Created to Be His Help-Meet

[MERCY@GRACE]

NEver heard of the book, but I believe they wrote some controversial childrens books. IS This the same book where her husbad got mad and dumped the trashcan out on the floor and made her pick it up( or something along those lines)

Hey if it changes one's relationship or brings them closer, I'm all for it. I'm sure the author makes some great points. Enigma I was really blessed by reading the model of your marriage, but the part about him sending you to your room if your crabby- sounded kinda weird. I don't doubt your happiness, and you don't have to prove it to any of us.....but can you see how that sounds odd to ppl? ( as well as a few other things you have shared, in regards to submissiveness)

 

[LynnMcG]

I have to say, I think many of you are confused about submission. Submission isn't slavery. Submission isn't weakness. I submit to my husband. My husband does not lord this over me. He does not bully me. He does not order me around. He respects me and makes decisions based on what is in line with our beliefs and our family's best interest. He respects and loves me like crazy.

When I submit to my husband it is with the understanding that I do this because my husband loves me as Christ loved the church. It is a natural give and take in our marriage. It didn't happen over night, as I was a very strong, independant, even arrogant woman before I was saved. But as I grow in maturity and in my walk with Christ submission is natural because as I grow I strive to behave in a way that is pleasing to God. And that is my purpose in this life. To please God and not people.

I think some of you are confusing your views on marriage. Is your marriage ordained under God or society? Do you want equality or grace? There's nothing in the bible that tells us that we're to strive for equality in marriage. Husbands are made the head of the household. End of story. Again, this does not give a husband the right to bully or boss. He should cherish and respect - always.

I'm disappointed to see such disrespect for a Sister in Christ by how some have responded to how the OP's chosen to serve God in her marriage.

 

[Cordy]

I think some of you are confusing your views on marriage. Is your marriage ordained under God or society? Do you want equality or grace? There's nothing in the bible that tells us that we're to strive for equality in marriage. Husbands are made the head of the household. End of story.

Really? I think this discussion is evidence that that is not the case.

The Enigmas believe that head means a commander boss, you think it means a lighter type of leadership, and others of us think it might not have anything to do with leadership at all!

I'm so disappointed to see such disrespect for a Sister in Christ just because she's chosen to serve God in her marriage.

Why is disagreeing disrespecting? Am I supposed to forget all my personal convictions to take on the opinion of whomever I am talking with so there is no disagreeing? I strongly disagree with this book, but I am not in anyway trying to personally attack or disrespect Mrs. Enigma, and I think I made that very clear. I just happen to disagree – something that often happens in healthy discussions.

I, too, think submission is often misunderstood. The dominant-submission dichotomy, no matter how light or heavy, seems much more of an influence of the world than the Bible to me than a marriage based on mutually respecting the other.

I believe in submission! But I do not think that submission has anything to do with upholding worldly hierarchies. As believers, I think we are called to leave this human organized hierarchy, and serve each others as equal heirs in Christ. Isn’t that a Christian attitude!? I believe that is submission, and I believe that should take place in marriage. My husband serves me, and truly seeks to love, respect, cherish and honour me for who I am, and in so doing, submits to me. And I do so to him. We submit to each other, as scriptures clearly states all believers are told to do. It works, and we are both encouraged as strong independent individuals, and as a united team in marriage as a result.

 

[Leanna]

I have to say, I think many of you are confused about submission. Submission isn't slavery. Submission isn't weakness. I submit to my husband. My husband does not lord this over me. He does not bully me. He does not order me around. He respects me and makes decisions based on what is in line with our beliefs and our family's best interest. He respects and loves me like crazy.

Hmmmm.... I don't think I am confused, I think you are. I see nothing wrong with what you described here, but if we were talking about the husband lording over you, bullying you and ordering you around.... I would have a problem. That is why I have a problem with the views shared by the OP...

 

[gracefaith]

He does command and is authoritativeHe does not ever accept argueing. He will hear my case if Ipresent it in a humble submisive way, but then he will probably still not change his mind.

Mrs. Enigma, I'm curious how you are to be a help-meet to him if he does not seriously consider you opinions. He hears them out but, apparently, he is rarely, if ever, swayed by your view. Does he never consider your advice pertinent or helpful?

 

[LynnMcG]

Hmmmm.... I don't think I am confused, I think you are. I see nothing wrong with what you described here, but if we were talking about the husband lording over you, bullying you and ordering you around.... I would have a problem. That is why I have a problem with the views shared by the OP...

I'm not confused. I agree that bullying and ordering your spouse is wrong. And I was pretty clear on that. I disagree with the lack of tact in responding to the OP. If a sister is in need, we're supposed to reach out in love. Why would she listen to what we have to say if she's on the defensive.

 

[Southern Cross]

I have to say, I think many of you are confused about submission. Submission isn't slavery. Submission isn't weakness. I submit to my husband. My husband does not lord this over me. He does not bully me. He does not order me around. He respects me and makes decisions based on what is in line with our beliefs and our family's best interest. He respects and loves me like crazy.

When I submit to my husband it is with the understanding that I do this because my husband loves me as Christ loved the church. It is a natural give and take in our marriage. It didn't happen over night, as I was a very strong, independant, even arrogant woman before I was saved. But as I grow in maturity and in my walk with Christ submission is natural because as I grow I strive to behave in a way that is pleasing to God. And that is my purpose in this life. To please God and not people.

LynnMcG, very well said.

Since some of you are polarized on this issue, let me ask just one question. You are married to a Christian guy. He's strong in his faith, so are you. A difficult decision must be made without delay and you are not in agreement with your husband about how to proceed or the final result. He puts his foot down, and makes the decision for your family on his own.

Do you support him in his decision even if it may appear he's taking the wrong approach and the financial/emotional impacts could be significant? Or do you fight him? This scenerio happens in even the best of marriages. So I think it's a worthwhile question.

 

[Cordy]

Since some of you are polarized on this issue, let me ask just one question. You are married to a Christian guy. He's strong in his faith, so are you. A difficult decision must be made without delay and you are not in agreement with your husband about how to proceed or the final result. He puts his foot down, and makes the decision for your family on his own.

Do you support him in his decision even if it may appear he's taking the wrong approach and the financial/emotional impacts could be significant? Or do you fight him? This scenerio happens in even the best of marriages. So I think it's a worthwhile question.

The thing is, is that it just doesn't happen in our marriage.

My husband wouldn’t “put his foot” down and make the decision for me. He feels that that type of behavior of lording over others is wrong. I, too, think it is wrong, and if at some crazy moment of insanity he did pull a “foot down” on me, I would call him on it, and inquire why he is devaluing me to such a great degree. I would confront him rationally, not fight him like it is some kind of war. But, as I said, it would not be according to his character and values to do such a thing. I would be just as shocked as if he told me he was taking on a second wife, or that he intended on joining a sheep-herding-cult rather than joining me on church on Sunday. In all those situations, I believe my responsibility of a loving wife is to hold him accountable, and inquire what is going on.

If there was a situation where a decision had to be made immediately, my husband and I would resolve it together immediately. We have done it before. If there was only seconds, and absolutely no time discuss (talk about scenario in the abstract), then whoever has better knowledge, interest or experience would get to make the decision, and the other would support it.

Now, sir, what about you? If there was some kind of crazy immediate situation that your wife had to just make the decision, would you support her? Or would you fight her on it, and insist you should have made it instead because of your gender or something?

I am also interested, what are the polar view you see? Could you explain?

 

[MERCY@GRACE]

I fully believe that submission is biblical and can't be outdated. Even though my dh is not saved I still follow this formula. I would only hope someone would question me..... if me submitting to my spouse became 'questionable'. Some of us know or have read people's past posts as to what they see submission as.


If someone is into spanking and brings up submission down the road, questiones will be asked, to get a better feel where the poster is coming from, as to see if they are operating in a healthy view of submision. Not everybody may be aware of a previous posters posts(say the 3 p's 3 times ). I am gathering that's why she's received the responses she's had.

I'm not saying they are into spanking, and mrs.enigma and i agree more than disagree. I hope I didn't come across as attacking....bc she seems to only be trying to look for ways to improve her marriage and share that w/ others. I was simply pointing out..that if you make statements taht aren't in the norm...such as dh sends me to my room when I misbehave, or I sit at his feet and beg forgiveness, concerned sisters will voice their OP.

I actually think I am one of the few that still have a conservative view of submission and believe that scripture still holds in certain areas no matter how much culture has changed...but just like w/ anything else...we can take it to the extremes. With the exception of one post, I Think the majority have responded w/ 'tact'. You can only beat around the bush for so long, w/out saying/asking what you really want to say/ask.

 

[LiberatedChick]

I have to say, I think many of you are confused about submission. Submission isn't slavery. Submission isn't weakness. I submit to my husband. My husband does not lord this over me. He does not bully me. He does not order me around. He respects me and makes decisions based on what is in line with our beliefs and our family's best interest. He respects and loves me like crazy.

 

[Southern Cross]

If there was a situation where a decision had to be made immediately, my husband and I would resolve it together immediately. We have done it before. If there was only seconds, and absolutely no time discuss (talk about scenario in the abstract), then whoever has better knowledge, interest or experience would get to make the decision, and the other would support it.

I'm happy to hear you are very in sync with your husband on these issues. It's rare, and a blessing.

Now, sir, what about you? If there was some kind of crazy immediate situation that your wife had to just make the decision, would you support her? Or would you fight her on it, and insist you should have made it instead because of your gender or something?

I wasn't talking about a life or death situation where an immediate decision must be made and I'm not around to help. I'm talking about things like an out of state job offer tha must be accepted or denied within a short deadline, etc. My wife and I get along pretty well and agree on almost everything. But there are those times when we have very different views on how things should be handled and compromise isn't really possible. In those cases, yes, I do put my foot down if she fails to convince me that her way is best.

A wise man listens to the council of his wife. I'd be utterly stupid to not listen to her - she is full of common sense. So it's not an issue of lording it over my wife at all. We both agree that I am the head of the family, and from time to time I need to make the tougher decisions when we're at a stalemate. In 13 years of marriage, I can only think of a few times where I've had to do that. Once when I was offered a job out of state (we moved), once about our home schooling situation (the kids are back in school), and about a pet situation.

We run into some disagreements over finances or diciplining our children once in a while, but those are routine issues and we take care of it when needed.

By the way - I do encourage equal power in decision making in all but the most out of the ordinary circumstances, and I trust my wife's decision making ability on most issues that will impact our family. But there are certain areas that I am very careful about, such as large financial expenditures, our kids' education, and pursuing career opportunities.

Scripture presents a very balanced model of marriage. There is defintiely room for flexibility becasue no relationship is exactly like the rest. God knows that. But He did set some firm standards about family leadership, submission, and His expectations on how we are to love and respect one another. Marriage is most certainly a partnership, but when it comes down to making final decisions when conflict is present, I'm a firm believer the husband takes the lead.

 

[Leanna]

Since some of you are polarized on this issue, let me ask just one question. You are married to a Christian guy. He's strong in his faith, so are you. A difficult decision must be made without delay and you are not in agreement with your husband about how to proceed or the final result. He puts his foot down, and makes the decision for your family on his own.

Do you support him in his decision even if it may appear he's taking the wrong approach and the financial/emotional impacts could be significant? Or do you fight him? This scenerio happens in even the best of marriages. So I think it's a worthwhile question.

I've never understood this, but I've asked a lot, I can't think of any good examples of times when we can't come to an agreement. Sometimes we do things his way and sometimes mine.... no one forces him or I to do this, we just do. It is a way of showing respect and love for each other.... we would behave as children if we always felt that we had to get our way.... I don't think that. Neither does my husband. So it works out. I think the old fashioned submission method very carefully tiptoes around some issues, lets do an example, should a couple move across the country? In old fashioned submission, the wife might say "no, I don't want to, the kids are in school, our family is here, yadda yadda." The man would say, "This job makes more money and I think it would be best if we took it..." Then, because he is the man, they would move. The woman has to carefully put aside her feelings of bitterness about the fact that since she was born a woman her opinion is not as valued. In the system my family employs, if it came to that situation we would continue to discuss it open on the table and in the end ONE of us would decide to go with the other's method. We would probably move, but since my opinion would be valued the same and in the end WE made the decision to move rather than HE made the decision I would feel a whole lot better about doing something that wasn't my top choice. Sometimes we do it his way, sometimes we do it mine. I don't mind being the minority, I think this is the way its meant to be and only centuries of male dominance, dominant because they COULD be if you look at history, has left remnants of the old fashioned submission beliefs.

 

[Leanna]

I wasn't talking about a life or death situation where an immediate decision must be made and I'm not around to help. I'm talking about things like an out of state job offer tha must be accepted or denied within a short deadline, etc. My wife and I get along pretty well and agree on almost everything. But there are those times when we have very different views on how things should be handled and compromise isn't really possible. In those cases, yes, I do put my foot down if she fails to convince me that her way is best.

A wise man listens to the council of his wife. I'd be utterly stupid to not listen to her - she is full of common sense. So it's not an issue of lording it over my wife at all. We both agree that I am the head of the family, and from time to time I need to make the tougher decisions when we're at a stalemate. In 13 years of marriage, I can only think of a few times where I've had to do that. Once when I was offered a job out of state (we moved), once about our home schooling situation (the kids are back in school), and about a pet situation.

We run into some disagreements over finances or diciplining our children once in a while, but those are routine issues and we take care of it when needed.

By the way - I do encourage equal power in decision making in all but the most out of the ordinary circumstances, and I trust my wife's decision making ability on most issues that will impact our family. But there are certain areas that I am very careful about, such as large financial expenditures, our kids' education, and pursuing career opportunities.

Scripture presents a very balanced model of marriage. There is defintiely room for flexibility becasue no relationship is exactly like the rest. God knows that. But He did set some firm standards about family leadership, submission, and His expectations on how we are to love and respect one another. Marriage is most certainly a partnership, but when it comes down to making final decisions when conflict is present, I'm a firm believer the husband takes the lead.

I do like your post here, and you are very close to the way we do it actually.... it sounds like this works great for you since you only had 3 times that you had to "put your foot down" but our way seems almost exactly the same, except we would also continue to work through those three until we are both happy with the solution.

 

[Galadriel]

I think when it comes to making decisions like that, then I think both the husband and wife should talk about it, and come to a decision. Say the husband says "we need to move because we are broke and the money to be earned is in another state" and the wife says "no I don't want to I have family here and such" well then she should probably go with the husband and move, because it is for the good of the whole family to move. The thing is, it depends on the individual situacion. I think though it is wrong for the husband to hardly ever consult his wife, I mean they are a team. A woman does have a brain and opinion, and I just get a bit worried when a woman acts like she can't consult or talk with her husband and have her imput in making decisions just because she fears she may not be acting submissive. This isn't against submission, its her saying her opinion/thoughts on the matter. In fact the husband may have missed some key element in the decision making process that he doesn't see, but she points it out to him. This is helpful. I just don't think submission means that the woman can't say anything unless the husband asks her to, or that she has to obey him like a child would a parent. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Galadriel]

I'm disappointed to see such disrespect for a Sister in Christ by how some have responded to how the OP's chosen to serve God in her marriage.

I don't think that disagreeing equals disrespect at all. We may as well just end this thread if we can't talk about why we agree/disagree with the OP. If Mrs. Enigma feels that is how she best can serve God in her marriage and be happy in it, that is fine for her. Don't expect everyone to have the same exact view on it though.



[BIBLE]1 peter 3:7[/BIBLE]

 

[heron]

"86% of women have been victimized at least once before by an intimate partner or ex-partner."

http://www.med.umich.edu/abusehurts/stats.htm

What percentage of women was this book written for?

mbams: "Why is disagreeing disrespecting?"

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

Mrs Enigma... there's something I've often wondered, and although this isn't strictly on-topic, maybe you wouldn't mind answering it anyway.

Do you think that a marriage built on mutual respect, where neither person challenges or commands, but the two work together in agreement, less scriptural than your model?

I'm hoping this won't cause a huge blow-up - if you think it will, feel free to PM me to answer

Well, here is my response. It is very long. Most of you will hate it. I really want to be your guys friend, even if you do not agree with me at all, so please do not think that I see myself as a sinless saint and you as evil pagans or something.

Alright, I am going to try to formulate what I believe about women’s roles out here.
I believe that children are to obey their parents in the Lord, as stated in the new testament. I think they are out of line and disobeying God’s word if they refuse to do as I tell them. My six year old is a Christian, but I do not believe that the verse that says “submit one to another”, means that he does not have to obey, or that I must do whatever he commands of me. I would be taking that verse out of context and misapplying it, if I told you that in order to please God, you must submit everything to your kid for approval.

I think that the verse stating that kids are to obey their parents still holds true today, and that the verse saying that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church still holds true.

I also think that these other verses still hold true today:

“And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church” 1Cor. 14:35

“ The aged women….may teach the young women to be… obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed” Titus 2:3-5

“Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord” Col.3:18

“ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man….” 1Cor. 11:3

“Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church….Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” Eph.5:22-24

“ For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” 1Cor. 11:8-9

Unto the woman he said.. And thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee” Gen. 3:16

“It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him an help-meet for him” Gen.2:18

“ …and the wife see that she reverence her husband” Eph. 5:32-33

“Let your women keep silence in the churches for they are not permitted to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law” 1Cor. 14:34

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence” 1Tim. 2:12

”Likewise ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands…” 1Pet.3:1

“For after this manner the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves….. being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him ‘lord‘..” 1Pet.3:5-6

These verses definitely say that a wife has a different role to fill than the husband. She is to be in subjection to him, reverence him, obey him, be a helper to him, be ruled over by him, submit to him, and be quiet in church and ask him later if she wants to learn Bible stuff. She is not to usurp his authority, she’d be doing good to call him “lord”, and she should not teach him.

She is to obey him as if he were Christ Jesus.
This stuff just does not fit with the popular idea that a marriage means equal say in everything, or that their roles are the same, that he must discuss everything with you, or that whatever you feel like is fine.

God gave clear instructions. If we disobey him than we are sinning. It would be rebellion, and the Bible says that “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft’. Also, Titus 2:3-5 said that the word of God would be blasphemed if we do not obey our husbands.

Eph.5:22-24 said that we are to be subject to our husbands in EVERYTHING.
If your hubby wants to ask your input on every decision, he can. However, that is his prerogative. We were created to be his helper. He was not created to be our helper.

If my kids question all my decisions, argue about my rules, tell me that I am not spiritual enough cuz I am reading the paper instead of having devotions with them, or refuse to pick up their socks until I pick up mine, then they are not under obedience to me. They are trying to have the same position that I was meant to have. They are not oppressed if they obey me. They still need to happily obey even when they do not understand or like my rules. I am not bad for making rules. The only way that it could be considered oppression, is if they have a rebellious attitude, instead of a content, thankful heart. It is their heart that determines whether I am oppressing or whether we are living in perfect harmony. My kids have more peace and are much happier than rebellious brats. I am sure the rebellious kids would not be able to understand how my kids could be truly happy when they have to obey me all the time, but they are thinking from a purely selfish, fleshly perspective. God’s way is always the best way. It works out the best and is the happiest way for me.

So, that is my take on the subject. If you do not agree with those Bible verses, I am not condemning you to hell. I do, however, put you in the same category as a man viewing inappropriate content. Rejecting God’s clear instruction so that you can run after your fleshly desire, to be the leader or in control or unsubmissive, or fighting for rights that God never gave you.

However, if you are obeying your husband, your marriage does not have to be a mirror of mine. Your hubby may want way more input, he may want to know your opinion on everything. He can do that if he wants. He is the king. You are still submitting then, as long as you are not pushy, and act good when he does not do it your way. He may put you in charge of the finances, or who knows what else.

I find that my husbands respond much better to full happy submission, then to arguments, or human reasoning. The type of marriage and husband that a woman dreams of, can be most readily and easily achieved by full surrender and devotion.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

I have to say, I think many of you are confused about submission. Submission isn't slavery. Submission isn't weakness. I submit to my husband. My husband does not lord this over me. He does not bully me. He does not order me around. He respects me and makes decisions based on what is in line with our beliefs and our family's best interest. He respects and loves me like crazy.

When I submit to my husband it is with the understanding that I do this because my husband loves me as Christ loved the church. It is a natural give and take in our marriage. It didn't happen over night, as I was a very strong, independant, even arrogant woman before I was saved. But as I grow in maturity and in my walk with Christ submission is natural because as I grow I strive to behave in a way that is pleasing to God. And that is my purpose in this life. To please God and not people.

I think some of you are confusing your views on marriage. Is your marriage ordained under God or society? Do you want equality or grace? There's nothing in the bible that tells us that we're to strive for equality in marriage. Husbands are made the head of the household. End of story. Again, this does not give a husband the right to bully or boss. He should cherish and respect - always.

I'm disappointed to see such disrespect for a Sister in Christ by how some have responded to how the OP's chosen to serve God in her marriage.

My hubby does seriously consider my points on an issue. He is not super bossy and is not a control freak. He does make rules and enforce them. A husband does not have to send his wife to bed just to be in charge. I don't think it is wrong for him to tell her to go to bed though either. If your hubby is more lenient, that is certainly his choice and is fine.
My children love and cherish me. My daughter wants to grow up to be like me, and my son said that I was the nicest wife he knows of.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

Mrs. Enigma, I'm curious how you are to be a help-meet to him if he does not seriously consider you opinions. He hears them out but, apparently, he is rarely, if ever, swayed by your view. Does he never consider your advice pertinent or helpful?

I am a help-meet because I cook for him, I clean for him, I listen to his thoughts and ramblings, I give him sex, I raise his kids, I play with him, I help him hold the board while he saws, I find his lost stuff. I do say encouraging things to him. I give him love, and go to work with him to help him catch up. That is a lot of helpful stuff.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

LynnMcG, very well said.

Since some of you are polarized on this issue, let me ask just one question. You are married to a Christian guy. He's strong in his faith, so are you. A difficult decision must be made without delay and you are not in agreement with your husband about how to proceed or the final result. He puts his foot down, and makes the decision for your family on his own.

Do you support him in his decision even if it may appear he's taking the wrong approach and the financial/emotional impacts could be significant? Or do you fight him? This scenerio happens in even the best of marriages. So I think it's a worthwhile question.

I believe I should support him. He is a capable adult. He is wise. Why would my idea be any more valid than his? I used to try to impart my spiritual wisdom, and worry to death. I still mess up sometimes.