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He didn’t need to. He just needed to withdraw grace. Their depraved heart did the rest.
I’m trying to. And trying to not deal with the straw man arguments. So I’m approaching it this way.
You mean the depraved hearts that He gave them? And grace in what form? Preventing them from doing what He wants them to do? How is that grace?
Why are they straw man arguments? You seem to be saying that I'm correct about your position, but you are trying to justify it
You are not discussing in good faith. You keep saying things that are the opposite of what I’m saying. You aren’t trying to honestly understand my position. I think I’m finished now.
How are they the opposite of what you're saying? Maybe they are the fully fleshed out version of what you are saying, and, thankfully, you reject that version of God. But what I'm suggesting to you is that it is a faithful representation of your position, if you will think through your position thoroughly.
No, it’s not. You are either disingenuous, unable to understand, or I’m just bad at explaining. Regardless, I wish you the best.
You're missing the most obvious reason: that you are wrong. If you are wrong, is it a good idea to always leave when it becomes so obvious? Think about it.
You’ve never address any of my actual arguments. That is what you should focus on. Why have you created straw men? Hmmmm
Your argument is that if God used evil men's intentions, then God intended them to sin. And if God did it in the case of the crucifixion of Christ, then He must want every sin that ever has or will happen. But you say God doesn't do evil. I say that is a false view of God, because it contradicts His desire that we not do evil that good may come.
Please tell me which of my points are straw men arguments.
I never said he wanted every sin that ever happened. This is what I mean by a straw man.
We aren’t supposed to do evil. I don’t know how that contradicts anything I’ve said.
See above.
Then how is it that God ordains all sin? Please review the definition I provided above.
You contradicted that by saying that God ordains all that happens, and I think you believe that God ordained all before the world began. If so, then God is making sure everything happens, including the sin. That means He wants the sin to happen--all sin. If God wants all sin to happen, then we are in His will when sinning, and therefore sin is not sin, since we are obeying God when we sin (see definition again).
And this is why I was trying to go step by step, but when I do that, you make a post that doesn’t reflect what I’m saying because you think you are extrapolating my point. Since you aren’t actually interested in understanding, I can’t see why we should continue.
Ok, I'll try to be more patient to let you finish your points without extrapolating.
I believe that God knows the end from the beginning, and that nothing comes to pass outside of His sovereign authority.
Do you believe that God knows all that will transpire between the end and the beginning?
Since "sovereign" includes "authority" in its definition, can you explain what you mean by putting those two words together?
"Ultimate" makes me think that it relates to the final state of things, but not necessarily to the intermediate state.
This is a kind of philosophical toy you're playing with.
Highest authority. None higher than His.
Yes. For instance, I have authority in my home.
Define what you mean by “responsible”.
