Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

[Tone]

I guess we should ask whether or not people can know the Creator as Savior apart from the Written Word...?

He is the God of history and, as I believe @Sabertooth was getting at, what do we see?

We see The Bible being there right along side His People...as a reflection.

So, what about this verse:

1 Corinthians 13:12
"12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

This brings up the interesting question as to the New Heavens and the New Earth.


Will the Bible be there when we have the reality?

 

[Albion]

We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

You do ask intriguing questions!

The early church survived without the New Testament, but it did have the Apostles who were recognized as having gotten their instructions from Christ personally. Also, the church of that era did not have much of anything in the way of dogmas. Just the bare basics, such as Christ is Messiah, followers to believe in him and his expected return, to be baptized and observe the holy meal, plus the need to spread the faith, etc.

So could the churches as we know any of them today survive without the Bible? Hard to say, but the disciples would probably break down into two basic groups: those committed to doing whatever the church of history was thought to have done OR ELSE a very loose kind of Christianity based on nothing more than a religious kind of "hero worship," in which Jesus would be known through innumerable legends telling and retelling his supposed exploits.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

These are important points. It's easy to assume every church early on had a bible. But, of course, they didn't. As you say, the transmission (evangelization) often by far exceeded the translation of the scriptures.

It's not just the translation but the copying of them before the days of printing presses where everything had to be done by hand, and the materials were extremely expensive.

And on top of that you got other problems like canonization if you want a Bible (What should go into it?), if you want a codex rather than scroll collection then you need to pay extra for the vellum.


But this sort of thing reflects the nature of the Early Church itself. From what we know from the Book of Acts and Early Church historians like Papias the Early Church did not set out writing the Gospels right away. According to Papias, Peter and other preached in Jerusalem a number of years before they got around recording on paper the Logia saying of Jesus in Aramaic, and did not get around to writing the Gospel of Matthew until they realized they needed to flee Jerusalem because of the ever increasing persecution.

 

[public hermit]

Could the United States survive without the U.S. Constitution?

That's an interesting analogy. The Constitution does capture the relevant ideas all in one place.

I guess we should ask whether or not people can know the Creator as Savior apart from the Written Word...?

I think you're right. That really is the question.

 

[public hermit]

So could the churches as we know any of them today survive without the Bible? Hard to say, but the disciples would probably break down into two basic groups: those committed to doing whatever the church of history was thought to have done OR ELSE a very loose kind of Christianity based on nothing more than a religious kind of "hero worship," in which Jesus would be known through innumerable legends telling and retelling his supposed exploits

This makes sense. I'm actually feeling a bit more confident that the apostolic tradition could be maintained than I did when I started this thread. Surely that would become the priority for a good many Christians if such a situation were to occur.

 

[Tone]

I think you're right. That really is the question.

I lean towards, "NO."

Reason being is that the Bible is the direct result of the Comforter's work:

John 14
"25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

While Messiah was on earth, He revealed the Father, then He said that He will send the Comforter to reveal what He said.

So then, the Bible, in a sense, is the Helper.

I recently shared the idea that Eve, as Adam's rib, may be analogous to the Written Word being the Living Word's Rib.


Just some recent musings...

It seems the theme of Masculine/Feminine is really being played out right now in my studies...which is cool!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You mean the Holy Spirit (w/the OT)? Yes, I agree, it's more than mere oral transmission.

I was reading Barth's three uses of "Word of God" which prompted my question. Barth says the phrase legitimately refers to:

1. Christ
2. Scripture
3. Proclamation

It's a usual Reformed position, which makes sense. But, Barth argues the scriptures are necessary because they are independent of the community, i.e. rule of faith. That use of "necessary" is pretty loose. But the Church has never been, as a body, without some kind of scriptural grounding, i.e. OT.

Overall, I think the OP is a useful question in helping clarify (or explore) the function of the scriptures.

Y'know, that's informative, PH! I've only read a few small snippets of Barth along with a few short synopses of his Neo-Orthodox position on the Bible, but I don't remember coming across anything discussing his three uses of "Word of God." Thanks for sharing that background info on his thinking.

And I'm not knocking your OP. I think it's great, and I agree that it helps us think further about the function of the Scriptures (especially in a hypothetical case where they could be utterly removed from our everyday access).

 

[public hermit]

(especially in a hypothetical case where they could be utterly removed from our everyday access).

Lol! Well, there is that.

 

[Taodeching]

We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

I think the Liturgical Church definitely would but the I think the Evangelical churches could not survive because their identity is so tied to it.

 

[Tone]

(especially in a hypothetical case where they could be utterly removed from our everyday access).

Do you think that if this should ever come to pass, the Called Out Ones won't die with them (Scripture)?

I think the Liturgical Church definitely would but the I think the Evangelical churches could not survive because their identity is so tied to it.

Oh nice, "liturgical" gets the big "C" Church and the Evangelical gets the small "c" churches...with the plural...ha ha.

So, is the Church divided?

 

[Tone]

There is a teaching that Abraham's servant Eliezer is a picture of the Helper.

"From Hebrew אֱלִיעֶזֶר ('Eli'ezer) meaning "my God is help..."
Meaning, origin and history of the name Eliezer - Behind the Name

And here is another word:

"3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court."


And what was Eliezer's mission?

Genesis 24
"…2So Abraham instructed the chief servant of his household, who managed all he owned, “Place your hand under my thigh, 3and I will have you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites among whom I am dwelling, 4but will go to my country and my kindred to take a wife for my son Isaac."


And if she was unwilling to follow him to her Husband, he was released from that oath.


So, who esteems the Servant of the Master, and who will hear His Words, that the Bride be made ready?

 

[Tone]

I mean Who Calls the Called Out Ones...out?

And aren't they called out to become One with their Husbandman?

 

[public hermit]

I mean Who Calls the Called Out Ones...out?

Couldn't the proclamation serve that function, so long as it carried on the apostolic faith (even without the scriptures)?

 

[Tone]

Couldn't the proclamation serve that function, so long as it carried on the apostolic faith (even without the scriptures)?

Are you speaking about new Revelation?

 

[public hermit]

Are you speaking about new Revelation?

No, I just mean if a scenario occurred in which we had no access to scripture, couldn't the proclamation of Jesus Christ by the remaining faithful fulfill the function of calling the called out ones, as you put it? Or, perhaps they would eventually lose track of the apostolic tradition?

 

[Tone]

Revelation 19
"5Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you who serve Him, and those who fear Him, small and great alike!” 6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out: “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. 7Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. …8She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints. 9Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the TRUE words of God.” 10So I fell at his feet to worship him. But he told me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

 

[Tone]

the proclamation of Jesus Christ by the remaining faithful

What would they be proclaiming apart from Scripture?

 

[public hermit]

What would they be proclaiming apart from Scripture?

Well, the unlikely scenario I tried to present in the OP is just that. Could the Church persist if it found itself without the scriptures?

I guess I mean "Could the Church carry on."

 

[Tone]

What Does the Bible Say About Spirit Of Prophecy? (openbible.info)

 

[Tone]

Well, the unlikely scenario I tried to present in the OP is just that. Could the Church persist if it found itself without the scriptures?

I guess I mean "Could the Church carry on."

Perhaps, when She is made One with the Groom.

Remember, Abraham's servant acted as the matchmaker, if you will.

Once the match is consumed...


But, then she is no longer just a woman...but the Bride.