Discussion Covenants

[Frogster]

1 Jn 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (Note that is a NT quote)

This one is too: Heb 8:6 "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises". It's superior in that HE is the mediator, giving better promises because He's a High Priest who is able to keep His promises because He does not sleep or slumber or die or get sick, like the priests before Him did. He IS able to forgive sin, give us a new heart and we can experience the joy of drawing near to God in Christ. His commands are only burdensome to a rebellious flesh which Paul tells us to bring under submission. 1 Cor 9:27 "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified".

John 3:23 says 2 commands, love God, believe, love the brethren etc.

Jesus was not talking about the full Mosaic code. These verses show the law was a burden.



This is what Jesus, Paul, Peter and James, said about the law. The law that James and Peter, did not want to burden the church with, as Peter called it a YOKE, in Acts 15. All agreeing with Paul, who in Galatians 2:4, said we did not let them enslave you with law.



Jesus..
Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.
Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Peter..
Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Paul..
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.


James...don't trouble the church by putting the full Torah on them.
Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

 

[Frogster]

The perfect laws of the Lord were never a burden.

Jesus called the man-made laws a burden. (Matthew 23:4, Luke 11:46)

What made the OC weak was the flesh. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, the perfect laws of the OT are easily doable.

In fact Jesus says anyone who doesn't obey God's laws and teaches others to disobey is the least in the kingdom. (Matthew 5:19)

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:3-4

"The law of the LORD is perfect." - Psalms 19:7

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19

These verses are not about oral law.

This is what Jesus, Paul, Peter and James, said about the law. The law that James and Peter, did not want to burden the church with, as Peter called it a YOKE, in Acts 15. All agreeing with Paul, who in Galatians 2:4, said we did not let them enslave you with law.



Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Peter..

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Paul..

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.


James...don't trouble the church by putting the full Torah on them.

Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

 

[Frogster]

Another misinterpretation is "the law of sin and death".

People think it means the perfect OT laws of the Lord.

It really means the spiritual law of "sin leads to death". (Romans 5:12, Romans 6:16, Romans 6:23, Romans 7:5, James 1:15) NKJV is clearer than NASV

But law can mean principle, and the principle of law, worked death. 2 Cor 3, it was a ministry of death, and see my siggy, you will see the principle of law working death.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

 

[Frogster]

The following is quoted from Jay Snell, writing on the subject of "covenants'

Speaking of those living during the Old Testament, he said, " they came to view the law,not as an act of grace to enable them to maintain the blessings promised through Abraham, but as a system of works, whereby they might approach God, and obtain His blessings. "

And curses.....

You have nothing to do with the old cov, it was long ago abolished.

 

[Frogster]

The Abrahamic covenant is the one we are joint heirs with Christ to inherit the blessing of, so IMHO, that is the one He meant when He said it was an everlasting covenant. Only one everlasting covenant

The everlasting one is.......the new cov, Heb 10:9 says Jesus abolished the first cov.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

Again, you're fusing the blessing from Abe, with the old cov, it was not of the old cov, that is a fact. Please study Rom 4, the promise was PRE-circumcision.

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

 

[Frogster]

What? How well did Paul do with the law? It made him miserable! Defeated! Guilt ridden! Do you not realize that the "perfect law" being discussed says that if you break even one of the commandments, you are guilty of breaking all of them? Do you not realize that it is not just adultery that is against the perfect law of God, it is lust in our hearts that Jesus said is doing the same exact thing? Can man choose to not lust by his own volition? Good luck.

The law can make no man righteous. Those who try to fulfill it in the flesh will end up in a life of Romans 7, and yes, they ARE a burden until we figure out the only way to get out of the grip of the curse of the law is to die. Unfortunately, we have assumed that means when our fleshly bodies die, but the truth is it is our fleshly natures, our tainted hearts that must die. Only then can we find that obedience, demanded under the law, and unattainable to even the most dedicated of men, IS our promised portion when we finally agree to reckon ourselves as dead. It is only then that the strength of sin in our lives is broken, for the strength of sin is the law itself and the law has dominion over us as long as we live. The solution? BE DEAD. Believe that we are no longer in the flesh and owe it nothing. It is the only way.

If we want to lift up the law as our guide, rather than relying on the indwelling Spirit to fill us and lead us and keep us from falling, we will find we are in direct opposition to God, who set us free from the law and its unyielding demands. We simply need to start with the first commandment to see the impossibility of simply following the ten commandments..

Thou shalt love thy God with ALL your heart and ALL your mind and ALL your soul and ALL your strength.

When we can finally admit that we are not doing so, and that there are rooms in our soul that Jesus has no access to even after many years of walking as His child, it is then that we are ready for the next step. But not until then.

Blessings,

Gideon

your facts about the law are correct!

 

[Frogster]

From an article by John Piper:

The OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (Jn 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?


Paul says in Rom 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.


This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Num 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Num 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith.

Frog green above, how could the OT people experience the new birth, of the new man, if it had not been created yet, until the resurrection?

Read Rom 5, the reign of grace did not come until the last Adam. The Spirit did not come until after the cross. In Rom 5 you will see the "one" word quite a few times, it was the one act, of the cross, by the one man, not until then did life giving grace come, only through the ONE man, and not until..

Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

 

[Frogster]

When I first read your post I had to go and make sure that it was actually from John Piper, where, to my utter emazement, I discovered that he actually did write it way back in 1984. I wonder if he knows that it is still on his website, where I would like to think that it would be something that he would now utterly reject. So, it seems that even the illustrious commentators can even get things about as wrong as one could ever wish to get on a particular subject.

http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-believers-experienced-the-spirit-before-pentecost

 

[Frogster]

Of course I differ with you and don't think he's wrong at all. We're saved by grace through faith. Abrahams faith was accounted unto him as righteousness, making him saved by faith. So is all that long list of others mentioned in Hebrews 11. They were saved by their faith just like we are. They had High Priests who administered the blood of the sacrificial lamb, we have the blood of Jesus that washes our sins away and He was the Lamb of God who took away our sins and there is no more sin sacrificing to be done.

I think the illustrious commentators get things wrong quite often and that's why Christians have such a skewed understanding of what the scriptures actually say.

As Piper pointed out, Jesus spoke about a "new birth" and expected that Nicodemus, knowing Torah as well as he did, should have known about it already, how do you explain that?

They were not saved until the Sprinkled blood Heb 12:24, there is no remission without His blood.

It says they were not saved until the New cov believers were. This verse is about those in Heb 11, and the perfect word is about sin, see Heb 7:11, perfection.. They were not perfected until the new cov.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[Frogster]

Obviously he's not one to deny what the scriptures say just because it's not the popular thought.

Then how about you back Piper up with text to support that quote?

 

[Frogster]

Read Galatians 3:13-29, and then look up the meaning of the two Greek words for "new", "neos" and "kainos" and then see which Greek word is used with the word "covenant"

Neos in the Greek means chronologically new, and kianos means qualitatively new

NOT...like the old..NOT...

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

The law came 430 years later, Gal 3:17, the old is not the new, the law was not of faith, gal 3:12.

 

[Frogster]

God is talking about the new covenant in Jer. 31;31 and the Hebrew word is a word [ Strong's 2319 ] meaning fresh, and the Hebrew word that 2391 is derived from is 2318, which means rebuild or renew.

So ALL the references to the new covenant in the NT [ except one in Hebrews ] mean qualitatively new, and The Galatians 3 verses I referenced makes it clear that Christian gentiles are grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree via being joint heirs with Christ.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise "

if it were a "renewed cov", that would bind the church to those exact same laws. Please prove me wrong.

Besides, abolished means abolished...an abolished thing, is not renewed..



Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

 

[Frogster]

God is talking about the new covenant in Jer. 31;31 and the Hebrew word is a word [ Strong's 2319 ] meaning fresh, and the Hebrew word that 2391 is derived from is 2318, which means rebuild or renew.

So ALL the references to the new covenant in the NT [ except one in Hebrews ] mean qualitatively new, and The Galatians 3 verses I referenced makes it clear that Christian gentiles are grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree via being joint heirs with Christ.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise "

again, the promise was about grace, not law. You're trying to fuse the old with the new, let go of the old, it is a defunct dead thing now. Gentiles were never even in the old cov, let it go, thanks! frog.

4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Frogster]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

lol...did the old cov give life? Are you sure about the green above?

Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

 

[Frogster]

Yes and we are grafted into it Grafted into the rich root of the Olive tree, new, meaning new in quality, Abraham's offspring, joint heirs with Christ, Jesus is the messenger of the covenant, A the peices of the puzzle fit together, now look up "will make" from Hebrews 8:8, and you will find that it means complete, finish,

In the Emphasized New Testament Sunteleo in Heb 8:8 means "I will conclude"
New Testament , American Translation " I will conclude "
American Bible Union, Translation, " I will comlete "
The Twentieth Translation, " I will ratify "

If it were a renewed cov, why would the hebrews grieve grace, and trample on the blood, by reverting back to the old cov?

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[Frogster]

What about that we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us? Isn't that new?

Or that we have the Word written on our hearts? Isn't that new?

What about that we have the mind of Christ? Is that new?

What about salvation by grace? Is that new?

Can we also agree that the Old Covenant was for the Israelite's, not Gentiles. This was NOT an all inclusive to all men covenant. This was a covenant with God's chosen people.

I think there is more new in the New Covenant, then there is redundancy. THE GENTILES ARE HAPPY!

One could bypass the Old Testament and just know the 10 commandments, if necessary. The Old Testament is only prophesy that has not been fulfilled without the New Testament. Plus we have every better blessing in Christ.

It is just the opposite. People who are really into the Old Testament take that very hard, but the Good News is in the New (both Covenant and Testament)!

You go girl!

 

[Frogster]

Question: Isn't the indwelling of the Holy Spirit new?

NO

• And the Lord said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, lay your hand on him" (Numbers 27:18).

• The Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he judged Israel (Judges 3:10).

• Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you (pre day of Pentecost) and will be in you (John 14:17).

• When they came to there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them (1 Samuel 10:10).

• But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul (showing that the Holy Spirit was there) a distressing Spirit from the Lord troubled him (1 Samuel 16:14).

• Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship" (Exodus 31:1-3).

The Holy Spirit has always been available to those who followed God. What has changed is His constant indwelling. It's not a new thing for His Spirit to dwell in a believer, but it is a change in His activity in that He does not come and go from persons as He did in the Old Testament.

Then why did the promised Spirit, come after the era of law? Gal 3:14. Why Pentecost, and why did the OT prophets look for grace, if they had what we do?

1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

 

[Frogster]

I believe that they were forgiven when they repented and made a blood sacrifice but they had to do that over and over again and that it was temporary until Christ blood was shed for them.
I think the Father can give His Spirit to anyone He chooses to, at any time He chooses to.
The angel speaking of John the Baptist...
Luk 1:15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb;

Yes and He came to them.

so what happened after they went to temple, and then sinned the next day?

Franky, they were still dead...dead means dead...

 

[Frogster]

Yes.

Was David still in the first Adam?

Yes, and he was still dead in sin.

As said by ToBeLoved, Jesus spoke of the Spirit to come, lets mot minimize that, thanks!

 

[Frogster]

Question: Isn't the Word written on our hearts new?

NO. The word written is the same word, however, what it is written on is new kind of tablet. It was written on tablets of stone, now it's written on the heart. The instructions of God have not changed. According to Paul the sign of someone who has the word written on their heart is that they instinctively follow God's laws (Rom 2:12-16). There are these days many people who claim to have God's laws written on their heart yet there are many signs that say otherwise (disobedience to God's instructions, teaching others to be disobedient by telling them those instructions are abolished, etc.). Something to consider.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. ​

Note that this covenant is made specifically to the "house of Israel". Throughout the OT though, God instructs that the "stranger" (non Jew) among them be included totally when the "non Jew wanted to be part of them. Everything God had told the Jews was also to include the non Jew who wanted to participate. In Rom 2:29, Paul says, "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code (the written code being the removal of foreskin). Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God". The non-Jew is a branch grafted into the vine. We are grafted into the vine of Israel, making those who follow Him partakers of the same blessings.

Green above, But that verse in Romans also says, 2 times, they do not have the law, so you need not over press what Paul was saying.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.