Covenants And Testaments

[1watchman]

The so-called Covenant Theology seems to be built on a false premise. The following letter written to one sets forth the difference between a covenant and a testament, which makes an important distinction.

- 1 Watchman

Understanding Covenants And Testaments ​

Dear friend:
We should see that a covenant is an agreement for two parties to contract to uphold certain conditions for an objective. In the Old Testament the Covenant God made with Abraham and the Israelites was to obey Him and keep His law and ordinances and He would then bless and help them. They accepted that, but rebelled against God and failed to keep the standards.

Thank God we are not under covenant now, but grace ---an offer (see Heb. 8:6-10 as to God's way for Israel). The new hope for Israelites today (not "covenant" as stated in some Bibles) is to bring them into grace through the Lord Jesus Christ in this age, and then to re-establish the nation as a blessed people in the Millennium, by a new covenant. The New Testament is a new testimony of the workings of God (not a covenant of obligations). Souls may decline to embrace the grace of God and will then forfeit blessings by choice, but Israel as a people will be restored in the future regardless of individual souls choosing to rebel.

It is important to not blur the line between Israel (a covenanted people of olden times) and the Church (the bride of Christ in grace). All references to Covenant in the Bible concerns Israel as a nation (as noted in Hebrews). The Bride of Christ today is called and brought in by grace and privilege --praise God for that! The promises of God are to a people, and individuals may perish by their rebellion.

Much more can be shown on this if one desires to study it out. It is made more clear at the Bible Counsel web site, and in many Bible Commentaries if one is interested in a study. - RLD

 

[heymikey80]

15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will (covenant [same word]) takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. Heb 9:15-18

 

[SOLICHRISTOS]

"for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." - Matt 26:28

"who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." - 2 Cor 3:6

"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." - Heb 7:22

"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." - Heb 8:6

 

[virgilio]

15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will (covenant [same word]) takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. Heb 9:15-18

Hello mikey80 greetings,
I completely agree with the mentioned scripture and I'm studying if what is the "will" involved therein the testament or in other words if what is the the amendments done in the old covenants? Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
As we know that a will can only be established when the testator die and the testimony is of force while the testator liveth. Hebrews 8:10-11 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, I will put my law unto their mind, and write them in my hearts: and i will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. v.11 And they shall teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Thank you and God bless.
virgilio

 

[SOLICHRISTOS]

This is an extremely difficult topic in my opinion. I've read much on both positions; much from the Presbyterian Covenant perspective and much from the Baptist and Evangelical position.

At the end of the day, this is one of the reason's I'm still a Presbyterian.

Much of the reason why I remain with a more "Covenant Community" view rather then an "individual believer" view is because I firmly believe in the visible and invisible church reality.

I believe that God sovereignly works through His Church to bring in the true seed of Abraham and to them He is their God and they are His people. But the actual Visible Church is not thee Church. When we are told in Acts that the Promise is for us and our children and those who are far off; I believe that the "promise" is the continuation and sustainment of the true Church through the visible Covenant Community or the Visible Church.

In this way, I see much continuity between the old physical nation of Israel, Abrahams physical seed and the sign of the covenant, to that of today's visible Church and the NT sign of the Covenant.

.......... but of course, there are many people who don't agree with this way of interpreting Scripture and I'm very understanding of the other positions. Because for me, it's just really hard to understand.

 

[virgilio]

This is an extremely difficult topic in my opinion. I've read much on both positions; much from the Presbyterian Covenant perspective and much from the Baptist and Evangelical position.

At the end of the day, this is one of the reason's I'm still a Presbyterian.

Much of the reason why I remain with a more "Covenant Community" view rather then an "individual believer" view is because I firmly believe in the visible and invisible church reality.

virgilio wrote:
I am an individual believer and I also joined fellowship with my brethren but it is done in a nondenominational organization, because I knew that God does'nt dwelt in house that was built by hands of man. For we are the temple of God dwelleth in us.

The fellowship we convene with our brothers and sisters is the visible church and the invisible church is the body or doctrine of Jesus which he said he shall built over the rock and this rock is He himself which he fulfil
when he raise from the dead through the glory of the Father.

SOLICHRISTO wrote:
I believe that God sovereignly works through His Church to bring in the true seed of Abraham and to them He is their God and they are His people. But the actual Visible Church is not thee Church. When we are told in Acts that the Promise is for us and our children and those who are far off; I believe that the "promise" is the continuation and sustainment of the true Church through the visible Covenant Community or the Visible Church.

virgilio wrote:
I agree, but I think I see that maybe there are some disparity with regards in understanding to the seed of Abraham but I agree that we can sustain it
through fellowship and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

SOLICHRISTO wrote:
In this way, I see much continuity between the old physical nation of Israel, Abrahams physical seed and the sign of the covenant, to that of today's visible Church and the NT sign of the Covenant.

.......... but of course, there are many people who don't agree with this way of interpreting Scripture and I'm very understanding of the other positions. Because for me, it's just really hard to understand.

virgilio wrote:
I agree as I had explain and I respect the position of other for we really
received in accordance of the measure of our faith.

Thank you and God Bless.
virglio

 

[heymikey80]

Hello mikey80 greetings,
I completely agree with the mentioned scripture and I'm studying if what is the "will" involved therein the testament or in other words if what is the the amendments done in the old covenants? Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The point seems to me that if the old covenant had no gap, if it were accomplishing what God intends to accomplish in entirety, then there wouldn't have been need for the second covenant to fill.

What the next verse states though, is the nature of this gap -- "for finding fault with the people he says" Heb 8:8 .

So the gap is introduced not because of an inherent lack in the old covenant, but an inherent lack in us that opened a gap for people operating under the old covenant.

The old covenant made us sensitive to a need -- a lack. God intended this gap, because through it God is introducing His beloved Son.

As we know that a will can only be established when the testator die and the testimony is of force while the testator liveth. Hebrews 8:10-11 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, I will put my law unto their mind, and write them in my hearts: and i will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. v.11 And they shall teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Yes. So there is such a covenant in force now, because Christ has died to inaugurate it.

 

[virgilio]

Hello heymikey80;
Thank you for responding in my quote and it's a pleasure to discuss and share with you important matter regarding our salvation.

The point seems to me that if the old covenant had no gap, if it were accomplishing what God intend to accomplish in entirety, then there wouldn't have been need for the second covenant to fill.

virgilio quote:
I respect your view and let me explain my position on said topic. What I see according to Heb 8-7 For " if " that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second v.8 For finding fault with
them, Let me explain that the first covenant composed of God's commandment to Israel wherein they must walk in compliance to given law. Despite the law that was given to Israel they still fail to comply on it so, God allow them to used blood of animals as offering for remission of sin.

heymikey80 quote:
What the next verse states though, is the nature of this gap -- "for finding fault with the people he says" Heb 8:8 .

virgilio quote:
I think you overlooked the context Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, you interpreted "them" as people but " "them" is an adjective word which pertain to the law which is faulty that need to be amended by a new law.

Let us see if what is the gap that need replacement in the OT Heb 10:1-4 For the law having a shadow of good things, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. v. 2 For then they have not ceased to be offered ? because that the worshipers once purged should had no more conscience of sins. v. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. v.4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

And in the proceeding verse Heb 10:5-8 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me. v.6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. v. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do the will O God.

v.8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; v.9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God, He
take away the first that he may establish the second. so, the gap is filled.

By the which will we sanctified through the offering of te body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

heymikey80 quote:
So the gap is introduced not because of an inherent lack in the old covenant, but an inherent lack in us that opened a gap for people operating under the old covenant.

The old covenant made us sensitive to a need -- a lack. God intended this gap, because through it God is introducing His beloved Son.

Yes. So there is such a covenant in force now, because Christ has died to inaugurate it.

virgilio quote:
I had already expound that the Old Covenant is the one faulty and the people despite being a sinner was so loved by God and gave his Son as propitiation of our sin. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perished, but have everlasting life.

Thank you and God Bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

The problem with interpreting "finding fault with them" as being a problem with the law is the longstanding unity of law: the law is singular; the pronoun is plural.

You can also see the "fault" as a "gap" in the law, so I've no specific theological problem with saying there's a gap in the law that needs fulfilling with the new covenant. It's just that I can't squish such a meaning into Hebrews 8:8.

 

[virgilio]

The problem with interpreting "finding fault with them" as being a problem with the law is the longstanding unity of law: the law is singular; the pronoun is plural.

You can also see the "fault" as a "gap" in the law, so I've no specific theological problem with saying there's a gap in the law that needs fulfilling with the new covenant. It's just that I can't squish such a meaning into Hebrews 8:8.

Hello heymikey80,
I think we are having language barrier here, you said that the law is singular
being in unity and if the law is united it is called a covenant or a constitution, but definitely the laws is composed of many articles and different ordinances,so we can not consider laws is singular." Them' is plural and in neuter tense and to assume this as a noun "people", why do we need to have New Covenant instead of replacing the people which is faulty.

In your last phrase you admitted that the fault is in the law, but can't squish it's meaning. Think and analyze till you see truth.

God Bless.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

There's a gap in the Law, as it was never intended to take away sins. But that's not something that the Law can be blamed for -- the term "fault" in English means that the Law is rightly blamed for such a gap.

 

[virgilio]

There's a gap in the Law, as it was never intended to take away sins. But that's not something that the Law can be blamed for -- the term "fault" in English means that the Law is rightly blamed for such a gap.

heymikey80 greetings;
I agree with your position that the law in OT cannot take away sin, the law on offerings of bulls and goats because the memoir of sins remain, so, seing its weakness and useless the mission of Jesus is change that law by offering his life, body and blood as propitiation of our sin. And his body which is broken and has been exemplified by using bread in Pass over where he give the institution or commandment which establish the New Covenant.

I had already answer this in my post # 8 of this thread. Kindly please I request to reread it once more. Thank you and God bless. Thank you and God bless.

your brother in Christ.
virgilio

yur brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

As I pointed out in post #11, in response to post #10, the term "fault" doesn't mean that. It's simply pinpointing a gap in the Law.

If it were the Law and not the people, then the Apostle couldn't in the same breath on the next verse say God found fault with the people.

 

[virgilio]

As I pointed out in post #11, in response to post #10, the term "fault" doesn't mean that. It's simply pinpointing a gap in the Law.

As what i had explain that the fault that was find in the law which is weak and useless so it was manifested in Hebrews8:6-8 But he hath obtained a "more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was establish ed upon better promises.

v.7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Take note that the subject for replacement is
the covenant or law and not the people. Yes indeed the people sinned and transgressed against the law of God and to God show his love creation gave us the ceremonial law of offering blood of bulls and goats as a n atonement for our soul. It is in this offering Jesus Christ says in Heb.10:2-10 Sacrifice and offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hast pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he,Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
v.10 By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. Jesus said "it's finished" John 19:30

If it were the Law and not the people, then the Apostle couldn't in the same breath on the next verse say God found fault with the people.

Your phrase is irrelevant because if the people is the one pinpoint as faulty,
there is no need to replace the covenant because the cursed to Adam and Eve continually in effect up to present generation.

So, we can conclude that because all man had sinned what we need is the atonement Jesus Christ has sacrificed for us.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

Moses was after the Fall. So as to Moses' real purpose, it must be important to post-fall man. It's also significant in apparently a different way to Israel.

The gap in the Law was that it couldn't fulfill its own prescription. The gap in people was that they were sinful, thus defying the Law.

Law wasn't blameable. People are.

 

[virgilio]

Moses was after the Fall. So as to Moses' real purpose, it must be important to post-fall man. It's also significant in apparently a different way to Israel.

Please provide scripture for this.

The gap in the Law was that it couldn't fulfill its own prescription. The gap in people was that they were sinful, thus defying the Law.[/quote.

Law cannot abide or fulfill itself but the gap in the law could be amendable to make it effective.

Law wasn't blameable. People are.

So, the law is blameable , it means lack of power, weak, useless why it need a replacement. Law was made to govern man which is totally depraved as a result of the fall of man.
Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ

 

[heymikey80]

Moses was after the Fall. So as to Moses' real purpose, it must be important to post-fall man. It's also significant in apparently a different way to Israel.

Please provide scripture for this.

Genesis 3:17-19
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 4:1-8

The gap in the Law was that it couldn't fulfill its own prescription. The gap in people was that they were sinful, thus defying the Law.

Law cannot abide or fulfill itself but the gap in the law could be amendable to make it effective.

No Law can change the heart. It can only lead other people to restrain the heartless on seeing their actions.

For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Gal 3:21b-22

Law wasn't blameable. People are.

So, the law is blameable , it means lack of power, weak, useless why it need a replacement. Law was made to govern man which is totally depraved as a result of the fall of man.

That's not blameable. It simply means that the Law is insufficient.

But as God has said the Law is good, then it's not to be faulted: God made it good for its purpose.

But that purpose was not to give people the ability to fulfill it.

That's the point of the change. The Christ has come -- thus the change.

 

[virgilio]

Genesis 3:17-19
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 4:1-8

virgilio quote:
The words of God here in Genesis is the cursed to couple when they transgressed against the the commandment of God not to eat the fruit of
forbidden tree. Take note that God said to Adam in thy sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So, since the fall of man it was already way of living for them to search for the bread of life which is not clearly manifested in old covenant and only been preached when Jesus has come to establish the New Covenant by offering his body and shedding of his precious blood.

[John quote=
No Law can change the heart. It can only lead other people to restrain the heartless on seeing their actions.

virgilio wrote
Yes, I agree, Wherefore the the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good.

[John quote
For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.[/color] Gal 3:21b-22

virgilio quote:
Agree again, but this law is not the covenant that are subject in our discussion; it's here

Hebrews 8:6-7 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was establish upon better promises. v.7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place sought for the second.

Hebrews 10:1-10 For the law having a shadow of good things, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
v. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have no more conscience of sin.
v.3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
v.4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
v.5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
v.6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN THOU HAST HAD NO PLEASURE.
V.7 Then said I, Lo, I (come of the volume of book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.
v.8 Above when he said, Sacrifices and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin wouldest not, neither hast pleasure therein;which offered by the law;
v.9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, tHAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
V.10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

Hope this will clarify the point of view of our discussion pertaining to new law in the New Covenant.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[riverrat]

Vilrgilio: The New Covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ. It will be in the future when Christ returns and his kingdom is established here on earth.

 

[virgilio]

Vilrgilio: The New Covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ. It will be in the future when Christ returns and his kingdom is established here on earth.

Hello riverrat greetings,
Am I reading you right? Do you mean after more or less two thousand years
since Jesus ascended the New Covenant is not yet in effect?

Jesus was the mediator of the new covenant Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgression that were under the first testament, they which are called might received the promise of eternal inheritance.
v.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity of death of the testator.
v.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead; otherwise is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

You said that "the covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ."
May I ask you for clarification, which of Israel do you mean ? the present country of Israel? was it Jacob which the angel called Israel,
Genesis 32:28? or the covenant of Israel Ephesians 2:12? please expound..

The body of Jesus which he hast offered as a replacement of the unblemished and without spot "sacred Lamb' for propitiation of our sins and the body is not the covenant but the offering that superseded the offering of bulls and goats blood under the old covenant. Hope this help.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio