Covid restrictions and churches

[Job 33:6]

Over a year into the pandemic and there are people who still aren't aware that masks prevent the spread of saliva in which viruses may travel.

 

[dms1972]

This already happened before from 1918 to 1920 because of a pandemic. Things will eventually go back to normal this time around too.

About 100 years ago...

Is that Elliot Ness and the Social Distancers (untouchables)

The 1918 pandemic was by most accounts much much worse - remember the world had hardly got over the first world war when it broke out. It also affected more otherwise healthy people.

 

[dms1972]

Over a year into the pandemic and there are people who still aren't aware that masks prevent the spread of saliva in which viruses may travel.

I don't know about other countries but in the UK we focused on hand washing (which is ok but it should not be thought of as only important during a pandemic).

However good oral hygiene should not be neglected as it can lower viral loads, and while not perhaps preventing COVID entirely might lower its spread. Chlorhexadine is an ingredient in some mouth washes and has some efficacy against viruses in saliva.

 

[dms1972]

Funny though a lot of these studies and findings are suppressed and are very hard to locate any more.

What I cannot understand is why suppress them - is it that they don't want two different scientific opinions circulating - I would guess they are passively suppressed - ie not spoken much about?

But the whole point is to find out what works best, so there is no sensible reason to suppress it if it is sound science. However there are often exceptions, or studies that don't fall in with the others. But the point of science is that things get retested several times to see if the results can be reciprocated, until it seems unlikely to have been an anomalous result.

I doubt its suppressed for sinister reasons, more likely that they have additional reasons to deem it otherwise more beneficial to wear a mask than not to.

 

[Paidiske]

Part of it, I would guess, is that in order to cut through, public health messaging has to be simple and consistent. Present people with lots of conflicting or confusing information, and they won't act on any of it, despite the necessity/urgency.

 

[dms1972]

Part of it, I would guess, is that in order to cut through, public health messaging has to be simple and consistent. Present people with lots of conflicting or confusing information, and they won't act on any of it, despite the necessity/urgency.

In your locality, do you find the churches have been given high enough priority in terms of keeping them open, or re-opening them sooner than other venues, such as nightclubs?

In the UK there was talk the COE was taking the Gov. to court (I don't know if the matter was settled) because when news of the pandemic broke they invested heavily across their congregations in equipment that would allow them to keep services going including, various forms of tunneling and air processing tools - not cheap stuff - because you need industrial level air processors for the size of some churches. I can understand some restrictions being needed even in churches, but taken considerable steps to be prepared - some might have had better climate control and air purification than in some hospital wards. Might be why many church buildings became temporary vaccination centres. But this matter of the importance of church for millions needs sorted here in the UK, I hope the COE Bishops don't back down.

 

[Paidiske]

In your locality, do you find the churches have been given high enough priority in terms of keeping them open, or re-opening them sooner than other venues, such as nightclubs?

Well, I guess that depends what you think is "high enough." We have not been able to keep open, or open sooner than other venues. The one win we have had, is to be able to welcome unvaccinated people sooner than other venues (we are limited to vaccinated-only for two weeks, where everywhere else it will be more like two months).

To be honest, if it's not safe to gather, it's not safe to gather, and I don't feel churches should be encouraged to gather when it's not safe. But it has been frustrating to see the lack of understanding of, or allowances for, religious matters more generally (things like hospital visits being a consistent issue).

 

[dms1972]

Well, I guess that depends what you think is "high enough." We have not been able to keep open, or open sooner than other venues. The one win we have had, is to be able to welcome unvaccinated people sooner than other venues (we are limited to vaccinated-only for two weeks, where everywhere else it will be more like two months).

To be honest, if it's not safe to gather, it's not safe to gather, and I don't feel churches should be encouraged to gather when it's not safe. But it has been frustrating to see the lack of understanding of, or allowances for, religious matters more generally (things like hospital visits being a consistent issue).

I think churches provide spiritual food, and that is at least equally important for the soul as ordinary food is for the body. If the issue of closing off-licenses was debated in some countries because some people are addicted to alcohol, the same consideration should have been given to christians who need fellowship and spiritual food.

In fact people who consume alcohol at indoor venues (such as nightclubs), or at home may be making themselves more vulnerable because alcohol suppresses one's immune system.

 

[RDKirk]

Germs are around, there is no way to get rid of them entirely, and it would not be beneficial to do so. People do get sick because of poor sanitary conditions and personal hygene. I'd say its both common sense, and common courtesy if you are serving others with food, or preparing food.

I only have used one and bit of another bottle of hand wash at home, in the last year and a half, I sometimes also use a small hand sanitiser, but that's not like a major amount of business for soap companies. Some households might use a bit more, but there is no need to pump the bottle three or four times for one hand wash.

Human beings have known for thousands of years, hat you don't let fecal matter come into contact with food. That's the primary concern when dressing game--people have known that for as long as humans have been killing and eating prey. Humans have known that about their fecal matter for about as long.

Whether they knew about "germs" is irrelevant: They knew to clean their hands. The elaborate pre-meal handwashing ritual of the Jews was not invented by them.

 

[dms1972]

This already happened before from 1918 to 1920 because of a pandemic. Things will eventually go back to normal this time around too.

About 100 years ago...

Any info on churches back then and how they were affected?

I appreciate your optimism based on the past, but I think that without serious and earnest prayer things will not return to 'normal', even with that the world is in some ways probably going to be a bit different after COVID. We have really gone to the other extreme in a way with this pandemic, and we are sort of crippling our hospitals at times with some of the measures being used. People with mild COVID don't need hospital admission, unless there are indications they might get worse, or they are in need of oxygen, are elderly and have no one to care for them. More district nurses would be useful.

COVID-19: How did Spanish flu change the world? | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

 

[dms1972]

Hand Washing Stops Infections—But Doctors Didn't Realize it Until the Mid-19th Century - HISTORY

 

[RDKirk]

Hand Washing Stops Infections—But Doctors Didn't Realize it Until the Mid-19th Century - HISTORY

And that's why doctors had worse live childbirth statistics than midwives.

Oh, and do you know why people are warned today that chicken carries salmonella, so chopping boards have to be cleaned after chopping chicken?

It wasn't always that way. My grandmother didn't take any great measures to keep raw chicken away from other foods. That's because when she slaughtered and dressed a chicken, she knew how to keep the entrails from contaminating the edible meat...which humans have know for thousands of years.

But the way chickens are processed in automated plants today, the edible meat is left soaking in vats along with the entrails that are yanked out without any measures to prevent contamination. Modern chicken processing is far, far nastier than a farmer's wife's processing from thousands of years ago.

 

[Paidiske]

I think churches provide spiritual food, and that is at least equally important for the soul as ordinary food is for the body.

This is true, but in extremis, there are ways of providing that food which don't require gatherings. Even given that not everyone is an internet user, I can hand-on-heart say that everyone under my pastoral care got something during lockdown.

If the issue of closing off-licenses was debated in some countries because some people are addicted to alcohol, the same consideration should have been given to christians who need fellowship and spiritual food.

I will absolutely agree that it's infuriating to see alcohol, or sports, or various other things, treated as indispensable while faith is not. But it's also the case that while people could buy alcohol during lockdown here, they couldn't congregate to drink it; and that's where the real risk is.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Hand Washing Stops Infections—But Doctors Didn't Realize it Until the Mid-19th Century - HISTORY

I know that story. Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis made the discovery. They all thought he was nuts. Which literally drove him nuts and he was institutionalized.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Any info on churches back then and how they were affected?

I appreciate your optimism based on the past, but I think that without serious and earnest prayer things will not return to 'normal', even with that the world is in some ways probably going to be a bit different after COVID. We have really gone to the other extreme in a way with this pandemic, and we are sort of crippling our hospitals at times with some of the measures being used. People with mild COVID don't need hospital admission, unless there are indications they might get worse, or they are in need of oxygen, are elderly and have no one to care for them. More district nurses would be useful.

COVID-19: How did Spanish flu change the world? | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

The only info I have is what I found on the internet. I imagine like 9/11, it will take a long time before things stabilize. And it will probably never go back to completely normal. But I'm pretty sure being able to attend church regularly will resume eventually. But that's just prognostication, and I don't have the gift of prophecy.

 

[dms1972]

I know that story. Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis made the discovery. They all thought he was nuts. Which literally drove him nuts and he was institutionalized.

I din't know that about Semmelweis being institutionalised.

Its hard to imagine nowadays, but while it was that there was no requirement, it seems quite possible some knew the benefit of hand washing. Visible dirt is more commonly the reason for handwashing, that there was no actual widely recognised or published theories of germs before a particular date is not reason enough to suppose people didn't already have an inkling about the need to wash hands after bodily functions, or touching a dead body, they done it for other than merely reasons associated with modern hygiene, as part of religious code, or because of taboos perhaps, but some probably had an inkling there was something like germs is my guess.

 

[renniks]

The only info I have is what I found on the internet. I imagine like 9/11, it will take a long time before things stabilize. And it will probably never go back to completely normal. But I'm pretty sure being able to attend church regularly will resume eventually. But that's just prognostication, and I don't have the gift of prophecy.

Eventually? We have been back to regular church for months now.. we aren't run by the goverment.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Eventually? We have been back to regular church for months now.. we aren't run by the goverment.

Mine got canceled for two weeks because someone got Covid

 

[renniks]

Mine got canceled for two weeks because someone got Covid

See that's weird to me. I don't remember church ever being cancelled because someone got the flu. Maybe in a really small church it gets canceled for a week if the pastor's sick or everybody's down with something. But now everyone knows that by entering the service they are taking a certain amount of risk, so it's what it is. If someone doesn't want to take the chance they can watch it later at home.

 

[Ceallaigh]

See that's weird to me. I don't remember church ever being cancelled because someone got the flu. Maybe in a really small church it gets canceled for a week if the pastor's sick or everybody's down with something. But now everyone knows that by entering the service they are taking a certain amount of risk, so it's what it is. If someone doesn't want to take the chance they can watch it later at home.

That's what I mean by things will probably eventually get back to normal. That includes facemask wearing and social distancing at church. Hopefully eventually Covid will become a commonplace virus like common influenza.