Could reconciliation with the SSPX arrive with ease?

[Michie]

I find the sspx to be wonderful catholics who refuse to weaken their faith in the historical church or the power of the defined rite of the mass as if they were somehow lacking. Really good example to faithfulness for all of us

I disagree. They seem to be following Martin Luther in spirit whe trying to cling to their own form of Catholicism.

 

[pdudgeon]

"no longer speak of recognizing neither the Second Vatican Council nor the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo Missae,”

"No, we cannot force you to accept the Council"

"In its conclusion, the text argues that if “God wants to come to the effective aid of His Church, which is bleeding from a thousand wounds, he has thousands of different means of doing so. One of these is the official recognition of the SSPX through the Roman authorities.”

I know many on here are not big on prophecy but it there is prophecy that the church after its hard trials will be comfortated a great ecumenical council will be held by a great pope that everyone will accept it and the church will be restored to her former glory and shine like never before... if that is through the sspx i dont know but i think we still have many long roads to walk down before then.

that would be more likely through Peter for everyone to accept it.
and as you say, it's held after, not during the hard trials.

We have a ways to go yet before we reach that goal.

 

[pdudgeon]

I disagree. They seem to be following Martin Luther in spirit while trying to cling to their own form of Catholicism.

agreed.
it's almost as though they are between a rock and a hard place, and can't decide which is more necessary now;
1. to rejoin the church and have that connection legitimized so that they
can once again create apostolic bishops and sustain the order, or
2. to hold on to their beliefs and watch the order collapse upon itself for the physical scarcity of apostolic leadership.
let us fervently hope that they don't chose the third option that Luther did.

 

[mea kulpa]

I disagree. They seem to be following Martin Luther in spirit whe trying to cling to their own form of Catholicism.

You see i think its the other way around. Since vatican 2 the "spirit of the council" has been very similar to the "spirit of martin luther" and protestantism has been on the rise in the church under the "spirit of ecumenism" while the sspx have rejected all that for pure catholic tradition that opposed "the spirit of martin luther" both when he was alive and since

 

[Tallguy88]

I would be happy to see a reunion. Maybe they can open up an SSPX chapel around here, since the diocese does not provide a TLM for us.

 

[mea kulpa]

I would be happy to see a reunion. Maybe they can open up an SSPX chapel around here, since the diocese does not provide a TLM for us.

I can only imagine the influx of faithful into their society if they were regularised spreading out establishing latin masses in every town and village

 

[MikeK]

I find the sspx to be wonderful catholics who refuse to weaken their faith in the historical church or the power of the defined rite of the mass as if they were somehow lacking. Really good example to faithfulness for all of us

I find the SSPX prefer to focus their attention on real or imaginary "wrongs" that others are doing rather than focus their efforts on loving God and neighbor. It isn't the SSPX that's leading the charge to feed the hungry, welcome refugees, and heal the sick.

 

[mea kulpa]

I find the SSPX prefer to focus their attention on real or imaginary "wrongs" that others are doing rather than focus their efforts on loving God and neighbor. It isn't the SSPX that's leading the charge to feed the hungry, welcome refugees, and heal the sick.

The spiritually hungry the spiritual refugees the spiritually sick... if the sspx are correct. We have been handed a snake instead of a fish

 

[Rhamiel]

Pope Francis may be on the verge of deal with Traditionalists.

Leaked internal memo from Society of St. Pius X says Pope won't require acceptance of Vatican II as a prerequisite to coming back, perhaps as personal prelature.

Continued below.
http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2016/04/27/pope-francis-may-be-on-verge-of-deal-with-traditionalists/

I wonder how many will go along with this
a number of people already left the SSPX for the PFSP (Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter) who have Latin Mass and are in communion with Rome
so while a number of SSPX might rejoin normalized relations with the Church, I am sure some will just go full Sedevacantist

if 'not being silent and pointing out the errors' didn't work for Luther, why would it work for him?

but it did work for St. Francis
and St. Ignatius of Loyola
and St. John of the Cross
and St. Teresa of Avila

and many other reformers who worked within the Church

we should no buy into the hype about Luther, he did a lot of harm, but it is not like he was the greatest intellect of his time
nor did he win over droves of people by his personal piety
Lutheranism was spread by stirring up xenophobia over authority being set in Italy, Princes and Merchants wanting more freedom to exploit the poor, and taking advantage of the moral failings of members of Church hierarchy to play with the emotions of the simple folk

I would be happy to see a reunion. Maybe they can open up an SSPX chapel around here, since the diocese does not provide a TLM for us.

they are setting up a seminary in Virginia, not sure when that is going to be done, but that should help bolster the SSPX in America

 

[pdudgeon]

I wonder how many will go along with this
a number of people already left the SSPX for the PFSP (Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter) who have Latin Mass and are in communion with Rome
so while a number of SSPX might rejoin normalized relations with the Church, I am sure some will just go full Sedevacantist



but it did work for St. Francis
and St. Ignatius of Loyola
and St. John of the Cross
and St. Teresa of Avila

and many other reformers who worked within the Church

we should no buy into the hype about Luther, he did a lot of harm, but it is not like he was the greatest intellect of his time
nor did he win over droves of people by his personal piety
Lutheranism was spread by stirring up xenophobia over authority being set in Italy, Princes and Merchants wanting more freedom to exploit the poor, and taking advantage of the moral failings of members of Church hierarchy to play with the emotions of the simple folk


they are setting up a seminary in Virginia, not sure when that is going to be done, but that should help bolster the SSPX in America

yes, and the key there is working within the church, not leaving it to form another church.

 

[tadoflamb]

It seems to me history tells us that any time a group splits off from Rome they need to prepare themselves to be relegated to the annals of obscurity.

SSPX are no different in this manner.

 

[Tallguy88]

From what I've read of the situation, it seems to me that it was Pope John Paul II that forced the SSPX into an irregular status by refusing to budge one inch with Archbishop Lefavbre. He was hoping to outlive him so that the Society would be without bishops to consecrate new priests. So that's why Lefavbre consecrated the other bishops that lead to the formal excommunication. It was an act of desperation to keep the Society alive after his own death. If JP2 had given the concessions Pope Benedict gave in allowing the TLM to be licitly celebrated, there likely would be no rift today.

No pope is perfect, and I think the handling of the SSPX is one of JP2s blemishes. Hopefully Pope Francis will be able to bring them back into a regular ministry within the Church.

 

[Rhamiel]

yes, and the key there is working within the church, not leaving it to form another church.

technically they have not left the Church
they are just disobedient

now it is arguable if that disobedience is just or unjust

I think SSPX has gone over the line in several ways
but it is not the same as leaving the Church

 

[pdudgeon]

technically they have not left the Church
they are just disobedient

now it is arguable if that disobedience is just or unjust

I think SSPX has gone over the line in several ways
but it is not the same as leaving the Church

that's like being sent kicking and screaming to your room for a time out.
The hope is that at some point the need for basic functions will knock some sense into their heads.
or they can continue to be stubborn.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

That is demonstrably false. The Church often uses the word "grave interchangeably with "serious". Please do not resort to preaching zealous error just because you hate the messenger.

CCC 395
CCC 1401
CCC 1457
CCC 1500
CCC 1515
CCC 1583
CCC 1628
CCC 2072
CCC 2080
CCC 2117
CCC 2152
CCC 2183
CCC 2223
CCC 2243
CCC 2254
CCC 2269
CCC 2282
CCC 2291 (in the first case)
CCC 2385
CCC 2498




I didn't state that anyone in the SSPX is or is not in a state of mortal sin. I don't know their hearts. You don't know what any individual SSPXer believes or knows.

The first reference you list to the Catechism of the Catholic Church using the word "grave" is on how Satan can harm people spiritually which directly pertains to mortal sin.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

Perhaps you mean objectively grave matter which does not always equate to a personal mortal sin.

 

[MikeK]

The first reference you list to the Catechism of the Catholic Church using the word "grave" is on how Satan can harm people spiritually which directly pertains to mortal sin.

Read them all, thank the man who shared the truth with you, and appologize for preaching error.

The term "grave" in Catholocism is not only used with regard to mortal sin. You stated otherwise and you were wrong. You're being given an opportunity to man up here, and I think you should take it.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Read them all, thank the man who shared the truth with you, and appologize for preaching error.

The term "grave" in Catholocism is not only used with regard to mortal sin. You stated otherwise and you were wrong. You're being given an opportunity to man up here, and I think you should take it.

In my post, I also said, "Perhaps you mean objectively grave matter which does not always equate to a personal mortal sin."

 

[MikeK]

In my post, I also said, "Perhaps you mean objectively grave matter which does not always equate to a personal mortal sin."

I meant the word grave.

You stated "The Church only uses the word "grave" when it comes to a mortal sin."

I demonstrated your statement to be false.

You're welcome.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I meant the word grave.

You stated "The Church only uses the word "grave" when it comes to a mortal sin."

I demonstrated your statement to be false.

You're welcome.

Okay then, I stand corrected.

 

[pdudgeon]

From what I've read of the situation, it seems to me that it was Pope John Paul II that forced the SSPX into an irregular status by refusing to budge one inch with Archbishop Lefavbre. He was hoping to outlive him so that the Society would be without bishops to consecrate new priests. So that's why Lefavbre consecrated the other bishops that lead to the formal excommunication. It was an act of desperation to keep the Society alive after his own death. If JP2 had given the concessions Pope Benedict gave in allowing the TLM to be licitly celebrated, there likely would be no rift today.

No pope is perfect, and I think the handling of the SSPX is one of JP2s blemishes. Hopefully Pope Francis will be able to bring them back into a regular ministry within the Church.

and why exactly should the Pope budge with a disobedient Archbishop?