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- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
- Start date
I will add this:
The fact that we have three judgments in Revelation, consisting of seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials (bowls), is another thing that confirms for me this is judgment of Jerusalem/Israel we read in Revelation. It is the fulfillment of what God said to Israel in Leviticus 26.
*The 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled in Christ. When Christ died, God removes His name from the temple by tearing the veil in half. Christ has made an end of sin (for all who would trust in His sacrifice).
*The temple is destroyed in 70 AD removing the one thing that represents the Old Covenant which God had with Israel. He had them construct the tabernacle so He would dwell among them. When they got into the Promised Land, Solomon constructed the temple, which replaced the tabernacle. That temple is destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, and rebuilt with Cyrus decree. That same temple is renovated under Herod and then called Herod's Temple.
The destruction of Herod's Temple in 70 AD along with the exile that followed, is God again saying to Israel you are not my people as He did in Hosea 1:9:
9 And the Lord said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God.”
This is why dispensationlism is totally flawed insisting that the future is about Israel. The New Covenant shows that God's people, His "True Israel" are those who come to Christ receiving the Spiritual circumcison, which is what Paul is saying in Romans 2:28:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
This is the "Abrahamic Covenant", which the Jews had totally missed what outward circumcision was about!
Romans 2:29:
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
The "True Jew" is circumcised in THE HEART!!! Paul makes this point in Philippians 3:3 where he says:
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
This is nothing new, because this is what God said to Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, which Paul reiterates in Romans 10:5:13!
God now calls "His People" ALL WHO TRUST IN CHRIST!!!
The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials (bowls) of Revelation are coming against Jerusalem/Israel!!!
The fact that we have three judgments in Revelation, consisting of seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials (bowls), is another thing that confirms for me this is judgment of Jerusalem/Israel we read in Revelation. It is the fulfillment of what God said to Israel in Leviticus 26.
*The 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled in Christ. When Christ died, God removes His name from the temple by tearing the veil in half. Christ has made an end of sin (for all who would trust in His sacrifice).
*The temple is destroyed in 70 AD removing the one thing that represents the Old Covenant which God had with Israel. He had them construct the tabernacle so He would dwell among them. When they got into the Promised Land, Solomon constructed the temple, which replaced the tabernacle. That temple is destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, and rebuilt with Cyrus decree. That same temple is renovated under Herod and then called Herod's Temple.
The destruction of Herod's Temple in 70 AD along with the exile that followed, is God again saying to Israel you are not my people as He did in Hosea 1:9:
9 And the Lord said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God.”
This is why dispensationlism is totally flawed insisting that the future is about Israel. The New Covenant shows that God's people, His "True Israel" are those who come to Christ receiving the Spiritual circumcison, which is what Paul is saying in Romans 2:28:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
This is the "Abrahamic Covenant", which the Jews had totally missed what outward circumcision was about!
Romans 2:29:
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
The "True Jew" is circumcised in THE HEART!!! Paul makes this point in Philippians 3:3 where he says:
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
This is nothing new, because this is what God said to Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, which Paul reiterates in Romans 10:5:13!
God now calls "His People" ALL WHO TRUST IN CHRIST!!!
The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials (bowls) of Revelation are coming against Jerusalem/Israel!!!
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Funny my Bible says Gods wrath will be poured out on all the inhabitants of the earth.
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
The Jews time of cleansing and purification is almost over, (when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in) then God will remove ungodliness from Jacob as prophesied.
But then begins the wrath of God being poured out on all the nations of the earth. "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth!"
When you see the upcoming signs in the sun, moon and stars then these things will become self evident.
Revelation 6:12-17
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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However, isn't that speaking God's wrath on the last day? Context is everything when it comes to God's wrath. Why do you think it says they "STORE UP WRATH...in THE DAY OF WRATH? That speaks to the last day.
Maintain the context! This is the apostle explaining what one sows, they reap whether it be in this life or the next. The point being that in these things there is a witness against us all as we reap from the evil we do. Why do you think it starts "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment,..."? The passage is basically saying no one escapes God's judgment...it will come in our life on on the last day.
Actually not. This is simply apocalyptic language of God's judgement. Language that God uses consistently in prophecy. Isaiah 13 is a prime example as God is about to judge Babylon by the Medes. Jesus used that very language in Matthew 24:29...and that is why he used it, it comes from Isaiah 13:10, 11!
Gods wrath was executed by those on the earth at that time.
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The appalling non-humorous part is God's righteous justice and wrath is being poured out this very moment (Rev. chapter 9) that most oblivious to, eg, IIThess.2:11, 12 also this very moment.
iow we are at the latter part of the 'last days.'
Jack
btw render "Sanctuary" at IIThess.2:4; Rev.11:1 and even Jn.2:19.
iow we are at the latter part of the 'last days.'
Jack
btw render "Sanctuary" at IIThess.2:4; Rev.11:1 and even Jn.2:19.
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That is the point Jack. Hebrews 12 reminds us that believers as God's children, are disciplined when we step out of His will in disobedience. It make the very point that if we don't see God's discipline when we disobey we are "illegitimate" children...ie lost!
Now...when we read Romans 2:1-10 the apostles TOTAL argument is that NO ONE escapes God's judgment, because a time in which God will judge all is inevitable.
It's pretty straight forward. It reminds you of David's prayer in Psalm 73! David states because he did not see the wicked receiving judgment...then he thought about it, realizing His chastisement came from God for correction, while God oftentimes allows the wicked to store up their wickedness.
A tremendous Psalm it is!
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I'm going to show you why I hold your view to be erroneous. You are basically including prophecy that is already fulfilled *if* you read prophecy, and don't READ INTO prophecy:
*Babylon was used to wipe out Jerusalem and Judah. You have to pay attention to what Jeremiah is saying, and when it happened. Babylon destroys Jerusalem in Jeremiah 39...Zedekiah was king of Judah. God tells us in Jeremiah 27:8 that he would put ALL NATIONS under Nebuchadnezzar.
*Your Jeremiah 52 passage is again fulfilled prophecy! God used Chaldea (Persia), to judge Babylon. It happens in Daniel 5 at Belshazzar's feast where Belshazzar, in a drunken stupor, defiles vessels taken from the temple (which Nebuchadnezzar had taken). Because of that God judged Belshazzar by "the handwriting on the wall" as Daniel is called to interpret it for Belsazzar. That very night Darius the Mede captured Babylon and Chaldea (takes over the empire). This was also prophesied in Isaiah 13:17.
It already happened vinsight4u! You cannot make "Mystery Babylon" literal Babylon. You have to ask yourself "why does John call her "Mystery Babylon"...and when you search the OT prophets you find out it is Jeremiah gives us the hint that Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" when He said this to them Judah in Jeremiah 3:2, 3:
2 “Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
3 “Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.
Isaiah says of Jerusalem in Isaiah 1:21:
21 How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.
It is Jeremiah and Isaiah the tells us who this "Mystery Babylon Mother of Harlots" is...and it is Jerusalem.
God is Judging Jerusalem/Israel for their total unfaithfulness which culminated in handing our Lord over for crucifixion.
Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem!
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Agreeing to agree, ie, thank you my friend, ie, only missed God's preliminary judgments now at Rev.8:7-9:21.
Tbank you again,
Jack,
btw forget about Israel, ie, however there will be a few Jews that become true believers before Jesus' "1" Coming however.
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Bible2
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The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24) by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b) and the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).
The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That's why the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple, even after Jesus' death and resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).
Dispensationalism is mistaken in that it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).
Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
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To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:17, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).
In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.
In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the armies of the world at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).
Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.
Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).
Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.
In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.
In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.
Note that while the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem (and of other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).
The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.
Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".
Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
Note that Isaiah 1:21 and Jeremiah 3:3 don't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.
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Bible2
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That could be right.
For the last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
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That is utterly wrong Bible2. The Holy of Holies is where God dwelt above the mercy seat...so when the veil is torn in half, that is like tearing the covenant in half. Hebrews makes that pretty clear!
The rest of your "overload response"...we'll see. I don't have time for the way you respond. You try to go from a-z in almost every response.
Just because you have the time don't mean others do. Try not to respond in overwhelming fashion...because many times people are not going to even respond back. They hardly have time to read all that stuff.
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Once again...don't confuse the "Babylon" of Revelation, with the Babylon of Daniel's time. You are told in Revelation 17:5, that this Babylon is a mystery. That should clue you in that this is NOT literal Babylon.
How does that matter? This is the point...God did not say when Babylon would become desolate, He said it would though...and when did that happen. Read Jeremiah 51.
Babylon was destroyed by successive conquest from the Medes to Alexander the Great. So God accomplished what He said.
Once again you have to see what's happening. this is not literal Babylon.
Have you seen Babylon? It is nothing and will be nothing! So what you do is you look at the passages in Rev 17 that quote OT prophecy and you go back there and read what is happening and get the picture. If you can't read that from the beginning and understand it is not literal Babylon...there's just no need to even do this.
Once again...it tells you what is written on the woman's head which is (BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. )...is A MYSTERY...therefore, it is NOT literal.
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Really? How did Israel get completely mowed down and dispersed by the Romans?
None of those passages make your point...and you pull them out of their context. Provide how you think they are relevant.
Have you seen Babylon recently?
That would be totally erroneous too.
*Why is God still speaking to the kings of Judah up until the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar if His name is not on the Temple? I'll provide this passage that shows your statement as error. Read 2 Kings 23 for instance, that should do it. Josiah was King well after Solomon. Pay particular attention to verse 27.
*Why did Jesus call it "My Father's house", when He cleared the money changers out???
How does that make your point? The temple was destroyed! That prophecy is by Jeremiah! Nehemiah is after the 70 years that Jeremiah prophesied.
Really? Ok...if you think so. After that response...I can't do this anymore vinsight4u...carry on.
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