Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

[public hermit]

We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

 

[DaveM]

happens every day all around the world, plenty of closed countries have believers in them.

 

[public hermit]

happens every day all around the world, plenty of closed countries have believers in them.

Good point!

(This might be a short thread, lol)

 

[Junia]

We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

Not in this day and age

Due to technology and social media there is a lot of false counterfeit Christianity out there

Th bible Labour yardstick

 

[Junia]

Sorry that was supposed to say the Bible is our yardstick

 

[public hermit]

Sorry that was supposed to say the Bible is our yardstick

This is also a good point. There seems to have always been some "rule of faith" even before the settling of the canon. The scriptures serve that function in a preeminent way, at this point. It's hard to imagine what else could serve that function now.

 

[Sabertooth]

1. If God allowed Scripture to disappear, He would sustain us another way.
2. If Scripture is necessary for the Church's well-being, He would safeguard their availability.

My reading of the New Testament suggests that #2 is the most likely scenario.

Jesus said of the Holy Spirit,
"He will

teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26​

 

[public hermit]

1. If God allowed Scripture to disappear, He would sustain us another way.
2. If Scripture is necessary for the Church's well-being, He would safeguard their availability.

My reading of the New Testament suggests that #2 is the most likely scenario.

Jesus said of the Holy Spirit,
"He will

teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26​

Assuming #1 obtained instead, your position would be that God would preserve the integrity of the proclamation?

 

[Sabertooth]

Assuming #1 obtained instead, your position would be that God would preserve the integrity of the proclamation?

Yes, but it is hard to imagine how that would play out.

"So then faith comes by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17 NKJV

 

[public hermit]

, but it is hard to imagine how that would play out

I agree. I think of that game we played as children where one person whispers a secret in their neighbor's ear, then it's passed around the room that way. By the time it gets back to the source it has invariably changed. I certainly don't believe God could not preserve the proclamation. But it would be a veritable miracle if it were preserved orally, I think.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What do you think?

Yes. Even though the Scriptures are very important to the Church is able to get by without them for a time, due to much of their message being memorized and preached. This is not just a case, as some alluded to in the modern persecuted Church in places like Islamic and Communist countries etc. But this has also been the case in ancient times as well. The Evangelization of the Church far exceeded the translation of the New Testament Scriptures in places like ancient Armenia, Syria, Iraq, Iran and India.

Not only is this true, but this has been largely the case in even Western Christianity in the Early years of the Faith, when many Christian were persecuted and had trouble getting their hand on some of the scrolls of scripture etc. Writings like the Didache exist because they gave Christians the minimum amount of stuff they needed to carry on as far as church services, doctrines and basic advice and information go.

https://onlinechristianlibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/didache.pdf

 

[Heavenhome]

I don't think it would, because if we didn't need the Bible to keep us on the narrow path, why would God have written it in the first place for us?
As someone else has said there is so many false religions and counterfeit Christianity around, if we didn't have the Bible, how would we measure the truth?

 

[public hermit]

Yes. Even though the Scriptures are very important to the Church is able to get by without them for a time, due to much of their message being memorized and preached. This is not just a case, as some alluded to in the modern persecuted Church in places like Islamic and Communist countries etc. But this has also been the case in ancient times as well. The Evangelization of the Church far exceeded the translation of the Scriptures in places like ancient Armenia, Syria, Iraq, Iran and India.

Not only is this true, but this has been largely the case in even Western Christianity in the Early years of the Faith, when many Christian were persecuted and had trouble getting their hand on some of the scrolls of scripture etc. Writings like the Didache exist because they gave Christians the minimum amount of stuff they needed to carry on as far as church services, doctrines and basic advice and information go.

https://onlinechristianlibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/didache.pdf

These are important points. It's easy to assume every church early on had a bible. But, of course, they didn't. As you say, the transmission (evangelization) often by far exceeded the translation of the scriptures.

Plus, the collective memory of passages could probably, and fairly quickly, reproduce significant portions of scripture in any given historically situated community, if that were needed. If the scriptures disappeared today, we could reproduce much of it from collective memory, and probably with consensus.

 

[public hermit]

if we didn't have the Bible, how would we measure the truth?

I feel the weight of this argument. But the early church primarily relied on a rule of faith, prior to having an established canon. Would something like the Apostles Creed suffice, you think?

 

[bekkilyn]

The church as it is exists due to the grace and will of God and for no other reason, including scripture. Scripture is a gift and a tool God has provided to help us, but it isn't God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We know the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament. Assuming some series of unforeseen events took place in which the scriptures became virtually inaccessible, or at least very difficult to acquire, could the Church persist without the scriptures? Or, without the New Testament?

I have my doubts it could. I don't think it impossible, but wonder about the integrity and consistency of the proclamation. Then again, it started out as an oral transmission (but still heavily dependent on the Hebrew scriptures). I'm curious what people think.

What do you think?

I'm not going to answer this, PH. But, I will offer the following question as an additional speculative spark for everyone to think about:

As Christians, wouldn't it be an understatement for us to say that the Church Jesus planted, and which persisted during the 1st century before the New Testament writings were articulated, began only as a social dynamic involving "oral transmission"?​

I leave it to other folks here to express larger, fuller answers to your several questions, PH.

Have a blessed evening!

 

[public hermit]

The church as it is exists due to the grace and will of God and for no other reason, including scripture. Scripture is a gift and a tool God has provided to help us, but it isn't God.

Amen. I could not agree more.

*goes and changes his vote from Other to Yes*

 

[Heavenhome]

The Apostle's Creed is good as to a statement of what a person believes but as far as growing as a Christian, staying on track, well I just think that God knows best and He knew that we needed Scripture, hence we have the Bible.
Even the creed is dependant on what someone has read in the Bible.
God in His wisdom knows that it is easy for error to creep in very easily when we are left to our own devices.
It didn't take Eve long to make a muck up of what God commanded.
What about the ten commandments God Himself wrote on the tablets?
We are deluding ourselves if we think that living with a sin nature as we still do, that we could pass on only verbally what God has written down.

 

[Tone]

Could the United States survive without the U.S. Constitution?


If it remained in the memory of a small remnant as a residue.

But, wouldn't these memories technically be the Constitution...just in electrochemical form (for those who believe it is merely a function of the brain)?

Of course, concerning the Scriptures, as someone pointed out--they are Spiritual manifestations (Inspired), so...

I guess we should ask whether or not people can know the Creator as Savior apart from the Written Word...?



Something good to chew on...

 

[public hermit]

As Christians, wouldn't it be an understatement for us to say that the Church Jesus planted, and which persisted during the 1st century before the New Testament writings were articulated, began only as a social dynamic involving "oral transmission"?

You mean the Holy Spirit (w/the OT)? Yes, I agree, it's more than mere oral transmission.

I was reading Barth's three uses of "Word of God" which prompted my question. Barth says the phrase legitimately refers to:

1. Christ
2. Scripture
3. Proclamation

It's a usual Reformed position, which makes sense. But, Barth argues the scriptures are necessary because they are independent of the community, i.e. rule of faith. That use of "necessary" is pretty loose. But the Church has never been, as a body, without some kind of scriptural grounding, i.e. OT.

Overall, I think the OP is a useful question in helping clarify (or explore) the function of the scriptures.