Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

Tone · Jan 20, 2021

Is this where the new song comes in?

Revelation 14
"2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."

Tone · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Or, perhaps they would eventually lose track of the apostolic tradition?

Well, again, referring to Eliezer as a type, could Rebecca have become Isaac's bride if he (Eliezer) didn't carry out his commission from Abraham?

*Would there be some other...magical way...?

**And if she was unwilling to follow him?

2PhiloVoid · Jan 20, 2021

Tone said:
Do you think that if this should ever come to pass, the Called Out Ones won't die with them (Scripture)?

It's hard to say. I suppose we could look at the history of the last 100 years among various Communist countries to see how some of this plays out on a larger scale. (?) To tell you the truth, it's not something I really like to contemplate for very long.

Tone · Jan 20, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
It's hard to say. I suppose we could look at the history of the last 100 years among various Communist countries to see how some of this plays out on a larger scale. (?) To tell you the truth, it's not something I really like to contemplate for very long.

Well, I'm sure that there were pockets of instances where the Bible was denied to people. But, I believe that there was always contraband, leaks, and memory (as discussed) at play.

I mean, I can think of times when I was denied access to Scripture in the less pleasant places of public "corrections", but it was only temporary and I had been faithful to dig my roots in deep in preparation for such storms.

All we have to do is look at what happens in prisons where no alcohol or drugs are permitted. Those places are flooded with the stuff. Money talks.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 20, 2021

Tone said:
Well, I'm sure that there were pockets of instances where the Bible was denied to people. But, I believe that there was always contraband, leaks, and memory (as discussed) at play.

I mean, I can think of times when I was denied access to Scripture in the less pleasant places of public "corrections", but it was only temporary and I had been faithful to dig my roots in deep in preparation for such storms.

All we have to do is look at what happens in prisons where no alcohol or drugs are permitted. Those places are flooded with the stuff. Money talks.

Yeah, I can imagine that in those scenarios there'd still be pieces of Scripture here and there, even if reproduced by some of those Christians who had committed it could to memory.

Taodeching · Jan 20, 2021

Tone said:
Oh nice, "liturgical" gets the big "C" Church and the Evangelical gets the small "c" churches...with the plural...ha ha.

So, is the Church divided?

Yes, very much so. There are 40,000 protestant denominations alone

Halbhh · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

The Word is available to us because God chose that it should be. He can make happen what He chooses, no matter the situation. Therefore it would not be possible for the Word to be blocked.

As the living eye witness passed on, the Gospel of Mark was written down. If the church withheld scripture, then bibles would be printed. Christ even went to proclaim to the dead (1rst Peter chapters 3 & 4).

public hermit · Jan 20, 2021

Halbhh said:
The Word is available to us because God chose that it should be. He can make happen what He chooses, no matter the situation. Therefore it would not be possible for the Word to be blocked.

As the living eye witness passed on, the Gospel of Mark was written down. If the church withheld scripture, then bibles would be printed. Christ even went to proclaim to the dead (1rst Peter chapters 3 & 4).

So, when we're told God's Word will not return empty, that does not mean the scriptures. It means that which is contained within the scriptures?

Halbhh · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
So, when we're told God's Word will not return empty, that does not mean the scriptures. It means that which is contained within the scriptures?

The Word with a capital W....

d taylor · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

The church was always based on The Word of God, the early church, one seen in the Bible was based on The Tanakh.

But the current church is using the Bible but many are not basing many teaching on/from the Bible. Which is being seen the weakening of the church.

public hermit · Jan 20, 2021

d taylor said:
The church was always based on The Word of God, the early church, one seen in the Bible was based on The Tanakh.

But the current church is using the Bible but many are not basing many teaching on/from the Bible. Which is being seen the weakening of the church.

That might all be true. But could the Church persist if, through an unlikely event, it did not have access to the scriptures tomorrow? If it could, why? If not, why not?

d taylor · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
That might all be true. But could the Church persist if, through an unlikely event, it did not have access to the scriptures tomorrow? If it could, why? If not, why not?

It would exist for a time from memory, but as i believe. How does that game go, when people say something to the next person and by the time it goes through several people the message gets changed.

In this day and age, it is essential to have the written word.

public hermit · Jan 20, 2021

d taylor said:
It would exist for a time from memory, but as i believe. How does that game go, when people say something to the next person and by the time it goes through several people the message gets changed.

In this day and age, it is essential to have the written word.

Right, it's the game where the secret gets distorted by the time it gets back to the source.

I have some sympathy with the idea that the written word is practically necessary, simply to ensure the integrity of the proclamation.

d taylor · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Right, it's the game where the secret gets distorted by the time it gets back to the source.

I have some sympathy with the idea that the written word is practically necessary, simply to ensure the integrity of the proclamation.

Even Jesus actually read from the written word.

public hermit · Jan 20, 2021

d taylor said:
Even Jesus actually read from the written word.

Yeah, but it was the Septuagint, so....

d taylor · Jan 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Yeah, but it was the Septuagint, so....

I though he read from scrolls. ?

public hermit · Jan 20, 2021

d taylor said:
I though he read from scrolls. ?

Yes, the question is whether the gospel writers recorded what he actually said (what he was reading, if it was Hebrew), or the Septuagint they used for the same passage. Since they quote heavily (exclusively?) from the later, the evidence leans that way. But, it's not definitive. I was trying to be funny, I really don't know.

d taylor · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Yes, the question is whether the gospel writers recorded what he actually said (what he was reading, if it was Hebrew), or the Septuagint they used for the same passage. Since they quote heavily (exclusively?) from the later, the evidence leans that way. But, it's not definitive. I was trying to be funny, I really don't know.

Sorry i missed it, not using a computer much i miss out on the little smiles (i many times never pay attention to them)

2PhiloVoid · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

Now that a number of others have had the chance to weigh in, I'm going to tease a possible answer to your questions and simply say "yes, the Church could survive without the Scriptures...(i.e. any of the Scriptures)."

public hermit · Jan 21, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Now that a number of others have had the chance to weigh in, I'm going to tease a possible answer to your questions and simply say "yes, the Church could survive without the Scriptures...(i.e. any of the Scriptures)."

I'm leaning that way, too (well, I changed my vote to Yes after a few responded as well). Why do you think it could?

Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

Could the Christian Faith persist without the scriptures?

Yes

No

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