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I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.
I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).
However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.
Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.
So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?
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"Hell" is not the best word to use as it conjures up a very narrow view of what this place actually is.
The OT also is not the best place to look for revelation on this subject as it only had one place for the good and the bad called Sheol; an indiscriminate place of the dead where all passed through.
The NT uses two main words translated as hell. Hades and Gehenna. In greek mythology Hades is very much like Sheol but in biblical use it is described as an undesired place of the dead that can be avoided. Typically Gehenna is shown as a more severe of the two with greater images of fire but hades also is shown with images of fire like in the case of the parable of the rich man. The two may be describing the same place as they appear to be somewhat interchangeable.
The fine points of the afterlife however are largely metaphorical and it doesn't give us a lot of detail.
Even the parable of the rich man uses very concrete images yet there are problems with these images because we know "things" in fire will eventually burn up. At the very least there is something different with these flames then what we know a flame to be and we cannot with certainty know "hades" is a place of concrete suffering yet these are the images Jesus uses.
When it comes down to it the bible is a book written for the living by the living. It is not written for the dead or those in the afterlife. It has very practical guidance for the living but if we look to it as a source of guidance for the afterlife it is in many ways beyond the scope of the book even if it gives glimpses and a hope of things to come.
Well, I was just quoting what Acts 2:27 said and I was not offering a complete commentary on it. I am aware that the word "hell" can refer to either Sheol (the realm of the dead), Torments (i.e. the firely place known as hell), and or Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire - where the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence).
I disagree. There is a saying:
"The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; And the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed."
For there are many amazing insights and details in the OT which amplify the New Testament.
Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is also called "hell" because I believe it is the lowest hell described in the Scriptures. The Bible implies that hell (Torments) is an island. I believe the water of this island is the Lake of Fire.
We know in part and we prophecy in part.
I don't think the images are confusing. It is the reader who is confused by the type of language that was used. The story of Lazarus and the Rich-man makes perfect sense in a literal sense. When the Rich-man said, "I am tormented in this flame" I believe he was referring to the flame in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham (i.e. the flames from the Lake of Fire). For example: I can say, "I am tormented in this tornado" and yet the twister would be in front of my view coming towards me.
What is the importance behind the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man? What is the importance of knowing if there is a real hell? What is the importance of knowing there is a Paradise or Abraham's Bosom? What is the importance in knowing that we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth? These are good questions to ponder for us as believers with the help of our Lord and Savior (of course).
Most modern translations no longer use "hell". It is important to understand the biblical context of the word before we get into the finer details of what the place really means.
Sheol is the realm of the dead in OT context
Ever read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man (Jesus) sees the Ancient of Days (God the Father) in Heaven? What about when Isaiah had seen the LORD in a vision sitting on a throne and an angel put a piece of coal over his mouth? Was that not in the Heavenly Temple? Isaiah 14:9 says hell is moved beneath to meet the King of Babylon.however what you will find is there is a very poor understanding of what happened to you when you die in the OT. And traditional heaven and hell places are absent. Sheol is more of a concept to represent death rather than a literal physical place.
You are right. It is a bit of a nickname I have given it (Which I suppose I should drop). But the Rich-man does call this hell, "this place of torment" (Luke 16:28). As for Tartarus: This is a deep area of hell where certain fallen angels are held in chains. It is possible that this deep abyss is probably accessed by something like a worm hole or portal.There is no biblical place of the afterlife called "torments" so I'm not sure what you are getting at there, perhaps you mean "Tartarus" (2 Peter 2:4).
No, Peter was referring to actual fallen angels deep beneath the Earth. Such a truth did not originate in mythology.Tartarus in greek mythology is the lowest place of Hades where the Titans are chained up. Peter uses the reference to suggest fallen Angels are locked up there. It's a very limited reference and there is little we get from it. Peter May have been contextualizing greek beliefs and it is unclear how this place affects the afterlife of those who perish.
Matthew 10:28 BLB (Berean Literal Bible) says, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."Gehenna is a reference of a place for burning garbage outside the city limits, Jesus seems to be using it a common accepted expression for a place of judgement but there is little teaching of what this place actually is. Gehenna is most commonly associated with fire and torment in the NT and if Hades and Gehenna were compared Gehenna comes across as a greater place of torment. The bible does not tell us however that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same places but that is a theory. The Lake of Fire is only mentioned in Rev. And rev. doesn't ever mention the word Gehenna. Hades is mentioned but it is directly contrasted with the Lake of Fire, ie. Rev. 20:14 we see Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, this is called the second death where there is a final judgment of unbelievers.
Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. The Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).Scripture does not reveal to us that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Your going to have to expand on this whole idea of an island too because I not aware of such implications. In terms of levels of Hades, as earlier mentioned, Tartarus is the lowest place of hades.
So we do not know in part? Believers can have all knowledge in this life?Has the perfect come yet? This scripture verse has debatable meaning. I believe the perfect is Jesus and when he comes again we will no longer need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to to fill in our cracks. But that discussion is for another thread.
No. Parables are real world examples that show us a spiritual truth or point. For example: The Canaanite woman was able to use a real world example in reply to Jesus and he accepted it. If she just made up some silly fantasy, Jesus would reject what she was saying. Her parable only had validity because it was a truth based in the real world.Parables give the audience very concrete concepts but used metaphorically and many times without the audience being aware of this. If we take the parables literally then our mission is about spreading seed and feeding sheep. Certainly parables can give us extra insight and may be using literal concepts but we need to use wisdom with the values and teaching within the parables over the concrete images.
I believe I already addressed the matter of sleep vs death in these posts here:We first need to have strong foundation to these concepts before we freely ponder their limits. And we must reconcile why the bible offers us very limited insight into these areas. A statement like "we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth" is taking a lot of liberties and demands clear biblical rational for each thought.
Yes, you are right. The Biblical context determines the meaning of a word. Regardless if one uses a Modern Version or the KJV, one still needs to read the surrounding context to determine what a word is talking about. For the Bible has homonyms in it. For example: The bark from Jack's dog could be heard from down the street as he scratched his paws against the bark in desire to capture a squirrel that just climbed up the tree.-
Ever read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man (Jesus) sees the Ancient of Days (God the Father) in Heaven? What about when Isaiah had seen the LORD in a vision sitting on a throne and an angel put a piece of coal over his mouth? Was that not in the Heavenly Temple? Isaiah 14:9 says hell is moved beneath to meet the King of Babylon.-
You are right. It is a bit of a nickname I have given it (Which I suppose I should drop). But the Rich-man does call this hell, "this place of torment" (Luke 16:28). As for Tartarus: This is a deep area of hell where certain fallen angels are held in chains. It is possible that this deep abyss is probably accessed by something like a worm hole or portal.
No, Peter was referring to actual fallen angels deep beneath the Earth. Such a truth did not originate in mythology.
Matthew 10:28 BLB (Berean Literal Bible) says, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
This is obviously speaking about the Lake of Fire because the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" (Which is based on the "First Death").
Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. The Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).
Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. It says there is a type of "burning" happening there.
Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."
The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.
So we do not know in part? Believers can have all knowledge in this life?
No. Parables are real world examples that show us a spiritual truth or point. For example: The Canaanite woman was able to use a real world example in reply to Jesus and he accepted it. If she just made up some silly fantasy, Jesus would reject what she was saying. Her parable only had validity because it was a truth based in the real world.
I believe I already addressed the matter of sleep vs death in these posts here.
For me the metaphorical interpretation of Jesus saying that the little girl sleepeth as equalling death does not make sense. Because Jesus makes a distinction between death and sleep. He says she is not dead but she sleepeth.
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Then why did they do this?In that case she was sleeping literally. In other cases, th6e term "sleep" does in fact mean dead.
Then why did they do this?
"And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead." (Luke 8:53).
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Interesting. I like the way you think. Outside the box. But then there is the other similar passage to contend with involving Lazarus, though.There are only two possibilities. Either she had died and Christ resurrected her back to life, and she was then sleeping. Or, they thought she had died but was in a deep coma/sleep and Christ healed her. Either way, when Christ said she was sleeping she was not dead but sleeping.
Interesting. I like the way you think. Outside the box. But then there is the other similar passage to contend with involving Lazarus, though.
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Check out what I said on Lazarus here:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/#post-68737000
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I had read it but I don't believe in soul sleep. The dead in literal graves are dead and know nothing, but the former souls which were in those dead bodies are fully awake and alive whether in Hades or in heaven. I have never found anything which suggests ones soul or spirit is asleep and unaware of things after physical death.
I am not proposing an extended soul sleep or anything in the traditional sense. It is merely a temporary form of unconsciousness before they cross over. Today, people die and come back to life and do not remember anything about the afterlife. I believe one possibility is that they had not crossed over yet. In other words, think of it as a brief moment of unawareness before one goes to paradise or hades.
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Hard to trust those accounts because they revived. Perhaps they weren't allowed to remember and then there are accounts where they are fully awake and see stuff they remember. I prefer to use biblical evidence and I see nothing for souls being asleep. There are plenty of verses that show souls awake and alert which contradicts any form of soul sleep.
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