Covenant and New Covenant theology
- Thread starter Douggg
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How were they saved by "Judaism", without being a part of the Body of Christ?
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
How many Gospels are in the verse above?
You have to ignore this verse to make your two Gospels doctrine work.
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Thera
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Seriously? I agree that the Mosaic Covenant is not a gospel - it's the Bad News (we are sinners) which makes the Good News good (Jesus fulfilled the law and died in our place). However, I would have expected eunuchs were treated as circumcised, given that a male can't get rid of the important part without getting rid of the extra bit that determines circumcision...
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As we've been posting.....there is ONE Gospel that was offered to Daniel's people first (as they were in a temporary covenant with God....but that was all changing....and the New Testament was written during this transition period. Then this same Gospel went out to the rest of the world (to the Gentiles).
I can agree there is a Gospel of the Kingdom.....but i can't agree with how you're defining it. Jesus did tell His disciples the Old Covenant was going to dissolve (and your post, ironically, refers to the passage):
Matthew 5 ~ 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
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I'm not sure.....but I believe they were excluded from the Israelite assembly. That's why this event was so meaningful:
Acts 8
Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
But....it wasn't supposed to be that way. Gentiles and eunuchs were never supposed to be excluded from the assembly.
Isaiah 56
3Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”
And let the eunuch not say,
“I am but a dry tree.”
4For this is what the LORD says:
3Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”
And let the eunuch not say,
“I am but a dry tree.”
4For this is what the LORD says:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases Me
and hold fast to My covenant—5I will give them, in My house and within My walls,
a memorial and a name
better than that of sons and daughters.
I will give them an everlasting name
who choose what pleases Me
and hold fast to My covenant—5I will give them, in My house and within My walls,
a memorial and a name
better than that of sons and daughters.
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.
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I think there's confusion in that term ('Judaism').
As it's inferred in Luke 24.....the Gospel is the fulfillment of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures. Can't it appropriately be labeled as Biblical Judaism (as opposed to modern-day Judaism)? Biblical Judaism ....based on the Sinai Covenant and temporary religious Temple system....ended (came to its fulfillment/conclusion....completeness) when that all was fulfilled and then the system on earth (the copy) disappeared as the author of Hebrews and Jesus stated it would:
Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.
Matthew 5:17-18 ~ 17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
Matthew 5:17-18 ~ 17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
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You should know that only one person ever kept the law of Moses, and you should be able to read what Paul clearly said in Romans 1:16 about there being only one Gospel, taken "first" to the Jews, and then to the Greeks.
You should also know that water baptism is not the focus of the word "baptism", as revealed below by Peter.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
See Luke 3:16 if you have any questions about Christ baptizing with the Spirit.
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As BABerean2 pointed out....no one (except Jesus) could "keep the Law of Moses". In fact....it's written with the expectation it wouldn't be followed (that's the purpose of the sacrifices).
Context of timing is very important.
Acts 2 was in 30 AD.....God was still confirming His covenant with Daniel's people. At the end of this 7 year period (27 AD - 34 AD) the Gospel was to go out to the Gentiles (and it did! Right on time! ).
Then the copy of the True Tabernacle "disappeared " in 70 AD. Hebrews is dated around 63/64 AD....so "soon" was 6-7 years.
Hebrews 8:13 ~ 13By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.b 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise.
24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.b 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise.
24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
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Exactly! There is so much to the baptism of the Spirit (and of fire).
Pentecost was known as the remembrance of the giving of the Torah on Mt Sinai (entering into the Mosaic Covenant). That was a shadow of what was to occur after Jesus's ascension. The promise of the Law being written on their hearts was fulfilled at Pentecost in 30 AD (the sign of the New Covenant):
Acts 1~ 4And while they were gathered together,a He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.b”
2 Corinthians 3:3 ~ Clearly, you are a letter from Christ showing the result of our ministry among you. This “letter” is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts.
The same thing happened to the Gentiles....and, in the spirit of unity, Peter was there as a witness and to participate:
Acts 10 ~
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”
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EddieStormX
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Matthew 13:14 & 15
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.
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About that promised kingdom:
Hebrews 12 ~ 22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels
Heavenly Jerusalem/Jerusalem above = the New Covenant according to Galatians 4:24-26:
Galatians 4
24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Under the New Covenant....the new Israel of God....included all those that were faithful to God (no exclusions). This is to whom the kingdom was given that would bear fruit (as Jesus warned the chief priests and Pharisees recorded in the Parable of the Wicked Tenants). 24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Ephesians 2:19-22 ~ Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom YOU ALSO ARE BEING BUILT TOGETHER FOR A DWELLING PLACE OF GOD IN THE SPIRIT.
The process was still occurring at the time Paul wrote this. They were "being built" for a dwelling place of God. But the hope of the New Covenant was that God would dwell with His people (the True Tabernacle)....and that hope was fulfilled (and still is being fulfilled).
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Guojing
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Well that was what Acts 2 literally stated, so I am just repeating it.
I never stated any of them could keep the Law fully, but God commanded them to follow the Law, so to show faith in God, they had to do it. God provided the system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to keep it.
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Guojing
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Again you are anticipating revelation. What Peter realized after he met Cornelius was a change in God's dealing with man, Israel was no longer God's favored nation by the time Acts 10 arrived.
In Acts 2, if you read it literally, that was what Peter required Israel to do.
I never stated any of them could keep the Law fully, but God commanded them to follow the Law, so to show faith in God, they had to do it. God provided the system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to keep it.
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King David committed adultery, and conspired to have Uriah killed so that he could have his wife.
Therefore, he did not do it.
You are still ignoring Romans 1:16, which kills your Two Gospels doctrine.
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Guojing
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No one said he did. But did he offer animal sacrifice for that sin? I am sure he did. But mischieveously, you remove that last sentence I made from that paragraph, quoting me out of context.
That was the point I was making. He could not have told God "Since I cannot keep the Law perfectly, I am not going to even try to follow the Law as best as I could".
As for your point in Romans, I already did many times but you refuse to read it. By the time Paul came into the picture, yes, the previous gospel of the kingdom can no longer save.
But Paul was not saved in Acts 2.
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