Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2015

I say this because the Canaanite woman was able to relate to Christ's spiritual truth by way of a real world example. Jesus accepted her extension of a real world example or parable (that was upon his own).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2015

ewq1938 said:
Thanks, I try to do just that.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Joh 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
Joh 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
Joh 11:17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Joh 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Joh 11:28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
Joh 11:29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
Joh 11:30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
Joh 11:31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
Joh 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
Joh 11:34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.
Joh 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
Joh 11:37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Joh 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

In this case, Lazarus was literally dead, for 4 days. When Christ said he slept, that is a well known figure of speech that means dead.

So with the maiden, they said she was dead and Christ said no she's sleeping.
With Lazarus, they said he was dead and Christ said he was sleeping but meant he was dead: Howbeit Jesus spake of his death, Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead..

So, same words used but the meaning is different in each example.

But it doesn't sound consistent, though. The way I see it, it seems all too clear that there are two witnesses in Scripture saying the same thing.

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ewq1938 · Nov 1, 2015

Jason0047 said:
But it doesn't sound consistent, though. The way I see it, it seems all too clear that there are two witnesses in Scripture saying the same thing.

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A word like sleep has two meanings. Dead or literal sleep. One example was sleeping, the other was death.
Just read them, it's right there in black and white.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

ewq1938 said:
A word like sleep has two meanings. Dead or literal sleep. One example was sleeping, the other was death.
Just read them, it's right there in black and white.

I am aware Scripture as a whole does so, but this seems like one of the many teachings or truths taught by Jesus which is taught by repeating it. Two times Jesus talks of sleep in relation to death and they each mean something different? I just don't see that as being consistent in the way Jesus taught. But see what you will. Granted, I just re-read the passage and I can see it from your perspective as being true. It is possible. But I think Jesus was trying to make a point spiritually two times concerning death and sleep. For what is the spiritual relationship between the two passages of Lazarus and the young girl in relation to sleep and death?

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DamianWarS · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
But Jesus illustrates spiritual truth by way of real world examples. There used to be a Temple that God had the Israelites build. This is a parallel of the Heavenly Temple. In other words, it would be like traveling to another dimension (where things may appear different) and making an assumption about that dimension based on the limited information that you were given by the short time that you were there. For example: If you seen the skies were green when you arrived, you might assume the skies are always green in that dimension when they could change in color at a later time. The point is that we do not know ALL of what happens in the after-life. For me, I see two places in Scripture where it gives us a clue so as to understand that NOBODY is allowed to tell us about paradise or hades. It's because once you cross over. That's it. Yes, I believe everyone will be conscious in the after-life at some point. But I am just not sure it is immediate, though. I am given bread crumbs from Jesus in two places that "sleep" is a type of physical death where the spirit has not crossed over whereby they would later be conscious about the land of the dead.

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Althought I don't agree with the detail of your theory i agree the bible is ambiguous when talking about what happens when we die. There are the words spoken to the thief on the cross saying "Today you will be with me in paradise" or Paul's words saying that to be absent from the body means to be present with Christ which suggest more of an immediate entrance into heaven. But as I have mentioned before the bible is primarily about instruction for this life and it has only left a foretaste of the next.

Heaven and earth will pass away and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire so these places we commonly think of with the afterlife are only temporary. In Christ's return dead believers resurrect from the ground and meet Christ in the clouds. So if we are in heaven with Christ why do we have to meet him from ground to sky after the resurrection?

after this a great battle occurs and we all live on earth again during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then after that heaven and earth passes away and a new heaven and new earth comes where heaven is the city of Jerusalem on earth.

There are lots of details but in terms of where we go after our last breath it simply is not clear. I believe in Paul's words that we will be present with Christ but certainly modern health seems to give rise to a window of overlap between this life and the next. The bible isn't that focused in teaching us this so I'm not too worried about it.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

DamianWarS said:
Althought I don't agree with the detail of your theory i agree the bible is ambiguous when talking about what happens when we die. There are the words spoken to the thief on the cross saying "Today you will be with me in paradise" or Paul's words saying that to be absent from the body means to be present with Christ which suggest more of an immediate entrance into heaven. But as I have mentioned before the bible is primarily about instruction for this life and it has only left a foretaste of the next.

I believe the thief was in Paradise with Christ that very day in Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the Earth. Oh, and I believe while there are lessons for us to be learned here about the mention of these places in the afterlife, they are also actual realities for where people are going to end up. So they are real places that God wants to tell us about. If he did not want us to know about them, then He would have remained silent.

Heaven and earth will pass away and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire so these places we commonly think of with the afterlife are only temporary. In Christ's return dead believers resurrect from the ground and meet Christ in the clouds. So if we are in heaven with Christ why do we have to meet him from ground to sky after the resurrection? after this a great battle occurs and we all live on earth again during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then after that heaven and earth passes away and a new heaven and new earth comes where heaven is the city of Jerusalem on earth.

Here is the actual timeline of events.

#1. Pre-Trib Rapture takes place
(This involves the saints in Abraham's Bosom and the saints alive on Earth).
(Saints are taken up to be with Christ physically in Heaven).

#2. 7 Year Tribulation.

#3. Near the End of the Tribulation: A second Rapture of the Elect on the Earth takes place so as to return with Christ.

#4. Christ returns to destroy those remaining nations who have refused to repent.

#5. Earth and it's atmosphere will be purified by fire - This is sort of like the global flood but more extreme (For not even the crust will remain the same - For no pepsi cans or glass bottles and other trash will remain in the soil so as to be found in the upcoming Millennium).

#6. A new world is formed out of the ashes (from this Earth) by Jesus. This is the 1,000 year reign of Christ or the Millennium. Here is when Abraham, select patriarchs, and those who were beheaded for Christ will enter the Millennium bodily.

#7. At the end of the 1,000 year reign, satan is loosed so as to tempt the remaining nations.

#8. The Judgment.
(Whereby the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire - where they will immediately or shortly erased from all existence).

#9. A New Earth and Heavens appear.

#10. The city of New Jerusalem come down from out of the Old Heaven and lands on the New Earth.

#11. The old heavens and Earth passes away and is no more.

#12. The remaining saints in Heaven will be resurrected physically or bodily so as to live and reign with Christ on the Eternal New Earth.

Side Note:

When saints die today, they go to be with Christ spiritually in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. But they (the bride) will be married to Him symbolically speaking when the Raptures takes places. This is where many saints will get to meet Christ in his physical body for the first time. For Christ lives forever more.

There are lots of details but in terms of where we go after our last breath it simply is not clear. I believe in Paul's words that we will be present with Christ but certainly modern health seems to give rise to a window of overlap between this life and the next. The bible isn't that focused in teaching us this so I'm not too worried about it.

Well, I am concerned with all aspects of the Truth, especially the Bible so as to glorify Christ with it. But to each their own (in regards to how they seek to worship Him). I want to do all things thru Christ which strengthens me.

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ewq1938 · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I am aware Scripture as a whole does so, but this seems like one of the many teachings or truths taught by Jesus which is taught by repeating it. Two times Jesus talks of sleep in relation to death and they each mean something different? I just don't see that as being consistent in the way Jesus taught. But see what you will. Granted, I just re-read the passage and I can see it from your perspective as being true. It is possible. But I think Jesus was trying to make a point spiritually two times concerning death and sleep. For what is the spiritual relationship between the two passages of Lazarus and the young girl in relation to sleep and death?

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I don't see any spiritual message at all. In one example a girl was thought to be dead but Christ said she wasn't, that she only was asleep literally.
In the other a man was definitely dead, Christ called him sleeping and explained he meant sleep/dead.

Again, sometimes sleep means dead, sometimes it means sleeping.

ewq1938 · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Here is the actual timeline of events.

#1. Pre-Trib Rapture takes place
(This involves the saints in Abraham's Bosom and the saints alive on Earth).
(Saints are taken up to be with Christ physically in Heaven).

The rapture is post trib according to Paul, the only one to use the actual term (harpazo in Greek, rapio in Latin, Rapture in English)

#2. 7 Year Tribulation.

Christ said that had been shortened in the gospels so it is no longer 7 years long.

#3. Near the End of the Tribulation: A second Rapture of the Elect on the Earth takes place so as to return with Christ.

There is only one mass/group rapture mentioned in scripture and it is not near the end but after the trib has ended.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the start of the second coming/Christ leaves heaven. (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)

#4. Christ returns to destroy those remaining nations who have refused to repent.

He only fights against the beast and it's army, Rev 19.

#5. Earth and it's atmosphere will be purified by fire - This is sort of like the global flood but more extreme (For not even the crust will remain the same - For no pepsi cans or glass bottles and other trash will remain in the soil so as to be found in the upcoming Millennium).

None of that happens.

/QUOTE]#6. A new world is formed out of the ashes (from this Earth) by Jesus. This is the 1,000 year reign of Christ or the Millennium. Here is when Abraham, select patriarchs, and those who were beheaded for Christ will enter the Millennium bodily.[/QUOTE]

No, the new earth is written to happen after judgment day, Rev 21. Also, the only beheaded ones mentioned in Rev 20 were killed in the tribulation for refusing the mark of the beast, and to worship the beast or his image. People like Abraham would be brought from heaven with Christ as part of the dead in Christ resurrecting, which is also when the dead trib saints rise.

#7. At the end of the 1,000 year reign, satan is loosed so as to tempt the remaining nations.

#8. The Judgment.
(Whereby the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire - where they will immediately or shortly erased from all existence).

#9. A New Earth and Heavens appear.

#10. The city of New Jerusalem come down from out of the Old Heaven and lands on the New Earth.

#11. The old heavens and Earth passes away and is no more.

#12. The remaining saints in Heaven will be resurrected physically or bodily so as to live and reign with Christ on the Eternal New Earth.

12 is out of order. The resurrection happens at the same general time of the second coming and rapture. I posted the verses up above.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

The Rapture.

There is going to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Bible is very clear on this.

Pre-Trib Rapture.

versus the...

Gathering of Elect Before Christ's Second Coming.

Then there are the clues or breadcrumbs of the Pre-Trib Rapture, too.

Pre-Trib Rapture is paralleled in Genesis and Revelation.

Those who say the Lord is delaying His Coming.

Comparing the Trumpet of Blessing vs. the Trumpet of Judgment.

Knowing the Timing of Period Called "Wrath" and Realizing We are not Appointed Unto "Wrath."

However, you have to realize that the Pre-Trib is the only position where a person has the most to lose.

Those who say everything has been fulfilled already have not truly believed Revelation at face value. For anyone who is honest with themselves in reading it will see that none of the major things in Revelation have happened yet.

Mid Trib view is false because you have a population problem with the Anti-Christ killing the saints during this time.

Post Trib view is false because we are not appointed unto Wrath.

Those who say there is no Rapture means they have not read the Rapture verses with an open mind.

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ewq1938 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
There is going to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Bible is very clear on this.

Sorry but my last post already debunked that theory.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

ewq1938 said:
Sorry but my last post already debunked that theory.

The Pre-Trib Rapture is the only view where you have the most to lose by not believing in it. It is also the view that is backed up by Scripture in many places. I originally was Pre-Trib, then went to being Pre-Wrath for a short time, and then I was convinced by the weight of the Scriptural evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture. So I have come full circle. The Post Trib view is easily refuted by the fact that the Scriptures say we are not appointed unto Wrath.

Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

Short Version:

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

• John 14:3 -

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

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ewq1938 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
The Pre-Trib Rapture is the only view where you have the most to lose by not believing in it.

No, believing in it might cause one to worship the Antichrist. If he comes and claims to be Jesus and does a miracle to make people think they have been raptured then causing the Apostasy is quite easy.

It is also the view that is backed up by Scripture in many places.

No, there is no scriptural support for it and it contradicts Paul when he said the rapture happens after both the second coming (which is after the trib) and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The Post Trib view is easily refuted by the fact that the Scriptures say we are not appointed unto Wrath.

Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.

We aren't appointed for God's wrath but we are appointed for the wrath of Satan, Rev 12.

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ewq1938 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Short Version:

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

The verse says no such thing. It only says they are eagerly waiting for him to return.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

No difference at all.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

You are ignoring context that says this happens after the second coming:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the start of the second coming/Christ leaves heaven. (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)

This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

He comes with his saints at the rapture...same timeframe.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Just put two and two together. You know the second coming is after the trib, and you know he brings his saints with him and here is a verse saying the same thing and it's directly tied to the timing of the rapture in verse 17:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul teaches the rapture happens after the second coming and resurrection, placing it just after the end of the trib.

The only pretrib "rapture" is the one Satan will provide to cause the Apostasy. And many pretribs are so confused they will even say the Apostasy is the rapture! How right they are except it's a false rapture right into the hands of the Antichrist.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, believing in it might cause one to worship the Antichrist. If he comes and claims to be Jesus and does a miracle to make people think they have been raptured then causing the Apostasy is quite easy.

While that is an intriguing theory, true believers will know that Jesus will return in the clouds where every eye will see Him. For the same way He left, is the same way in which He will return.

But the problem with yoru view is that you are not watching and looking for Jesus, though. This is dangerous because Jesus told us to watch and be ready for we know not what hour he comes. But in your view, you are not watching and looking for his return because you have to wait to see the Judgment seals pass first. So when the seals are broken (and if you survive), then you can watch and be ready. But now? That is not likely. You really can't do that.

ewq1938 said:
We aren't appointed for God's wrath but we are appointed for the wrath of Satan, Rev 12.

It sounds like you believe in a Post Trib Rapture, is that correct?
I always like to re-clarify someone's beliefs just to make sure we are on the same page.

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Bible Highlighter · Mar 4, 2016

ewq1938 said:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here is the rub, though. If we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the clouds and forever be with Him, it paints a picture of being in His Kingdom forever with Him (i.e. first heaven, and then the Eternal New Earth for all eternity); And it does not paint a picture of us returning back to this sinful world here. For 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Also, here are some other Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT
Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

And yet, Luke 17:37 says,

"And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, "Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.""

In other words, there are two "Catching ups" or two "Raptures."

The first one is saying the saint will be with Him where He is (i.e. to join the Lord in Heaven). The second one says the saints remaining alive during that time will be taken up so as to join the Lord in battle to fight at Armageddon.

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ewq1938 · Mar 4, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Here is the rub, though. If we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the clouds and forever be with Him, it paints a picture of being in His Kingdom forever with Him (i.e. first heaven, and then the Eternal New Earth for all eternity); And it does not paint a picture of us returning back to this sinful world here.

Key part is being forever with him and Jesus does not spend eternity in the clouds. He returns to the Earth and so all the raptured ones return with Christ and stay with him where he ends up. Remember the rapture gathers together the saints who are scattered all over the world so they can all be gathered together with Christ.

Also, here are some other Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT
Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

Neither are related to the rapture.

"And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, "Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.""

The bodies are dead because Christ went there and killed these enemies, Rev 19, and the raptured ones are there with him.

In other words, there are two "Catching ups" or two "Raptures."

No, there is only one mass bodily rapture of the living saints at the second coming.

The first one is saying the saint will be with Him where He is (i.e. to join the Lord in Heaven).

That is not a bodily rapture. That's merely the spirit returning to God as is written in the OT.

The second one says the saints remaining alive during that time will be taken up so as to join the Lord in battle to fight at Armageddon.

This is correct although I don't know if they do any fighting but perhaps they do.

ewq1938 · Mar 4, 2016

Jason0047 said:
While that is an intriguing theory, true believers will know that Jesus will return in the clouds where every eye will see Him. For the same way He left, is the same way in which He will return.

Sure "true believers" but don't forget the Apostasy will happen and that is committed by Christians who believe in false doctrines like pre-trib rapture and Amil both teaching that Jesus can come at any moment which is perfect for the Antichrist to the advantage of.

But the problem with yoru view is that you are not watching and looking for Jesus, though.

You are incorrect and really have nothing to even base that conclusion on.

This is dangerous because Jesus told us to watch and be ready for we know not what hour he comes. But in your view, you are not watching and looking for his return because you have to wait to see the Judgment seals pass first.

lol, you must have wrongly addressed this to me because I said nothing about the seals let alone them being judgments, which they aren't.

So when the seals are broken (and if you survive), then you can watch and be ready. But now? That is not likely. You really can't do that.

I can tell from this that you have no idea what the seals actually are...but this isn't about the seals so I won't bother getting into all of that.

It sounds like you believe in a Post Trib Rapture, is that correct?

Of course. That is when the rapture occurs.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 5, 2016

I am going to simplify this for you. Jesus commands us to,
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Jesus also commands us to be ready when He said,
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"

Okay, so we do not know the hour He will come. In fact, Jesus says He will come in an hour that we that we think not (or in an hour that we are unaware of). See, that is the whole purpose of watching and being ready all the time. It is not a future reality we should be aware of but a present day reality for us right now. "Watch." "Be... ready." Are you watching and being ready at any moment right now expecting He will be coming at an hour you think not?

Well, this cannot be true for you if you are expecting the Lord to come in an hour you are expecting - which is after the Judgment seals have passed (Which should be easy for anyone to spot). So again, I ask you, how can you "Watch" and "Be...ready" with the expectation that you are not aware of the hour in which your Lord does come if .... YOU KNOW the hour He comes? See, that is one of the MANY problems with the other Rapture views that are not Pre-Tribulation, my friend.

....

ewq1938 · Mar 5, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I am going to simplify this for you. Jesus commands us to,
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Jesus also commands us to be ready when He said,
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"

Well, this cannot be true for you if you are expecting the Lord to come in an hour you are expecting - which is after the Judgment seals have passed (Which should be easy for anyone to spot).

Paul outright states the rapture happens after the second coming and after the resurrection and we know both of those happen after the tribulation so a pre-trib rapture is scripturally impossible else Paul is a false prophet.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

Your point about us not knowing the hour is meaningless because we know the season, even the day of his return when certain events take place.

Paul even wrote that the second coming will not happen until certain things happen:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That's the Antichrist and he does in the tribulation and how the second coming destroys him. This is Paul's anti pretrib teaching. The pre-trib doctrine came about from misunderstanding Paul's first letter so he wrote this second letter to admonish them.

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