Discussion Covenants

[Andry]

As Franky67's thread was in relation to my comment in another thread where I said, "I would be more inclined to say that the two Covenants are as different as Darkness is to Light", then I would presume that he is speaking about the New Covenant (Post Pentecost) and the Old Covenants (Pre Pentecost). Even though I was waiting for someone to point out that the Old Covenant was not strictly a single Covenant, the question can still be deemed to be Old vs. New where the OT is comprised of a number of varing Covenants where they still come under a single umbrella.

I would be more inclined to say that the two covenants are as different as darkness is to light also.

Jer 31...The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt...."

My emphasis: it's new, and it will not be like.

So it's completely new, but if it looks like, sounds like, talks like, smell like the old covenant, that's not the new covenant. Unfortunately, many believers' understanding of the new covenant is more or less the old covenant with Jesus added in.

 

[Biblicist]

So it's completely new, but if it looks like, sounds like, talks like, smell like the old covenant, that's not the new covenant. Unfortunately, many believers' understanding of the new covenant is more or less the old covenant with Jesus added in.

Very well said indeed!

 

[Biblicist]

Obviously he's not one to deny what the scriptures say just because it's not the popular thought.

Even though the charismatically minded John Piper is certainly one of those individuals who will say what he thinks, his often extreme views particularly with his austere and heartless version of Calvinism (along with the views that you quoted regarding the OT), will not make him all that popular within Pentecostal and mainstream Evangelical circles. Even though he has a lot of good things to say, he can also go off into tangents which in my view demeen his status as a Biblical commentator.

 

[franky67]

I would be more inclined to say that the two covenants are as different as darkness is to light also.

Jer 31...The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt...."

My emphasis: it's new, and it will not be like.

So it's completely new, but if it looks like, sounds like, talks like, smell like the old covenant, that's not the new covenant. Unfortunately, many believers' understanding of the new covenant is more or less the old covenant with Jesus added in.

God is talking about the new covenant in Jer. 31;31 and the Hebrew word is a word [ Strong's 2319 ] meaning fresh, and the Hebrew word that 2391 is derived from is 2318, which means rebuild or renew.

So ALL the references to the new covenant in the NT [ except one in Hebrews ] mean qualitatively new, and The Galatians 3 verses I referenced makes it clear that Christian gentiles are grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree via being joint heirs with Christ.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise "

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

 

[Andry]

God is talking about the new covenant in Jer. 31;31 and the Hebrew word is a word [ Strong's 2319 ] meaning fresh, and the Hebrew word that 2391 is derived from is 2318, which means rebuild or renew.

So ALL the references to the new covenant in the NT [ except one in Hebrews ] mean qualitatively new, and The Galatians 3 verses I referenced makes it clear that Christian gentiles are grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree via being joint heirs with Christ.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise "

No. While the root word of 2319 may be from Strong's 2318, why didn't Jeremiah simply use that instead? All the other Scriptural references of new as from 2319 is a new king arose, a new wife, a new offering, etc, not a renewed king, or a refreshed wife. The Scriptural references for new as in refreshed in 2318 is renew the kingdom, restore the altar, etc.

It's perhaps slicing hairs and possibly a moot point on the above as Jeremiah then clarifies it even further, "it will not be like....." that's a powerful statement. And the writer of Hebrews, confirms it and uses the Greek kainos, new as in brand new. So the new covenant is not simply a rehashing of the old with Jesus added in.

Back to the covenant that God made with Abraham....it remains valid and unbroken because it was not a covenant that Abraham made with God.

 

[franky67]

No. While the root word of 2319 may be from Strong's 2318, why didn't Jeremiah simply use that instead? All the other Scriptural references of new as from 2319 is a new king arose, a new wife, a new offering, etc, not a renewed king, or a refreshed wife. The Scriptural references for new as in refreshed in 2318 is renew the kingdom, restore the altar, etc.

It's perhaps slicing hairs and possibly a moot point on the above as Jeremiah then clarifies it even further, "it will not be like....." that's a powerful statement. And the writer of Hebrews, confirms it and uses the Greek kainos, new as in brand new. So the new covenant is not simply a rehashing of the old with Jesus added in.

Back to the covenant that God made with Abraham....it remains valid and unbroken because it was not a covenant that Abraham made with God.

Yes and we are grafted into it Grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree, new, meaning new in quality, Abraham's offspring, joint heirs with Christ, Jesus is the messenger of the covenant, A the peices of the puzzle fit together, now look up "will make" from Hebrews 8:8, and you will find that it means complete, finish,

In the Emphasized New Testament Sunteleo in Heb 8:8 means "I will conclude"
New Testament , American Translation " I will conclude "
American Bible Union, Translation, " I will comlete "
The Twentieth Translation, " I will ratify "

 

[ToBeLoved]

So it's completely new, but if it looks like, sounds like, talks like, smell like the old covenant, that's not the new covenant. Unfortunately, many believers' understanding of the new covenant is more or less the old covenant with Jesus added in.

Yup.

If their pastor doesn't tell them any different, it must be true. You see it all over these forums. People constantly saying that the Bible says this or the Bible says that. Like they are remembering back to Sunday School in the 4th grade.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

What about that we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us? Isn't that new?

Or that we have the Word written on our hearts? Isn't that new?

What about that we have the mind of Christ? Is that new?

What about salvation by grace? Is that new?

Can we also agree that the Old Covenant was for the Israelite's, not Gentiles. This was NOT an all inclusive to all men covenant. This was a covenant with God's chosen people.

I think there is more new in the New Covenant, then there is redundancy. THE GENTILES ARE HAPPY!

One could bypass the Old Testament and just know the 10 commandments, if necessary. The Old Testament is only prophesy that has not been fulfilled without the New Testament. Plus we have every better blessing in Christ.

It is just the opposite. People who are really into the Old Testament take that very hard, but the Good News is in the New (both Covenant and Testament)!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

Question: Isn't the indwelling of the Holy Spirit new?

NO

• And the Lord said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, lay your hand on him" (Numbers 27:18).

• The Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he judged Israel (Judges 3:10).

• Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you (pre day of Pentecost) and will be in you (John 14:17).

• When they came to there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them (1 Samuel 10:10).

• But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul (showing that the Holy Spirit was there) a distressing Spirit from the Lord troubled him (1 Samuel 16:14).

• Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship" (Exodus 31:1-3).

The Holy Spirit has always been available to those who followed God. What has changed is His constant indwelling. It's not a new thing for His Spirit to dwell in a believer, but it is a change in His activity in that He does not come and go from persons as He did in the Old Testament.

 

[Hank77]

This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Num 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Num 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith.

We can include the Psalm where David is repenting of his sin and cries out to God, Please don't take your Holy Spirit from me. Many of us were taught that the OT believers didn't have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit but the scriptures say otherwise.

We were separated from God until the atoning death of Christ. What ever help they had from God was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God Himself.

I usually agree with what you say but I think maybe you are missing some very wonderful blessing, as I was, before I knew what the OT scriptures actually say instead of reading it with the eyes of my teachers.
The scriptures are clear that at least some of them in the OT who obeyed God in faith did have the Holy Spirit. Job said this...para.
I know my Redeemer lives and He will walk upon the earth someday and I will see Him.
Jesus said that He knew Abraham, the NT says it was Jesus who was with the people in the wilderness. When Moses saw the backside of God, who was that? It could only have been Jesus.

What about that we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us? Isn't that new?

This is what I understand, not that I am correct but it is something to think about and investigate.

No I can't say that all of the believers in the OT had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but we knew some did.

Or that we have the Word written on our hearts? Isn't that new?

Yes that is through the NC.

What about that we have the mind of Christ? Is that new?

I would say that having the mind of Christ is progressive awareness and obedience to the Holy Spirit and God's Word.
I think that we can say that some of the OT faithful did this very thing.

What about salvation by grace? Is that new?

Salvation has always been by the grace of God. There is no other way to be saved. This was a lesson learned by Job.

Can we also agree that the Old Covenant was for the Israelite's, not Gentiles. This was NOT an all inclusive to all men covenant. This was a covenant with God's chosen people.

Abraham, was a Gentile and so was Issac and Jacob was a Gentile by birth, but they were Hebrews. Jacob became the nation Israel with his sons. Not all the original Israelites were Hebrews, a mixed multitude came out of Egypt. So those 20 yrs. old and younger were not all of Hebrew parents. If someone says they are a Jew by birth they are saying they are of Hebrew descent.
So at that time the only way a Gentile could be become one of this group of God's chosen people, the Israelites, was to declare their faithfulness to the God of the Jews and obey their the Laws that were given at Mt Sinai and added to as time went by, like Ruth. A man had to be circumcised as well.
Now it is not that way. We become a member of the commonwealth of Israel by adoption through faith in the Jewish Messiah Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit just the same as the Jewish believers did and do.
So yes the NC is very different than the OC.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We can include the Psalm where David is repenting of his sin and cries out to God, Please don't take your Holy Spirit from me.

I don't know to what extent the Holy Spirit was with David, but David was not indwelled by God.

Jesus told His disciples that He had to leave and that after He left them then He could send the Holy Spirit. Can the Holy Spirit (who is God) reside/indwell within someone who has not had their sins forgiven by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ? God is holy. The Holy Spirit is God.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[Hank77]

Can the Holy Spirit (who is God) reside/indwell within someone who has not had their sins forgiven by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ? God is holy. The Holy Spirit is God.

I believe that they were forgiven when they repented and made a blood sacrifice but they had to do that over and over again and that it was temporary until Christ blood was shed for them.
I think the Father can give His Spirit to anyone He chooses to, at any time He chooses to.
The angel speaking of John the Baptist...
Luk 1:15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb;

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Yes and He came to them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We can include the Psalm where David is repenting of his sin and cries out to God, Please don't take your Holy Spirit from me. Many of us were taught that the OT believers didn't have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit but the scriptures say otherwise.

Yes.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

Question: Isn't the Word written on our hearts new?

NO. The word written is the same word, however, what it is written on is new kind of tablet. It was written on tablets of stone, now it's written on the heart. The instructions of God have not changed. According to Paul the sign of someone who has the word written on their heart is that they instinctively follow God's laws (Rom 2:12-16). There are these days many people who claim to have God's laws written on their heart yet there are many signs that say otherwise (disobedience to God's instructions, teaching others to be disobedient by telling them those instructions are abolished, etc.). Something to consider.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. ​

Note that this covenant is made specifically to the "house of Israel". Throughout the OT though, God instructs that the "stranger" (non Jew) among them be included totally when the "non Jew wanted to be part of them. Everything God had told the Jews was also to include the non Jew who wanted to participate. In Rom 2:29, Paul says, "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code (the written code being the removal of foreskin). Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God". The non-Jew is a branch grafted into the vine. We are grafted into the vine of Israel, making those who follow Him partakers of the same blessings.

 

[Frogster]

...be back soon...

 

[Frogster]

.

 

[Frogster]

be back soon...

 

[Frogster]

AMEN

Here are the blessings of the 1st covenant:

1. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.
2. Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
3. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
4. Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
5. The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
6. The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
7. The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself
8. If you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you.
9. And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.
10. The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand.
11. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.
12. The Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath

I can't comprehend that God supposedly threw those promises out the door saying His past promises were worthless and then gave us His Son to die for our sins, setting us free from the law of sin and death and then have a great mass of those who claim to be His bride exude all the curses and few if any, of the blessings.

Is 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.​

Because the Abrahamic promises were not from the old cov, in fact, the old cov voids the promises.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

Void, "out the door"....

 

[Frogster]

AMEN

Franky, every where Paul used Abraham, he warded off the old cov, law, Judaism, racism, pride, nationalism, etc. So why do you try to fish around in an old cov, to "get the blessing", when the blessing did not come to us by the law, in fact, gentiles were never even in the old cov, and the blessing came TO THE SEED, after the old cov, not during, Gal 3, and 4...

Stop covenantal fusing, it is too confusing..lol