Covenant and New Covenant theology

[mkgal1]

This is a non salvfic issue so whether Paul was the first member of the body of Christ, we are free to believe either way

Of course you are free to believe either way.

 

[BABerean2]

I believe none of the other 12 are in the Body of Christ, they are in charge of Israel. Recall Jesus promised them that, when he returns for Israel, they will be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Thus, I can accept that, when Jesus returns, they will definitely be included. So my answer to you is "Yes, their sins are forgiven".

Based on what they told Israel in their letters placed at the end of the NT, they are all looking forward to Jesus returning for Israel.

You can only make this extreme viewpoint work by ignoring the fulfillment of the New Covenant. I asked you before if you know of anyone else with this same viewpoint.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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[Guojing]

You can only make this extreme viewpoint work by ignoring the fulfillment of the New Covenant. I asked you before if you know of anyone else with this same viewpoint.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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It’s not even a strong viewpoint.

Scripture never stated that the 12 are in the body of Christ. You have to read that term in

 

[BABerean2]

It’s not even a strong viewpoint.

Scripture never stated that the 12 are in the body of Christ. You have to read that term in

Act_2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115



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[Guojing]

Act_2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115



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Called out assembly is not equivalent to the body of Christ.

The latter is a secret that was first revealed to Paul

 

[BABerean2]

Called out assembly is not equivalent to the body of Christ.

The latter is a secret that was first revealed to Paul

Are you claiming Peter and Paul were preaching different Gospels?


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[Guojing]

Are you claiming Peter and Paul were preaching different Gospels?


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Thought we already covered that in this thread?

 

[mkgal1]

Thought we already covered that in this thread?

Considering we're now at page 38....we may need a refresher of how that was answered before.

 

[mkgal1]

For your 2nd question, there is a difference between preaching

• In wickedness, you have killed your Messiah but God raised him from the dead as a sign that he is truly the Son of God, so repent of that wicked deed and be water baptized, and you will be saved from your sins in the future. (Acts 2:36 Acts 3:14-21 Acts 5:30 Acts 7:52 )

versus

• Christ has died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

Found it. This quote is from this post: Covenant and New Covenant theology


So.....in other words (@Guojing), in answer to BABerean2's question:

Are you claiming Peter and Paul were preaching different Gospels?
​

....as a choice between "yes" or "no".....you would answer "yes". Correct? I don't wish to misrepresent your beliefs

 

[mkgal1]

Acts 5 is a good example of how there were two Israels at that point in time (True/faithful Israel and apostate/unbelieving Israel).

Peter is of the faithful/True Israel....circumcised in heart and flesh. He's speaking here to apostate religious leaders of whom belonged to unbelieving/apostate Israel only circumcised in the flesh.

See how Peter separates himself from them in blame regarding the crucifixion of Jesus ("you had killed")...but is united as far as their fathers go ("our fathers")?:

Acts 5
27They brought them in and made them stand before the Sanhedrin, where the high priest interrogated them. 28“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us responsible for this man’s blood.” 29But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men.

30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging Him on a tree.

31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”​

 

[BABerean2]

Thought we already covered that in this thread?

A simple yes, or no, would be good for those of us who have a New Testament to read.

We especially want to compare what you are saying to Galatians 1:6-9.



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[Guojing]

Found it. This quote is from this post: Covenant and New Covenant theology


So.....in other words (@Guojing), in answer to BABerean2's question:

Are you claiming Peter and Paul were preaching different Gospels?
​

....as a choice between "yes" or "no".....you would answer "yes". Correct? I don't wish to misrepresent your beliefs

Gospel means good news. Yes, if you cannot see that the 2 good news are significantly different in content, we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Guojing]

A simple yes, or no, would be good for those of us who have a New Testament to read.

We especially want to compare what you are saying to Galatians 1:6-9.



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You are fond of anticipating revelation.

Paul wrote Galatians after the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15, where it was decided that Paul's gospel was legitimate and the only gospel for gentile believers to follow.

So for gentile believers who are going to be saved thru the fall of Israel, the gospel of grace revealed to Paul is the only valid gospel for them.

Prior to Acts 15, it was the gospel of the kingdom for Israel, preached by both Jesus and the 12.

 

[BABerean2]

So for gentile believers who are going to be saved thru the fall of Israel, the gospel of grace revealed to Paul is the only valid gospel for them.

How do you explain the fact that the Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church"?

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[Guojing]

How do you explain the fact that the Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church"?

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Yes, in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

As Acts 15 and Galatians 2 indicated, Acts was a transitional period, where the gospel of the Kingdom is fading away, as the nation Israel rejected their Messiah.

We now know it began with the stoning of Stephen, but Peter, James and the others would not have known then. That was why their letters, placed at the end of the NT, indicated they still believe Israel has not fallen.

Acts 21:20 and Acts 22:12 indicated this transition where the Law of Moses still held for all Jews during that period, while gentiles who believed were exempted from the Law

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

As Acts 15 and Galatians 2 indicated, Acts was a transitional period, where the gospel of the Kingdom is fading away, as the nation Israel rejected their Messiah.

We now know it began with the stoning of Stephen, but Peter, James and the others would not have known then. That was why their letters, placed at the end of the NT, indicated they still believe Israel has not fallen.

Acts 21:20 and Acts 22:12 indicated this transition where the Law of Moses still held for all Jews during that period, while gentiles who believed were exempted from the Law

If you think an entire nation will one day accept Christ as Messiah, based on their race, you have cut the following out of your Bible.


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:



There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church found in Romans 11.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (See Romans 9:27)


Dispensationalists often pervert Romans 11:26, by changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing. It is a corruption of the text.

They often claim God will deal with Israel after the Times of the Gentiles comes to fullness, although we find in Luke 21:24-28 that this time period ends at the Second Coming of Christ.

They often claim Israel is now blinded, although the text says part of Israel is blinded and part is not blinded.

They ignore the two different groups of "they" in Romans 11:28, and claim Israel can be both the enemy and the elect at the same time. Paul begins the chapter with two different groups of Israelites, one faithful to God and one not, and he ends it in the same way.


The saddest part of this doctrine occurs when a Dispensationalist tells a modern Orthodox Jew they are God's chosen, and then they fail to share the Gospel with them. This is a perversion of the Gospel.

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[mkgal1]

You are fond of anticipating revelation.

Paul wrote Galatians after the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15, where it was decided that Paul's gospel was legitimate and the only gospel for gentile believers to follow.

So for gentile believers who are going to be saved thru the fall of Israel, the gospel of grace revealed to Paul is the only valid gospel for them.

Prior to Acts 15, it was the gospel of the kingdom for Israel, preached by both Jesus and the 12.

The Gospel never changed. To identify what the Gospel is...I'd suggest reading Acts 2 - Peter’s sermon and Acts 13 - Paul's sermon. That may be the simplest way to sum up what the Gospel actually is.

If someone is preaching something different than what Peter and Paul said - recorded in that text - then it is they that are preaching a different Gospel. There was no disunity between Jesus, the disciples, and Paul.

I'd recommend reading both chapters....but here are some highlights from Paul's sermon:

Acts 13
16Paul stood up, motioned with his hand, and began to speak: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who fear God, listen to me!


22After removing Saul, He raised up David as their king and testified about him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart; he will carry out My will in its entirety.’a23From the descendants of this man, God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as He promised. 24Before the arrival of Jesus, John preached a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25As John was completing his course, he said, ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not that One. But He is coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’b26Brothers, children of Abraham, and you Gentiles who fear God, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.​

 

[mkgal1]

Paul wrote Galatians after the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15, where it was decided that Paul's gospel was legitimate and the only gospel for gentile believers to follow.

I want to make sure I am understanding you.

Are you suggesting it was Peter’s gospel up against Paul's gospel at the Council of Jerusalem?

 

[keras]

Yes, in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

As Acts 15 and Galatians 2 indicated, Acts was a transitional period, where the gospel of the Kingdom is fading away, as the nation Israel rejected their Messiah.

We now know it began with the stoning of Stephen, but Peter, James and the others would not have known then. That was why their letters, placed at the end of the NT, indicated they still believe Israel has not fallen.

Acts 21:20 and Acts 22:12 indicated this transition where the Law of Moses still held for all Jews during that period, while gentiles who believed were exempted from the Law

Guojing, you don't make any distinction between Israel and Judah.
In over 160 Bible verses, those 2 entities are mentioned separately. Why do you combine them?
It was God's will that they be separated; 1 Kings 12:24, and they still remain as two peoples. There has been some intermingling, but essentially they are different peoples.

That they have not yet rejoined, is obvious from Ezekiel 37, as the prophesied Blessings have not been received yet.
Jesus came to save the house Of Israel. Matthew 15:24 If you believe the Jewish people are the only Israel, then Jesus failed in His mission. But if the Northern ten tribes of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria, are still scattered among the nations, as stated in Deuteronomy 28:64-67, John 7:35, then Jesus was successful and we Christians are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16

 

[Douggg]

That they have not yet rejoined, is obvious from Ezekiel 37, as the prophesied Blessings have not been received yet.

Ezekiel 37 is a process, not the everything prophesied fulfilled at once.

Israel, following Solomon's reign, divided into north and south nations geographically, as well, as two nations structurally.

Israel today is one nation. Containing the territories of both the north and south. One nation. Not two different governments. Not two different military's. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.