will of God is effective and cannot be hindered; because the very power of God is natural to Him, and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. And as His will cannot be hindered, the work itself cannot be hindered from being done in the place, at the time, in the measure, and by whom He foresees and wills. --The Bondage of the Will, Martin Luther.
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#sover

=============================================

Yes we lost free will, as it relates to GOD; in the garden. Hence, you do not choose GOD; He chooses you! :thumbsup:

[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE]

Total Depravity (Total Inability)

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).
[SIZE=+2]U[/SIZE]

Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.
The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
[SIZE=+2]L[/SIZE]

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE]

Irresistible Grace

The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!
[SIZE=+2]P[/SIZE]

Perseverance of the Saints

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.



SOLI DEO GLORIA.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I'm still a Christian though. Something just tells me no one can say it better than Jesus.

Agreed. Alas, all we have from Jesus comes from third-and fourth-hand sources, most of whom were more interested in talking about him than in quoting him.


but then again, I'm the type that doesn't try to 'complicate' my faith, even though, thats all religion ever is. complicated!

Also agreed -- a belief system is supposed to provide answers, not more questions. Worse is a belief system which produces questions which are forbidden to ask, let alone answer.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I will quote Martin Luther on "Free Will".


Yes we lost free will, as it relates to GOD; in the garden. Hence, you do not choose GOD; He chooses you! :thumbsup:.

I am curious as to how our lack of free will factors into the C.S.A's stance on capital punishment.

Given that:

1: The "choice" as to be saved or not -- that is, to be a True Christian or not -- rests in God's hands, not the mortal's,

2: As I have mentioned before, the Bible is explicit that non-believers are to be put to death,

and 3: The C.S.A.'s official stance has been one of Biblical justice, with Biblical punishments meted out,

Wouldn't that mean that when the C.S.A. executes non-Christians (as they must do, according to premises 2 and 3), they are punishing people for an act that was never their fault, but the result of God's actions?
 
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Nathan Poe

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God did not create sin. He gave free will to His creatures. They lost it on their own. Some of the angels fell and became evil.

Ah, but isn't it part of the Christian tradition that the angels fell before the Garden? (else where did the serpent come from?)

What happened to them, if not an act of free will?


Adam and Eve were dirt bags who rebelled against GOD!!! They were cosmic rebels. They rebelled against the creator of the cosmos! Whack!

Now we are reaping from their stupidity. Thanx adam and eve!!!

Meaning that:

1: We are considerd evil by the very fact of our birth -- an action over which we have no choice. Can morality exist without free will

2: We are punished for a crime committed long before we are born.

3: We are held as guilty in a matter where it is impossible to be innocent.

I am curious how you plan to implement this Biblical doctrine into your C.S.A.'s justice system -- it would seem to me that the Doctrine of Original Sin would presuppose that all accused are guilty unless presumed innocent -- which can never happen.
 
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Nathan Poe

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ShieldOFaith, In all the confusion -- you've been taking a lot of opposition from Christians and non-Christians alike -- I've noticed you haven't had the chance to respond to my posts.

That being said, I'd like to draw your attention back to HERE.

I think that if we could just get a little more detail on the "etc." when it comes to the C.S.A.'s capital punishment, it may settle a great deal of confusion.

Executing murderers, rapists, and child molesters? I've got no problem with that, but executing the "etc."?

The decision for government to mete out the ultimate punishment should have as few gray areas as possible, don't you agree, Shield?
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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And yet again...the questions SoF keeps ducking or hurling mass cut-and-pastes at in the hopes we'll all be confused and wander away:

1. Would SoF enforce all of OT law in its entirety? This should be answerable by a simple yes or no, as either CSA law = OT law, or CSA law ≠ OT law. It's either-or.

2. If the answer to question #1 is no, then what would be the differences between CSA law and OT law, and on what basis and authority does SoF disobey orders and deviate from OT law?
 
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Nathan Poe

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And yet again...the questions SoF keeps ducking or hurling mass cut-and-pastes at in the hopes we'll all be confused and wander away:

1. Would SoF enforce all of OT law in its entirety? This should be answerable by a simple yes or no, as either CSA law = OT law, or CSA law ≠ OT law. It's either-or.

2. If the answer to question #1 is no, then what would be the differences between CSA law and OT law, and on what basis and authority does SoF disobey orders and deviate from OT law?

Well, that's what I'm trying to get at with the "etc." If SoF would just clarify exactly how much OT Law he would enforce, I think we'd understand the C.S.A. a whole lot more.

I fail to see how he (or any rational human being) would be able -- let alone willing -- to enforce OT law in its entirety, so if we only knew where the line was, we can move on with this discussion.
 
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ShieldOFaith

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And yet again...the questions SoF keeps ducking or hurling mass cut-and-pastes at in the hopes we'll all be confused and wander away:

1. Would SoF enforce all of OT law in its entirety? This should be answerable by a simple yes or no, as either CSA law = OT law, or CSA law ≠ OT law. It's either-or.

2. If the answer to question #1 is no, then what would be the differences between CSA law and OT law, and on what basis and authority does SoF disobey orders and deviate from OT law?

It is not a yes or no answer.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. --Romans 13

Capital Punishment! It's what's for nations.
[/FONT]
 
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Nathan Poe

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It is not a yes or no answer.

You've said you'd enforce OT laws in your nation.

The question is: would you enforce ALL those laws?

How is that not a yes or no answer?

If yes, then fine, we can move along.

If no, then which laws wouldn't be enforced?
 
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mpok1519

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God did not create sin. He gave free will to His creatures. They lost it on their own. Some of the angels fell and became evil. Adam and Eve were dirt bags who rebelled against GOD!!! They were cosmic rebels. They rebelled against the creator of the cosmos! Whack!

Now we are reaping from their stupidity. Thanx adam and eve!!!

GOD RULES!

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
you act as if the fall wasn't apart of God's almighty plan.

He didn't create sin?

Yes He did. I believe in Isaiah, there is a passage that says God created everything both good and evil. He created the means of sin, which means he created sin, or at least help make sin possible. Creation of Free will = creation of sin I suppose.
 
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ShieldOFaith

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you act as if the fall wasn't apart of God's almighty plan.

He didn't create sin?

Yes He did. I believe in Isaiah, there is a passage that says God created everything both good and evil. He created the means of sin, which means he created sin, or at least help make sin possible. Creation of Free will = creation of sin I suppose.

God did not create sin. :wave:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. --James 1

Have a nice day.

SOLA GRATIA.
[/FONT]
 
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mpok1519

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God did not create sin. :wave:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. --James 1

Have a nice day.

SOLA GRATIA.
[/FONT]
yes, God is supernatural, immune to human sin; doesn't mean He didn't create a means of which for it to exist. God doesn't tempt us; we don't have to sin, we just do.

....
 
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Nathan Poe

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God did not create sin. :wave:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. --James 1[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Have a nice day.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA GRATIA.[/FONT]

James says one thing; God says another:

[Bible]Isaiah 45:7[/Bible]
 
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