• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Created by extra-terrestrials

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
You want a clear distinction? Here's one: "Microevolution is the process that is responsible for the many variations of some species of living things, such as dogs and finches. Macroevolution, on the other hand is the mythical process by which one kind of creature, such as a reptile, turns into another kind, such as a bird."
You've reinvented the term "macroevolution" to suit your purposes, here. You don't get to say that microevolution is change within "kinds" and that macroevolution is change between "kinds"... and then say that because "kinds" cannot change, macroevolution doesn't happen.
The professional use of the term macroevolution refers to change above the species level -- that is, speciation. And we observe speciation in nature even today. Therefore, macroevolution happens, whether you accept it or not.

Look, you've done the same thing here:

MICRO-evolution is observable. MACRO-evolution is strictly historical.
You've redefined these terms to suit your agenda. You can't say that microevolution is what we see, and macroevolution is what we don't see, therefore macroevolution doesn't happen. That's dishonest.

There were no humans, on this planet, until Noah arrived
Whaaaaat? So according to you, Noah -- not Adam -- was the first human?
With all due respect, Seve, I don't think you're winning anyone over in this discussion.
 
Upvote 0
Whaaaaat? So according to you, Noah -- not Adam -- was the first human?
With all due respect, Seve, I don't think you're winning anyone over in this discussion.

As I have asserted before, this is not the same plannet where Adam' generations thru Noah used to live in. Their world was totally destroyed by the universal flood. Noah and the ark was brought here on this plannet similar to the way Apostle Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven -- another world -- they were raptured.

Try to understand what you're reading or get somebody to explain to you my previous post. Better yet, pray for wisdom and understanding.

Your vain attempt to create fallacious argument based on your own made up story only shows your lack of understanding of the Scripture. I'll be more than happy to help, just let me know?

God Bless
 
Upvote 0
Not true. Macro-evolution has been observed. In fact, those finches you spoke of are an instance of macro-evolution (though not one of the observed instances.)

By the way, if you don't know the classification of living things by kinds---as you have stated--you cannot define macro-evolution in terms of kinds and claim that it does not occur. There is no way you can tell if it happens or not unless you can distinguish one kind from another. But you can't because "No one knows His classification system except He, Himself."

Scientists don't define macro-evolution in terms of kinds. They define macro-evolution in terms of species. If you get a new species, that is macro-evolution and that has been observed.

Is that right?, Okay, let's talk about your allege expertise of the subject.

NEW 'SPECIES'?
New 'species' can and have formed, if by definition we mean something which cannot breed with other species of the same genus, but this is not evidence for evolution. The new species have no new genetic information! For example, a 'new species' has arisen in Drosophila, the ferment fly so popular in undergraduate genetics laboratories. The new 'species' cannot breed with the parent species but is fertile with its own type, so it is, by definition, a new 'species'. However, there is no new genetic information, just the physical rearrangement of the genes on one chromosome — technically called a 'chromosome translocation'.

To get evolution 'from bacteria to Bach' requires incredible amounts of new information to be added. Typical bacteria have about 2,000 proteins; a human has about 100,000. At every upward step of evolution there needs to be new information added. Where does it come from? Not from mutations — they degrade information.

Carl Sagan, ardent evolutionist, admitted: '... mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful—it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.' (Carl Sagan, The Dragons of Eden, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1977, p. 28.)

Things reproduce according to their kind, just like the Bible says (Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25). They always have and they always will—while ever this world exists.

… But no new 'kinds'
There are many breeds of pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc., but they are all pigeons, cattle, horses, dogs, etc. Recombination of existing genes can produce enormous variety within a kind, but the variation is limited by the genes present. If there are no genes present for producing feathers, you can breed reptiles for a billion years and you will not get anything with feathers! Polyploidy (multiplication of the number of chromosomes), chromosome translocations, recombination and even (possibly) mutations can generate 'new species', but not new information, not new characteristics for which there were no genes to start with. (Carl Sagan, The Dragons of Eden, Hodder and Stoughton, London)

Duplication of anything does not constitute an increase of information. Random mutations to change the duplicated gene would not add information unless the mutated sequence coded for some new, useful protein (no one has demonstrated such a thing happening; there have only been imaginative scenarios proposed). To illustrate: if “superman” were the duplicated “gene”, and mutations in the letters changed it to “sxyxvawtu ”, you have clearly lost information, although you have a new sequence. This is the difference between complexity and specified complexity. A pile of sand is complex , but is information-poor, because it specifies nothing.


Once again, having a rich imagination doesn’t make an event repeatable, but it does demonstrate that non-repeatable events of the past are subject to speculation, which is what evolution is.

Sorry
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Your vain attempt to create fallacious argument based on your own made up story only shows your lack of understanding of the Scripture.
You assert that I have a poor understanding of Scripture while presenting Noah as not only the first human, but as an interplanetary traveller at that. I guess we'll have to let our readers decide for themselves who's making things up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0
Doesn't matter what one thinks but what one can support with Scripture. The 1st Firmament, Heaven, or Universe was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 The 2nd and 3rd Heavens or Kosmos, were made on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-5

The 1st Universe was destroyed in the Flood (Adam's world). ll Peter 3:5-7 This present Heaven or Universe (our world) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10 The other world, 3rd Heaven, is where Jesus is, physically (New Jerusalem), preparing a place for all Christians to live in, when this world is burned.

The ark is no more a spaceship than the Apostle Paul is. Paul was taken to the 3rd Heaven, or Universe, in ll Corinthians 12:2. Does this mean that we should call Paul, a spaceship? How ignorant can one be? If you cannot understand that the Rapture is physically leaving the present world, and going to another world, then you will just have to remain ignorant of how Noah left the world of Adam,and came to this present, lost and dying world. I am sorry that you cannot understand such a simple biblical concept.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: v6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (Greek- totally destroyed): v7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Are you ready to admit that Evolution did Not produce Human Intelligence? Can you see that the agreement of Scripture and History out weights the assumptions of scientists, which have little or No Evidence to support them concerning How or When we obtained our Human Intelligence? Is it just a coincidence that the first City, on this Planet, was built by one of Noah's descendants?


:bow:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Doesn't matter what one thinks but what one can support with Scripture.
But none of what you're saying is supported by Scripture. Your reading is entirely eisegetical. Let me show you:

The 1st Firmament, Heaven, or Universe was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 The 2nd and 3rd Heavens or Kosmos, were made on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-5
You speak of "firmament" as though it means universe. It doesn't. "Firmament" literally refers to a flattened expanse made of hammered metal, and the ANE people literally thought there was a metalic/crystaline dome above their heads to keep heavenly waters from falling to the earth. This concept is presented time and again throughout the Bible (e.g., Job 37:18, Ezekiel 1:22, etc.).

The 1st Universe was destroyed in the Flood (Adam's world).
Where does the Bible say this? The Bible tells us that Noah's world was flooded, but the firmament (=universe of your usage) was left intact. After all, it was still there in David's day (Psalm 150:1). Again, you're reading some very strange things into the Bible.

How ignorant can one be?...
I am sorry that you cannot understand such a simple concept.
It's not just me who doesn't buy into your science fiction. I don't know any Christian who believes Noah was an interstellar space traveller. Feel as smug as you'd like about your personal interpretation, but no one else is buying into it. I guess everyone in the world is ignorant except you!

Are you ready to admit that Evolution did Not produce Human Intelligence? Can you see that the agreement of Scripture and History out weights the assumptions of scientists, which have little or No Evidence to support them concerning How or When we obtained our Human Intelligence? Is it just a coincidence that the first City, on this Planet, was built by one of Noah's descendants?
No. Because as gluadys and I have shown, your scenario is supported neither by Scripture, nor by science. No amount of proof texting, plagiarism, or ignoring rebuttals -- as you have proven yourself capable of so far -- will change that.
 
Upvote 0
Dear Readers,

It’s really amazing how the book of Genesis documents us the process "duplication" or “cloning” (scientist term) even before any scientist or Godless evolutionist ever born into this world. Yet, evolutionists claim that God only created life and after that evolution happened naturally. They are ignorant of the fact that God created and allowed only micro-evolution to happen to preserve and confine creatures form their own kind - from the very beginning.

Look…

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept (sedation): and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof (surgery); v22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman (duplication/recombination with new function created), and brought her unto the man.

Notice: While the Lord created new function (female sex organ) out of Adam’s rib thru the process of duplication or “cloning”, there’s no new information added (same human flesh) to support or advance macro-evolution’ flawed theory and wild imagination, biblically speaking.

“If any man have an ear, let him hear.”

God Bless
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Yet, evolutionists claim that God only created life and after that evolution happened naturally.
Dear Readers,

Don't make the same mistake that Seve did and assume that just because something happens in accordance with natural laws (like gravity, or embryological development, or weather), that this somehow means God is not involved. At no point during the development of a fetus does God enter the womb and magically attach an ear or carve out a mouth. These things unfold according to the natural and predictable laws God ordains and sustains, and as such, we are each a creation of God. Using natural explanations to describe the evolution of man is no more godless than using natural explanations to describe how rain forms or how disease spreads -- something Christians accept every day. By seeking God only in the miraculous, we overlook the wonderful evidence of design that God has programmed into nature. We also succumb to god-of-the-gaps theology, in which we seek God only in the receding gaps of human knowledge. By doing this, we put our faith in a dangerous position, for as our knowledge of this world grows, we are forced to squeeze God into smaller and smaller holes of human ignorance. Place your faith in Christ, not in seeking signs, as Seve advocates (Matt 16:4).
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Is that right?, Okay, let's talk about your allege expertise of the subject.

NEW 'SPECIES'?
New 'species' can and have formed, if by definition we mean something which cannot breed with other species of the same genus,


Yes, that is the accepted definition commonly used for sexually reproducing species.

but this is not evidence for evolution.

This is not only evidence for evolution. It IS evolution. In fact, it is macro-evolution. Show me a science text that says otherwise.

The new species have no new genetic information!

What does new genetic information look like? What unit of genetic information are you using? How have you determined that there is no new genetic information in these species?

However, there is no new genetic information, just the physical rearrangement of the genes on one chromosome — technically called a 'chromosome translocation'.

Does that mean that when the editors of a dictionary rearrange the letters of "canoe" so that it reads "ocean" no new information has been created?

Not from mutations — they degrade information.

What does "degraded" genetic information look like? How do you determine it is degraded? Are you speaking of pseudogenes? Do you know that most mutations do not result in pseudogenes? Do you know that your genome probably contains around 100 new mutations: arrangements of DNA not found in either of your parents? Are you more genetically degraded than they are? What is the evidence of this degradation?

Carl Sagan, ardent evolutionist, admitted: '... mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful—it is rare that a precision machine is improved by a random change in the instructions for making it.' (Carl Sagan, The Dragons of Eden, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1977, p. 28.)

Carl Sagan was an astronomer, not a biologist. And he was wrong. Most mutations have very little if any effect and are neutral with respect to fitness, survival and reproduction.

Things reproduce according to their kind, just like the Bible says (Genesis

Depends on how you define "kind". It is true that no species evolves out of its higher taxonomic categories. All its descendants will be in the same family, order, class, etc. their ancestor. All descendants of mammals are mammals; all descendants of primates are primates, all descendants of apes are apes, etc.


but the variation is limited by the genes present.

Not true. New genes can be created from old through mutation. A common way is to duplicate an existing gene (mutation 1), then change the DNA arrangement in the copy (mutation 2). Voila, a new gene.

Duplication of anything does not constitute an increase of information.

By some definitions of information, true. But when biological information is duplicated it has real effects in a developing embryo. It is not silent, unused information. For example, the duplication of a chromosome is the genetic cause of Down's Syndrome.

Random mutations to change the duplicated gene would not add information unless the mutated sequence coded for some new, useful protein (no one has demonstrated such a thing happening;

Ever hear of nylonase?

there have only been imaginative scenarios proposed). To illustrate: if “superman” were the duplicated “gene”, and mutations in the letters changed it to “sxyxvawtu ”, you have clearly lost information, although you have a new sequence. This is the difference between complexity and specified complexity. A pile of sand is complex , but is information-poor, because it specifies nothing.

Don't confuse DNA codons with words in a language. There is no codon which is not informative. Every possible arrangement of base nucleotides within the three-base system of the codons is a meaningful "word".


]Once again, having a rich imagination doesn’t make an event repeatable, but it does demonstrate that non-repeatable events of the past are subject to speculation, which is what evolution is.

Evolution is a change in the proportional distribution of alleles in a species' gene pool transcending generations.


You should be. Your grasp of evolution is atrocious.

even before any scientist or Godless evolutionist ever born into this world.

It would do you a world of good to listen to some God-fearing evolutionists (aka evolutionary creationists).
 
Upvote 0
Dear Readers,

Don't make the same mistake that Seve did and assume that just because something happens in accordance with natural laws (like gravity, or embryological development, or weather), that this somehow means God is not involved.

Dear Readers,

Obviously, the above quote is a malicious misrepresentation of my stand based only on Mallon's made up story -- in desperation attempt to cover-up his ignorance of the Scripture.

Such arrogance and ignorance is rarely seen. Evolutionist, like Mallon placing his worship in "Natural Science" see their position as "lofty", when in Truth, they are praising the great destroyer. Only those who are ignorant of Satan's ways, would fall for such tripe.

Nature eventually destroys or makes extinct Every Living Creature. Creationists worship God who makes Every Living Creature to Live. How dare some Godless Evol like Mallon suggest that, we, who will inherit Everything, would believe that " natural science" is superior to God's Truth.

Such acceptance by Blind Faith is typical for most Evols. With little or No evidence, these zealous worshippers claim they don't have Evol Religion, but their own words betray them.

Accepting that we "evolved" our Human intelligence from that which has NO intelligence, is pure Evol Religion. Just Believe, these false Religionists teach.

First we spontaneously sprang forth Chemically.... POOF... and then we magically changed from animal to Human intelligence, after Mystically Morphing from Amoeba to Man.

Such Mother Goose fantasy is available only from True Evol Believers. Don't laugh, for they are Force teaching their laughable Religion to our children, while screaming for "evidence" that they are wrong.

Presuming that they know more than God, they become fools.


Sorry




 
Upvote 0
Okay, let's talk about mutations -- nylon bug.....

Mutations have been scientifically observed to give an organism a new function, they have not however been observed to make the organism more complex, that is, building upon the existing DNA which must be required for evolution to advance. In other words there has never been a mutation that has increased or added to the genetic information of an organism.

The fact is that since mutations only scramble the existing DNA to achieve a different read-out, resulting in (at times) a beneficial adaptation to the enviroment, this cannot be evolution! In fact, within the observable science we have on mutations, it is creation that predicts the types of changes we see created by them.

Even if we go beyond that questionable ground of evidence for evolution, likewise science has not observed, as a result of these mutations, an organism changing into anything other than what the organism was before the mutation. The change or the, "massive changes resulting from little changes" that evolutionists allude to in trying to prove that evolution has been observed is in fact a great way to dismiss any other valid thinking on the subject. The important thing to keep in mind here is which side, evolution, or creation, stays within the realm of observable science.

I have literally asked evolutionists on message boards, "Where is a real-world scientifically observable example of a mutation producing new information, thus increasing and building upon the existing DNA resulting in a new organism emerging from what was originally there?" Keep in mind, that mutations alone cannot adequately explain the phenomonan of evolution, yet they constantly try to prove it through that avenue.

They, fully believing the evolution theory as scientific fact have claimed that a bacterium, called the nylon bug here on out by me, with its adaptation to consuming nylon waste is scientific evidence of evolution. But how you ask? You may be thinking, "To me it sounds like adaptation to its environment", and that is exactly right. Allow me to further explain the evidence presented and therefore known about this nylon bug.

Having this bacteria being able to have waste products of nylon as their only source of carbon and nitrogen is quite remarkable but let us focus on just two species of bacteria first, Flavobacterium K172 and Pseudomonas NK87. Three enzymes are responsible for this ability in Flavobacterium K172, which are: F-EI, F-EII and F-EIII and two in Pseudomonas NK87: P-EI and P-EII. The genes for these enzymes are located on three plasmids. Plasmid pOAD2 in Flavobacterium and pNAD2 and pNAD6 in Pseudomonas.

I will admit that this specific mutation is advantageous for the bacteria as it is able to use the broken down nylon as a new ‘food’ source but as far as added new functional genetic information to the gene pool, I don't think so. A frame-shift mutation being responsible for this change in the bacteria is when one base pair is deleted, so that all the bases after that one are ‘read’ differently.

Here is a simple example of how a frame-shift mutations works:

ONE FAT FOX ATE THE CAT

The frame-shift would delete the first ‘T’ to shift over the letters after the word containing the 'T', the sentence becomes:

ONE FAF OXA TET HEC AT

Indeed this example doesn't make the frame-shifted DNA read-out mean anything, but in the case of the nylon-metabolising enzyme’s it worked. In most other cases a frame-shift mutation is not a good thing and causes a disruption to the genes.

The evolutionist would claim that the bacteria has indeed increased information as it produced a new read-out. But this new read-out is still a subset of the already existing DNA. The frame-shift mutation did not add onto the existing DNA rather it only scrambled what was there! There is no way around it, the variation or changes cannot become massive changes needed because if all it does is re-arrange the existing DNA it is limited to that DNA. That is why if they could produce some natural process that builds on, not scrambles the existing DNA to cause a new function they would have something. If anything I would say this is a special adaptation mechanism in play, which would be creationism, rather than evolution observed.

All we have is a fast mutating species, and after millions of generations of reproduction, it still retains the basic properties as originally described when discovered in 1889 and is still identifiable as itself. You may disagree, but I find it quite evident that the DNA genome can recombine in specific pre-programmed ways for specific purposes in relation to the enviroment. All the nylon bug displays is an example of this.

That the bacteria mutate so that they can break down nylon waste as their food sources can still fall under the creationist model until the bacteria literally become something else. Then and only then will evolution have a strong case in the realm of mutations being the mechanism for the massive changes needed. (source)
 
Upvote 0

Melethiel

Miserere mei, Domine
Site Supporter
Jun 8, 2005
27,287
940
35
Ohio
✟99,593.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to hear a bit from the other creationists. Busterdog et al, what say you to the ideas put forward by our friend Seve here?
I find it interesting that Mallon is being declared to be a Godless Evolutionist here, when he has very often declared that he believes God to be the Creator.

Who's misrepresenting who's position?
 
Upvote 0

Melethiel

Miserere mei, Domine
Site Supporter
Jun 8, 2005
27,287
940
35
Ohio
✟99,593.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Okay, let's talk about mutations -- nylon bug.....

Mutations have been scientifically observed to give an organism a new function, they have not however been observed to make the organism more complex, that is, building upon the existing DNA which must be required for evolution to advance. In other words there has never been a mutation that has increased or added to the genetic information of an organism.

The fact is that since mutations only scramble the existing DNA to achieve a different read-out, resulting in (at times) a beneficial adaptation to the enviroment, this cannot be evolution! In fact, within the observable science we have on mutations, it is creation that predicts the types of changes we see created by them.

Even if we go beyond that questionable ground of evidence for evolution, likewise science has not observed, as a result of these mutations, an organism changing into anything other than what the organism was before the mutation. The change or the, "massive changes resulting from little changes" that evolutionists allude to in trying to prove that evolution has been observed is in fact a great way to dismiss any other valid thinking on the subject. The important thing to keep in mind here is which side, evolution, or creation, stays within the realm of observable science.

I have literally asked evolutionists on message boards, "Where is a real-world scientifically observable example of a mutation producing new information, thus increasing and building upon the existing DNA resulting in a new organism emerging from what was originally there?" Keep in mind, that mutations alone cannot adequately explain the phenomonan of evolution, yet they constantly try to prove it through that avenue.

They, fully believing the evolution theory as scientific fact have claimed that a bacterium, called the nylon bug here on out by me, with its adaptation to consuming nylon waste is scientific evidence of evolution. But how you ask? You may be thinking, "To me it sounds like adaptation to its environment", and that is exactly right. Allow me to further explain the evidence presented and therefore known about this nylon bug.

Having this bacteria being able to have waste products of nylon as their only source of carbon and nitrogen is quite remarkable but let us focus on just two species of bacteria first, Flavobacterium K172 and Pseudomonas NK87. Three enzymes are responsible for this ability in Flavobacterium K172, which are: F-EI, F-EII and F-EIII and two in Pseudomonas NK87: P-EI and P-EII. The genes for these enzymes are located on three plasmids. Plasmid pOAD2 in Flavobacterium and pNAD2 and pNAD6 in Pseudomonas.

I will admit that this specific mutation is advantageous for the bacteria as it is able to use the broken down nylon as a new ‘food’ source but as far as added new functional genetic information to the gene pool, I don't think so. A frame-shift mutation being responsible for this change in the bacteria is when one base pair is deleted, so that all the bases after that one are ‘read’ differently.

Here is a simple example of how a frame-shift mutations works:

ONE FAT FOX ATE THE CAT

The frame-shift would delete the first ‘T’ to shift over the letters after the word containing the 'T', the sentence becomes:

ONE FAF OXA TET HEC AT

Indeed this example doesn't make the frame-shifted DNA read-out mean anything, but in the case of the nylon-metabolising enzyme’s it worked. In most other cases a frame-shift mutation is not a good thing and causes a disruption to the genes.

The evolutionist would claim that the bacteria has indeed increased information as it produced a new read-out. But this new read-out is still a subset of the already existing DNA. The frame-shift mutation did not add onto the existing DNA rather it only scrambled what was there! There is no way around it, the variation or changes cannot become massive changes needed because if all it does is re-arrange the existing DNA it is limited to that DNA. That is why if they could produce some natural process that builds on, not scrambles the existing DNA to cause a new function they would have something. If anything I would say this is a special adaptation mechanism in play, which would be creationism, rather than evolution observed.

All we have is a fast mutating species, and after millions of generations of reproduction, it still retains the basic properties as originally described when discovered in 1889 and is still identifiable as itself. You may disagree, but I find it quite evident that the DNA genome can recombine in specific pre-programmed ways for specific purposes in relation to the enviroment. All the nylon bug displays is an example of this.

That the bacteria mutate so that they can break down nylon waste as their food sources can still fall under the creationist model until the bacteria literally become something else. Then and only then will evolution have a strong case in the realm of mutations being the mechanism for the massive changes needed. (source)
How do you define "genetic information"? Is it number of base pairs, or what? (If it is, we have insertion mutations.) You can claim till you're blue in the face that mutations don't "add genetic information", but until we know what you mean by that (I have been asking for ages and have yet to get a clear answer), it's not much help.
 
Upvote 0

Melethiel

Miserere mei, Domine
Site Supporter
Jun 8, 2005
27,287
940
35
Ohio
✟99,593.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Okay, let's talk about mutations -- nylon bug.....

Mutations have been scientifically observed to give an organism a new function, they have not however been observed to make the organism more complex, that is, building upon the existing DNA which must be required for evolution to advance. In other words there has never been a mutation that has increased or added to the genetic information of an organism.

The fact is that since mutations only scramble the existing DNA to achieve a different read-out, resulting in (at times) a beneficial adaptation to the enviroment, this cannot be evolution! In fact, within the observable science we have on mutations, it is creation that predicts the types of changes we see created by them.

Even if we go beyond that questionable ground of evidence for evolution, likewise science has not observed, as a result of these mutations, an organism changing into anything other than what the organism was before the mutation. The change or the, "massive changes resulting from little changes" that evolutionists allude to in trying to prove that evolution has been observed is in fact a great way to dismiss any other valid thinking on the subject. The important thing to keep in mind here is which side, evolution, or creation, stays within the realm of observable science.

I have literally asked evolutionists on message boards, "Where is a real-world scientifically observable example of a mutation producing new information, thus increasing and building upon the existing DNA resulting in a new organism emerging from what was originally there?" Keep in mind, that mutations alone cannot adequately explain the phenomonan of evolution, yet they constantly try to prove it through that avenue.

They, fully believing the evolution theory as scientific fact have claimed that a bacterium, called the nylon bug here on out by me, with its adaptation to consuming nylon waste is scientific evidence of evolution. But how you ask? You may be thinking, "To me it sounds like adaptation to its environment", and that is exactly right. Allow me to further explain the evidence presented and therefore known about this nylon bug.

Having this bacteria being able to have waste products of nylon as their only source of carbon and nitrogen is quite remarkable but let us focus on just two species of bacteria first, Flavobacterium K172 and Pseudomonas NK87. Three enzymes are responsible for this ability in Flavobacterium K172, which are: F-EI, F-EII and F-EIII and two in Pseudomonas NK87: P-EI and P-EII. The genes for these enzymes are located on three plasmids. Plasmid pOAD2 in Flavobacterium and pNAD2 and pNAD6 in Pseudomonas.

I will admit that this specific mutation is advantageous for the bacteria as it is able to use the broken down nylon as a new ‘food’ source but as far as added new functional genetic information to the gene pool, I don't think so. A frame-shift mutation being responsible for this change in the bacteria is when one base pair is deleted, so that all the bases after that one are ‘read’ differently.

Here is a simple example of how a frame-shift mutations works:

ONE FAT FOX ATE THE CAT

The frame-shift would delete the first ‘T’ to shift over the letters after the word containing the 'T', the sentence becomes:

ONE FAF OXA TET HEC AT

Indeed this example doesn't make the frame-shifted DNA read-out mean anything, but in the case of the nylon-metabolising enzyme’s it worked. In most other cases a frame-shift mutation is not a good thing and causes a disruption to the genes.

The evolutionist would claim that the bacteria has indeed increased information as it produced a new read-out. But this new read-out is still a subset of the already existing DNA. The frame-shift mutation did not add onto the existing DNA rather it only scrambled what was there! There is no way around it, the variation or changes cannot become massive changes needed because if all it does is re-arrange the existing DNA it is limited to that DNA. That is why if they could produce some natural process that builds on, not scrambles the existing DNA to cause a new function they would have something. If anything I would say this is a special adaptation mechanism in play, which would be creationism, rather than evolution observed.

All we have is a fast mutating species, and after millions of generations of reproduction, it still retains the basic properties as originally described when discovered in 1889 and is still identifiable as itself. You may disagree, but I find it quite evident that the DNA genome can recombine in specific pre-programmed ways for specific purposes in relation to the enviroment. All the nylon bug displays is an example of this.

That the bacteria mutate so that they can break down nylon waste as their food sources can still fall under the creationist model until the bacteria literally become something else. Then and only then will evolution have a strong case in the realm of mutations being the mechanism for the massive changes needed. (source)
How do you define "genetic information"? Is it number of base pairs, or what? (If it is, we have insertion mutations.) You can claim till you're blue in the face that mutations don't "add genetic information", but until we know what you mean by that (I have been asking for ages and have yet to get a clear answer), it's not much help.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Mutations have been scientifically observed to give an organism a new function, they have not however been observed to make the organism more complex, that is, building upon the existing DNA which must be required for evolution to advance.

Ever hear of insertions, duplications, polypoidy. All of these "build upon" existing DNA and provide opportunity for enlarging and diversifying the genome.

Ever compare genome size with complexity? Are you aware the human genome contains only about 5,000 more genes than the roundworm c. elegans? And many species have larger genomes than the human genome.

How is it that in many cases more information corresponds with less complexity?

In other words there has never been a mutation that has increased or
added to the genetic information of an organism.

Have you ever actually checked out the accuracy of that mantra for yourself? Are you not just uncritically accepting the say-so of your sources?

Have your sources told you what the unit of genetic information is? Have they described how to test the information content of a genome?

How can you make any claims about genetic information when you cannot describe what it is?


The fact is that since mutations only scramble the existing DNA to achieve a different read-out, resulting in (at times) a beneficial adaptation to the enviroment, this cannot be evolution!

It most certainly can. A beneficial trait triggers natural selection which changes the distribution of alleles in the species gene pool. This is evolution and results in species adaptation.


Even if we go beyond that questionable ground of evidence for evolution, likewise science has not observed, as a result of these mutations, an organism changing into anything other than what the organism was before the mutation.

Have you ever actually read anything about evolution from a source that is not committed to anti-evolution propaganda? I mentioned earlier that your own DNA carries about 100 novel mutations. Does that make you a different species than your parents or siblings?

It is not mutation that generates new species; it is blockage of gene flow. As long as a new mutation can be shared with other members of the species, no speciation occurs.


The change or the, "massive changes resulting from little changes"


The longest journey begins with a single step. If you want to you can walk all across the USA one step at a time. What prevents a similar evolutionary journey?


The important thing to keep in mind here is which side, evolution, or creation, stays within the realm of observable science.

Creation has never been in the realm of observable science. That is why we learn about creation through revelation. We learn about evolution through observation. And both are on the same side.

I have literally asked evolutionists on message boards, "Where is a real-world scientifically observable example of a mutation producing new information, thus increasing and building upon the existing DNA resulting in a new organism emerging from what was originally there?"

How many of them asked you to define information first? What was your reply?

Keep in mind, that mutations alone cannot adequately explain the phenomonan of evolution, yet they constantly try to prove it through that avenue.

Nonsense. Anyone conversant with evolution would be the first to tell you that mutations alone do not account for evolution.

They, fully believing the evolution theory as scientific fact have claimed that a bacterium, called the nylon bug here on out by me, with its adaptation to consuming nylon waste is scientific evidence of evolution. But how you ask? You may be thinking, "To me it sounds like adaptation to its environment", and that is exactly right.

Yes, it is exactly right. That is because adaptation is a product of evolution. That is what evolution by natural selection does: adapts a species to its environment. Any time you see adaptation, you can be sure you have seen evolution.


I will admit that this specific mutation is advantageous for the bacteria as it is able to use the broken down nylon as a new ‘food’ source but as far as added new functional genetic information to the gene pool, I don't think so.

Excuse me? The capacity to digest nylon is a new function. This new function is the result of new genetic information. New genetic information that is expressed as a new function IS new functional genetic information.

You are too busy shifting your goal posts to think straight.

A frame-shift mutation being responsible for this change in the bacteria is when one base pair is deleted, so that all the bases after that one are ‘read’ differently.

IIRC it was actually an insertion in this case, although you would also get a frameshift with a deletion.

The evolutionist would claim that the bacteria has indeed increased information as it produced a new read-out. But this new read-out is still a subset of the already existing DNA.

All DNA is a sequence of four base nucleotides. All mutations are a change in the sequence. Given these facts, how could any genetic change not be a subset of already existing DNA? What are you looking for? A fifth base nucleotide? A different genetic code? Just what is "new information"?

If anything I would say this is a special adaptation mechanism in play, which would be creationism, rather than evolution observed.

It has already been confirmed that the special adaptation mechanism in this case was a frameshift mutation. No other is needed. Especially imaginary ones that cannot be described.
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Obviously, the above quote is a malicious misrepresentation of my stand based only on Mallon's made up story -- in desperation attempt to cover-up his ignorance of the Scripture.
I didn't make anything up when I said you equate natural phenomena with godlessness. You said it yourself here:

Yet, evolutionists claim that God only created life and after that evolution happened naturally. They are ignorant of the fact that God created
You've equated natural phenomena with godlessness, whether you realize it or not. Like the development of a child within its mother's womb, it is entirely possible to be both created and a product of natural processes. You don't seem to realize this.

Such arrogance and ignorance is rarely seen. Evolutionist, like Mallon placing his worship in "Natural Science" see their position as "lofty", when in Truth, they are praising the great destroyer. Only those who are ignorant of Satan's ways, would fall for such tripe.
You appear to be getting very frustrated, Seve, insulting me and accusing me of worshiping Satan (which is against forum rules, I'll point out). In fact, you're writing with Erratic Capitalizations again. You sound like a desperate man, refusing to debate to the issues and resorting to calling your own Christian siblings pawns of the devil. Get a grip, brother!

Nature eventually destroys or makes extinct Every Living Creature. Creationists worship God who makes Every Living Creature to Live. How dare some Godless Evol like Mallon suggest that, we, who will inherit Everything, would believe that " natural science" is superior to God's Truth.
Now who is misrepresenting who? I've given all the glory to God thus far. As I've said time and again in this thread, the natural phenomena that God has ordained and sustained reflect His intelligent handiwork. Romans 1:20 tells us as much. Again, you're assuming that what is natural is necessarily exclusive of God (see what I've bolded above). This is bad theology. You are forcing yourself to turn a blind eye to God's very real handiwork in favour of appealing to miracles (which is ironic, given that you go on to accuse evolutionists of the same later on in your post). Jesus had something to say to those who seek miraculous signs in affirmation of their faith, though. Read about it in Luke 11:29.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Mallon said:
Don't make the same mistake that Seve did.....
Mallon said:
and assume that just because something happens in accordance with natural laws (like gravity, or embryological development, or weather), that this somehow means God is not involved.

Seve said:
Obviously, the above quote is a malicious misrepresentation of my stand based only on Mallon's made up story -- in desperation attempt to cover-up his ignorance of the Scripture.

I didn't make anything up when I said you equate natural phenomena with godlessness. You said it yourself here:

Is that right? Then show us the quote to support the basis of your seemingly malicious and unfounded assertion -- without editing the trust of my message. Again, I challenge you to PROVED IT by providing us directly the "quote" that you claimed "I said it here".

[Staff Edit]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Gluadys,

First of all what you listed above are examples of MICRO-evolution. It's funny how evolutionists like to talk so much about MACRO-evolution ("from goo to you" theory) but all they can offer as evidence are examples adaptation WITHIN a specie. Well for your information, Creationism has no problems with adaptations and micro-evolution. It's this BLIND LEAP in logic that says MACRO is just an extrapolation of MICRO that we don't accept because 1) there is no evidence for it and 2) there are irrefutable evidence against such a notion particularly in modern genetics.

The fact is macro-evolution from simple to complex creatures requires more than beneficial mutations and natural selection, it also requires the creation of NEW genetic information. The difference between a simple and a complex creature isn't just that the latter has more genetic materials than the other, it's that complex creatures have greater amounts of genetic information than simple creatures. Mutations and natural selections will not yield new genetic information.

Again, facts talk, conjectures walk. Cite a clear example of a new FUNCTION (sight from sightlessness, feathers from scales, etc.) that arose out of a NEW GENETIC INFORMATION CREATED. All you can do is cite supposed novel genes, but you can't cite novel functions with new information added because you say that takes time, well that's speculation, that's blind faith.

Go ahead, refute that and back it up with scientific verification.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.