Could non humans die before Adam sinned?

[Calypsis4]

Would people eat animal during the Millennium? (yes)

In Rev 21 and 22 as you quoted, does it include animals? (no)

Then what happens to the great white horse that Jesus will ride from heaven to earth at the second coming? Does he cease to exist?

 

[mark kennedy]

Why is there any debate about this matter at all?

23 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

But the day will come when there will be no more death because there will be no more curse.

"...there shall be no more death" Rev. 21:4

"...And there shall be no more curse." Rev. 22:3

Then what happens to the great white horse that Jesus will ride from heaven to earth at the second coming? Does he cease to exist?

I think that was just a vision, kind of like the vision of the boiling pot in the sky in one of the prophets. I do think there will be an abundance of wild life during the thousand year reign of Christ but their fate following the final judgment is anyone's guess. I think the earth will be what it was always intended to be from the beginning, teaming with life and without hurting, killing and death

I tend to agree since the question is really more of a curiosity then anything else. Still it's one of those things that interest people.

 

[juvenissun]

Then what happens to the great white horse that Jesus will ride from heaven to earth at the second coming? Does he cease to exist?

Good question.

I hate to say this, but the only way I could answer is that the horse, just like the "sword", is only a symbol.

Seriously, I always think there will be no animal in the Heaven. I am not sure if it is right. Animals are not supposed to live forever.

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

From some site:

"Some Christians refer to Genesis 1:31—"God saw all that He had made, and it was very good." They think that God would not call a creation that included animal death "very good." However, one must be careful not to rely on our modern, western ideas of what "good" means. The Bible does not tell us the creation was “perfect”. The Hebrew word for good, towb, connotes a practical or economic benefit. Thus, the creation was "very good" for the purpose of achieving God's goals for mankind—namely, to allow rational, morally free agents to come into existence and make free choices to love, obey and be in relationship with Him. Animal death in no way conflicts with that goal."

 

[juvenissun]

Does God intend to let animals have eternal life? I don't think so. So there must be an end to the life of any animal. Before sin, the end of life of an animal was not called "death". That is all needed to answer the OP.

 

[keyarch]

From some site:

"Some Christians refer to Genesis 1:31—"God saw all that He had made, and it was very good." They think that God would not call a creation that included animal death "very good." However, one must be careful not to rely on our modern, western ideas of what "good" means. The Bible does not tell us the creation was “perfect”. The Hebrew word for good, towb, connotes a practical or economic benefit. Thus, the creation was "very good" for the purpose of achieving God's goals for mankind—namely, to allow rational, morally free agents to come into existence and make free choices to love, obey and be in relationship with Him. Animal death in no way conflicts with that goal."

Your post is spot on. Thank you!

 

[dies-l]

If death did not exist prior to Adam's sin:

(a) As Mallon pointed out, the "Tree of Life" in the Creation narrative is a redundancy at best, if not an outright contradiction, and

(b) Adam and Eve would have had no notion of what death was, so the threat of death would have been meaningless.

Therefore, the most logical reading of Gen. 1-3 is that animals died prior to the fall and Adam and Eve saw creatures dying on a regular basis.

The argument that says, "death is bad, and God said that His creation is good" is flawed because it assumes that God shares our distaste for physical death. Yes, I am sad when animals die, especially cute, but there are lots of things that make me sad that God still sees as good.

 

[Faith.Man]

I'm wondering if animals could die before Adam sinned?

Yes. I refer you to the following links then I will continue.

Animal Death Before the Fall: What Does the Bible Say? | Reasons To Believe

No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem

Was There Death Before Adam?

In addition to the scriptural references, we have the evidence of the fossil records. To be clear, I am not arguing in support of the Theory of Evolution. Instead, I am arguing from an Old Earth Creation viewpoint. This Old Earth being previously judged, it's judged state referred to Genesis 1:2.

Genesis 1:2 - The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. [NASB]

This is obviously the result of some prior judgment by God.

Young Earth Creationists (YEC) want to explain away the fossil record through various slights of hand to create doubt. Historically, this is much the same as the established church condemning Copernicus, Galileo, et al. Some of these condemnations of heresy have recently been reversed.

Did Adam's sin effect all living things or just humans?

No. There is no Biblical or extra-Biblical evidence to suggest that animal death is connected with Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned -- [NASB]

Death spread to all men. This verse says nothing about, nor even infers anything about animal death. Of course, we know in the future kingdom that physical death will be destroyed for all.

Isaiah 65:25 - "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD. [NASB]

Isaiah 11:6 - And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. [NASB]

 

[Verticordious]

I'm wondering if animals could die before Adam sinned? Did Adam's sin effect all living things or just humans?

Sin brings about spiritual death, so no, sin does not affect animals since they cannot sin and experience spiritual death. Physical death for both man and animals was always God's plan. How else would we die and experience judgement if there were no death? God is not interested in a bunch of robots, he created the universe as a place for us humans to have an opportunity to either love him or reject him, of our own free will, and then based upon that decision we are judged and sent either Heaven to spend eternity with him, or Hell to spend eternity away from him.

Many times Adam and Christ's actions are compared as direct opposites to each other by Paul in Romans. Adams actions resulted in death, while Christ's actions resulted in life. If Adam's sin had anything to do with physical death, then Christ's sacrifice would necessarily have to reverse it in order for such statements to be true.

Yet, Christians are still dying physically every day, despite their being "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", and despite being "set free from the law of sin and from death" (Romans 8:1-2). Does this mean that God has broken his promise? Is God creating a double jeopardy scenario by punishing both Christ and us for our sins? Did Christ not really take all our punishment upon himself? Of course none of those are true because physical death and sin are unrelated.

This idea of physical death being a punishment/bad/evil is just one example of many bad theologies promoted by YECs that has begun to spread into many other Christian denominations as well. The Bible is a message about our spiritual condition, whether we know God or don't know God. For those who know God and have chosen to love him, physical death is the time at which they finally see him face to face. This was always God's plan, and it is most certainly not a punishment, bad, or evil thing.

 

[Nitescape]

Interesting debate going on here.
Things I havent thought much about.

 

[juvenissun]

Sin brings about spiritual death, so no, sin does not affect animals since they cannot sin and experience spiritual death. Physical death for both man and animals was always God's plan. How else would we die and experience judgement if there were no death? God is not interested in a bunch of robots, he created the universe as a place for us humans to have an opportunity to either love him or reject him, of our own free will, and then based upon that decision we are judged and sent either Heaven to spend eternity with him, or Hell to spend eternity away from him.

Many times Adam and Christ's actions are compared as direct opposites to each other by Paul in Romans. Adams actions resulted in death, while Christ's actions resulted in life. If Adam's sin had anything to do with physical death, then Christ's sacrifice would necessarily have to reverse it in order for such statements to be true.

Yet, Christians are still dying physically every day, despite their being "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", and despite being "set free from the law of sin and from death" (Romans 8:1-2). Does this mean that God has broken his promise? Is God creating a double jeopardy scenario by punishing both Christ and us for our sins? Did Christ not really take all our punishment upon himself? Of course none of those are true because physical death and sin are unrelated.

This idea of physical death being a punishment/bad/evil is just one example of many bad theologies promoted by YECs that has begun to spread into many other Christian denominations as well. The Bible is a message about our spiritual condition, whether we know God or don't know God. For those who know God and have chosen to love him, physical death is the time at which they finally see him face to face. This was always God's plan, and it is most certainly not a punishment, bad, or evil thing.

The end of physical life is not evil. But the death is evil. Because if you die (not just end your earthly life), you will not see God.