Covenants And Testaments

[riverrat]

Virgilio wrote:

Hello riverrat greetings,
Am I reading you right? Do you mean after more or less two thousand years
since Jesus ascended the New Covenant is not yet in effect?

Yes, you are reading me correctly. The new covenant is not in effect at this time.

You said that "the covenant is for Israel, not the body of Christ."
May I ask you for clarification, which of Israel do you mean ? the present country of Israel?

The Israel that I am referring to is the believing remnant of Israel that will enter the earthly kingdom which will be established after the tribulation.

 

[virgilio]

Virgilio wrote:

Yes, you are reading me correctly. The new covenant is not in effect at this time.

virgilio quote:
Because you said that the new covenant is not yet in effect, you means up to date that we are still under the old covenant or Mosaic covenant? Right ?

The Israel that I am referring to is the believing remnant of Israel that will enter the earthly kingdom which will be established after the tribulation.

virgilio quote:
If you refer the remnant of Israel as the Jews that was scattered from Israel,Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not of Israel, which are of Israel. v.7 Neither, because they are seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall the seed be called. v.8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
v.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
v.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
v.29 And if ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Here is my question for you; if the new covenant is not yet establish, then what about Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Why did he said in John 19:30 it's finished; Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant which he accomplished by offering his precious, unblemished blood with out spot.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[1watchman]

We need to keep this simple: God's covenant with Israel WILL definitely be fulfilled in a NEW Covenant in the Millenium time when He restores Israel --the promise of the OT. The Lord Jesus is the way it will be fulfilled by revealing Himself to Israel in person (see what the prophet said of Israel for that coming day in Zech. 13:6). Israel as a people will repent, receive their Messiah, and be restored as a nation by God. Remember, Israel is destined to be God's earthly people forever, and the church in this age is the bride of Christ, which will be a heavenly people forever. Present day Israelites need to receive the Lord Jesus to be saved, or they will die in their sins.

This truth is often missed by those who do not recognize the difference between the OT and the NT.

- 1 Watchman

 

[virgilio]

We need to keep this simple: God's covenant with Israel WILL definitely be fulfilled in a NEW Covenant in the Millenium time when He restores Israel --the promise of the OT. The Lord Jesus is the way it will be fulfilled by revealing Himself to Israel in person (see what the prophet said of Israel for that coming day in Zech. 13:6). Israel as a people will repent, receive their Messiah, and be restored as a nation by God. Remember, Israel is destined to be God's earthly people forever, and the church in this age is the bride of Christ, which will be a heavenly people forever. Present day Israelites need to receive the Lord Jesus to be saved, or they will die in their sins.

This truth is often missed by those who do not recognize the difference between the OT and the NT.

- 1 Watchman

Hello 1 Watchman greetings;
I try to search pre millennial or pro millennial doctrine that the new covenant shall be fulfilled in millennium time and I can't find a single verse to clearly support your theology. Except in Rev 20:1-7 wherein the subject is resurrection of the saints during tribulation.
May you please expound more?
Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[riverrat]

1watchman wrote:

We need to keep this simple: God's covenant with Israel WILL definitely be fulfilled in a NEW Covenant in the Millenium time when He restores Israel --the promise of the OT. The Lord Jesus is the way it will be fulfilled by revealing Himself to Israel in person (see what the prophet said of Israel for that coming day in Zech. 13:6). Israel as a people will repent, receive their Messiah, and be restored as a nation by God. Remember, Israel is destined to be God's earthly people forever, and the church in this age is the bride of Christ, which will be a heavenly people forever. Present day Israelites need to receive the Lord Jesus to be saved, or they will die in their sins.

You just shelled the ear of corn right down to the cob!!

 

[virgilio]

1watchman wrote:


You just shelled the ear of corn right down to the cob!!

Brother riverrat greetings,

Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. John 12:24

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

quote=heymikey80;58487613Genesis 3:17-19
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 4:1-8

virgilio quote:
The words of God here in Genesis is the cursed to couple when they transgressed against the the commandment of God not to eat the fruit of
forbidden tree. Take note that God said to Adam in thy sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So, since the fall of man it was already way of living for them to search for the bread of life which is not clearly manifested in old covenant and only been preached when Jesus has come to establish the New Covenant by offering his body and shedding of his precious blood.

You requested a demonstration that Moses was intended for post-Fall man.

History demonstrates this. I quoted that, and you went on a tangent.

Returning, as demonstrated: the Law is given to post-Fall man.

 

[heymikey80]

The New Covenant was inaugurated (Heb 9:16-18) and is being served by Christians (2 Cor 3:6), not only among the Jews but also among the Gentiles (Rom 9:24).

12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Eph 2:12-19

 

[virgilio]

You requested a demonstration that Moses was intended for post-Fall man.
quote=heymikey80;58487613Genesis 3:17-19
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 4:1-8
History demonstrates this. I quoted that, and you went on a tangent.

Returning, as demonstrated: the Law is given to post-Fall man.

heymikey80 greetings,
I read again the scripture you provide and almost everything is almost not related to new covenant. Gen 3:17-19 was a cursed to man from past up to present times that a man must work t find bread as his food. Please don't take this literally but in spiritual perspective that you must take the cross of Jesus and learn of his words.

Man today does not comprehend if what Jesus said " I am the bread of life" which was the bread he teaches us in Matthew and Luke that Father give us our daily bread. It is spiritual food we needed for our spiritual growth.

John 6:27 Jesus said, work not the meat that perisheth but seek the food that endureth in everlasting life that the Son of man shall give you because he was the one sealed by the Father. This the flesh and blood of Jesus he used as sacrifices or redemption of the sin of the world.

In Exodus all written there is mosaic law or the covenantal law which no one will be justified and in the last parts of Exodus is the OT offering of blood of animals which is mentioned by Jesus in Hebrews 10:8-9 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings for sin thou wouldest not, neither hast pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; v.9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will O God. He take away the first, that he may establish the second.

Deuteronomy -the verse you gave here has nothing to do with the New Covenant except it reminded us not to add to the God's word.

Thank you and God bless.
you brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[virgilio]

The New Covenant was inaugurated (Heb 9:16-18) and is being served by Christians (2 Cor 3:6), not only among the Jews but also among the Gentiles (Rom 9:24).

12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to G is alredy establishod in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Eph 2:12-19

heymikey80 greetings,
I agree that the verse in Hebrews 9:16-18, 2 Corinthians 3:6 & Romans 9:4
manifested thaat the New Covenant is already established but the the fulfillment of the prophesy ( Heb 8:10-11) was not clearly indicated if the laws which superseded the law in the OT were already written or had been known to the believer.

I also agree that it is through the shedding of blood as a sacrificed for us the new covenant has been established Heb 10:20 & Heb 12:24.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

heymikey80 greetings,
I read again the scripture you provide and almost everything is almost not related to new covenant. Gen 3:17-19 was a cursed to man from past up to present times that a man must work t find bread as his food. Please don't take this literally but in spiritual perspective that you must take the cross of Jesus and learn of his words.

... and spun off on a tangent.

 

[virgilio]

... and spun off on a tangent.

Thank you for your kind and non sense response.

God bless you.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[Helenm12]

It's also important to understand the original meaning of the word covenant - or brit in Hebrew. A covenant literally means a cut. In Ancient Israel, when an agreement was made with God, it would be sealed with a sacrifice - the covenant would be cut into the flesh of an animal. So, when God gives Abraham the Abrahamic covenant, Abraham cuts animals into pieces and sacrifices them. The covenant is then remembered by circumscision (the cutting of flesh). The word in Hebrew for circimscision literally means cut, which is the same word we use for covenant. When Paul speaks of circumscising our hearts in Romans, he is using the word for covenant. The new covenant parallels the Abrahamic covenant of circumscision, but this one is cut into our hearts through grace.

 

[virgilio]

It's also important to understand the original meaning of the word covenant - or brit in Hebrew. A covenant literally means a cut. In Ancient Israel, when an agreement was made with God, it would be sealed with a sacrifice - the covenant would be cut into the flesh of an animal. So, when God gives Abraham the Abrahamic covenant, Abraham cuts animals into pieces and sacrifices them. The covenant is then remembered by circumscision (the cutting of flesh). The word in Hebrew for circimscision literally means cut, which is the same word we use for covenant. When Paul speaks of circumscising our hearts in Romans, he is using the word for covenant. The new covenant parallels the Abrahamic covenant of circumscision, but this one is cut into our hearts through grace.

Hello Helenm12,

Thank you for your incremental response which added my idea about the meaning of “brit” or covenant W
which literally means a “cut” and it really had the same meaning in Webster as “ a agreement between two or more persons to do or refrain from doing some act; or a contract.


So, the agreement between God and Israel was sealed by cutting of the animal flesh and shedding of it’s blood and make it as an offering to God. The same way Abraham’s and his household was circumcised in flesh in manner of the covenant. Mosaic covenant or covenantal law was given to Moises and Israel to cut or stop men from being disobedient and transgressing the commandment of God.


The new covenant or grace covenant is cutting in our hearts or cut iniquities against our Lord God. I believed that God’s love to men has a solemn purposed when he sent begotten Son to be the mediator of the new covenant.


For the law having the shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never by those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers there unto perfect. Wherefore when Christ come to the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God, He take away the first, that he may establish the second or the new covenant. By which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once and for all.


So, where is now the grace? By circumcision of the heart (flesh)? How by abiding the law? But it is said that by means of law no one will be justified.
[FONT=&quot]Shall we take Jesus death for granted? Do we know the significance of the Lord’s Supper and why did he said, I shall not drink this wine until the kingdom of God?

I believed that unless one understand how we can eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood the spirit of grace and the seal of the Holy Spirit was not yet within [/FONT]us.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ
virgilio

 

[heymikey80]

Moses was after the Fall. So as to Moses' real purpose, it must be important to post-fall man. It's also significant in apparently a different way to Israel.

The gap in the Law was that it couldn't fulfill its own prescription. The gap in people was that they were sinful, thus defying the Law.

Law wasn't blameable. People are.

So because the Law was delivered to post-fall people, it was to make them aware of a problem with them.

The Law describes the purpose of God for His people. Its fulfillment is in Christ, and then in the glory of the resurrection and the New Creation it will describe Christ's people -- the people of God.

 

[from scratch]

Virgilio wrote:

Yes, you are reading me correctly. The new covenant is not in effect at this time.

virgilio quote:
Because you said that the new covenant is not yet in effect, you means up to date that we are still under the old covenant or Mosaic covenant? Right ?

The Israel that I am referring to is the believing remnant of Israel that will enter the earthly kingdom which will be established after the tribulation.

virgilio quote:
If you refer the remnant of Israel as the Jews that was scattered from Israel,Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not of Israel, which are of Israel. v.7 Neither, because they are seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall the seed be called. v.8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
v.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
v.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
v.29 And if ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Here is my question for you; if the new covenant is not yet establish, then what about Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Why did he said in John 19:30 it's finished; Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant which he accomplished by offering his precious, unblemished blood with out spot.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

Please explain which new covenant Jesus was talking about in Matt 26:28, MK 14:24, LK 22:20 and Heb 10:9. Thanks.

Oh it would help some to explain LK 16:16 too.

 

[from scratch]

Hello 1 Watchman greetings;
I try to search pre millennial or pro millennial doctrine that the new covenant shall be fulfilled in millennium time and I can't find a single verse to clearly support your theology. Except in Rev 20:1-7 wherein the subject is resurrection of the saints during tribulation.
May you please expound more?
Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

That is your problem. You search doctrine instead of the Bible. The best thing you can do for yourself is read all the whole Bible a couple times cover to cover. Did I get enough references about what I mean when I say read the Bible?

 

[virgilio]

So because the Law was delivered to post-fall people, it was to make them aware of a problem with them.

The Law describes the purpose of God for His people. Its fulfillment is in Christ, and then in the glory of the resurrection and the New Creation it will describe Christ's people -- the people of God.

heymikey80 greetings,
I had noticed that you continue your arguments about the gap or faulty law, but you are not clarifying if what is law the law that is subject for discussion.
Have you read any law mentioned in book Hebrews which the subject of
amendments? None..Covenant means an agreement between two or more persons to do or refrain from doing some act it is also the same with covenant between God and man. ( covenant= to cut, stop, refrain)
In OT the law was given to Moses because of iniquities of man and this covenant was sealed by offering of animals and their blood which was use as an offering for atonement of the sin of man. This the law which scripture
said is faulty because it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.Heb10:4

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepare me: in burnt offering and sacrifices for sin thou hast no pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come todo thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.By which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purgr your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than those of Abel. This
signify the voice that Paul has heard from the mouth of Jesus on his way to Damascus Acts 22:14

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[virgilio]

Originally Posted by virgilio

http://www.christianforums.com/t7585996-post58505098/#post58505098

Hello 1 Watchman greetings;
I try to search pre millennial or pro millennial doctrine that the new covenant shall be fulfilled in millennium time and I can't find a single verse to clearly support your theology. Except in Rev 20:1-7 wherein the subject is resurrection of the saints during tribulation.
May you please expound more?
Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

That is your problem. You search doctrineinstead of the Bible. The best thing you can do for yourself is read all the whole Bible a couple times cover to cover. Did I get enough references about what I mean when I say read the Bible?

​

Hello scratch,
Above is my response to 1 watchman and not for you, it's okay that you jump in but, please in doing that may you please gave a responsible commentary wherein I can learn something and be no too much sarcastic.

I'm not asking you so, that is not really your problem, so I beg you please be gentle to a Christian like you.
Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[virgilio]

hi scratch,

I would emphasis first the OT law which given to Moses which was composed of commandments to Israel.

Hebrews 9:18-22 Where upon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses have spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water and scarlet wool, and hyssop and sprinkled both the book , and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.


10:1 For the law possesses a shadow of the good things to come but not the reality itself, and is therefore completely unable, by the same sacrifices offered continually, year after year, to perfect those who come to worship. 10:2 For otherwise would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers would have been purified once for all and so have no further consciousness of sin?

10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year after year. 10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins 10:5 So when he came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.
10:6 “Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in.
10:7 “Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come – it is written of me in the scroll of the book – to do your will, O God.’”
10:8 When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them” (which are offered according to the law), 10:9 then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second. 10:10 By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:1-10

In the new covenant Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 Think that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. So the scripture above show that it was the offering of animals and are the one abolished and he substituted his own body and blood as a sacrificed for remission of our sins.

Paul had given us a better contribution in 1 Corinthians 11:23-26
11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread, 11:24 and after he had given thanks he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 11:25 In the same way, he also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, every time you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 11:26 For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.



And behind the sacrifices of Jesus hidden there was the mystery of his glory that a man without veil could learn through the revelation of the Holy Ghost which shall be laws that shall be written to comers.


Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio