Could most modern translations be in error?

[redleghunter]

No, but questions you are evading answering, for some reason.

Not avoiding. It is unnecessary to answer such hyperbole and warped worldview.

 

[redleghunter]

Am i your research slave? Do your own homework. References were already posted here, in post #2:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

Again your sources don't make the argument with the quotes made. As it stands they are plucked out of context quotes not sourced to the original works.

 

[redleghunter]

No, that was a reference to what Augustine, not Basil, believed. And, indeed it does refer to a belief in postmortem purgatory for sinning Christians. But why would a belief in purgatory for Christians necessarily rule out salvation for non Christians, e.g. after a while in hell? And do you have any idea why i included that in my post.

Because none of the fathers who believed in a type of Purgatory believed the damned would receive such Mercy.

 

[ClementofA]

We can trace what early ante-Nicene church fathers believed and especially ones that were from the first and early-second century were almost exclusively ECT.

This bald unsupported claim is merely asserted, like the claim "there is a tooth fairy", without any evidence or proof.

If the translators falsified their translation then all knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures is suspect!

If many translators ignorantly (or purposely) translated the Scriptures into English based on their theological biases, instead of by an objective standard, does that make most or all of our English language Bible translations suspect? Of course it does. Do you blindly believe that these - opinions - called translations of the Scriptures are infallible, inerrant & inspired? Are they like a substitute infallible pontiff to you? Or would that be your pastor?

Furthermore, the original Scriptures are not known to exist. There are many manuscripts of the ancient language texts surviving. These are written in ancient languages, especially Hebrew and Koine Greek. Any translations of these "Scriptures", if you will, into English are merely - opinions - of what these "Scriptures" say. These English opinions, called translations, of the "Scriptures", disagree with each other in numerous points. There is also disagreement re which of the ancient texts of these "Scriptures" are more accurate, as there are many differences between them as well.

Moreover, as to your reference to "all knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures is suspect", a non Christian considering the 100's of denominational divisions & doctrinal differences re interpretation of "Scripture" in Christendom & groups that call themselves "Christian", might wonder if that makes "Scripture" & Christianity "suspect". Without the Holy Spirit, how can one come to a knowledge of the Scriptures? Is that something that comes by man's self effort, or by revelation? Is knowledge of the truth of the Scriptures a "knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures" or through a revelation of the Author of the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit?

The ignorant translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

That is why is see the approach of qouting passages whether they be Greek or Hebrew, Latin or Coptic, Syriac or english, if we say "I want the secondary, or tertiary meaning to be inserted in a text as a translator then what would keep me from doing the same about every text on every theological issue I didn't agree with?

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

Secondly who's to decide that "eternal" is the primary meaning of aion or aionion or olam? That is much debated among scholars.

Not just translators falsify! On this approach copyists and editors would also change texts.

And if they did? We have thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts, in addition to quotes in the early church fathers, to determine what the original Scriptures said. Still, there are differences between them which are debated & considered significant. Most notably related to the debate between the KJV Only advocates & those who prefer more modern versions like the NIV & NASB.

Furthermore, BTW, there are various significant differences in Christianity concerning what books even qualify as being in the Canon of the Scriptures.

This is the ole cutting of one's nose to spite their face routine.

How is that? Do you consider the KJV opinion infallible, inerrant & inspired? Which Canon of the Scriptures do you consider to be "the Sacred Scriptures"? The Roman Catholic Church version, the Eastern Orthodox version, or one of a number of other versions?

 

[ClementofA]

Because none of the fathers who believed in a type of Purgatory believed the damned would receive such Mercy.

This opinion is based on what? Your personal opinion? If so, what is that personal opinion based on?

 

[ClementofA]

Again your sources don't make the argument with the quotes made. As it stands they are plucked out of context quotes not sourced to the original works.

And you want me to provide you with an English language translation that has the context of the Basil quotes i posted? Are you unable to look them up yourself with the references i provided? Or google search the quotes i gave that will lead you to many resources?

 

[ClementofA]

I'm not going on a hunting expedition.

I already did the hunting for you; I provided the pages with the Jerome & Augustine quotes i posted. All you need now is to learn how to do a search for a quote on a page. Just plug a key word from the quote you're looking to find a context for into your device's "find" (search) feature & voila, within seconds you'll have the quote and its context for your reading pleasure.

The first link I opened was a work by Augustine. If you are now claiming Augustine turned out a Universalist you are going to have to point me to the quote.

I am not claiming such. This is about quotes i provided re the subject of how many Christians were universalists in the early church. In post # 2 at the following url are quotes from 4 early church fathers - Basil, Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom - on the subject:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

including those referred to above re Basil & Augustine.

It should be easy enough to find a couple of quotes, the source and provide the context. If you can provide the source I will find the context. This is what I mean.

I already gave the source (reference) for all 4 quotes referred to above. So you can now go "find the context" as you said you will.

What does this have to do with the OP topic of this thread? Perhaps you should take it to the church fathers universalism url above?

 

[redleghunter]

And you want me to provide you with an English language translation that has the context of the Basil quotes i posted? Are you unable to look them up yourself with the references i provided? Or google search the quotes i gave that will lead you to many resources?

You present incomplete sources. For all I know they are made up.

 

[ClementofA]

Getting some background on early Church Father's writings doesn't support the thesis that Theology of hell as everlasting is a corruption of later teaching or corrupted texts.

Nothing you posted refutes the view of the OP that rendering terms such as olam & aion & aionion as "eternal" & "forever" in eschatological contexts re punishment of the wicked is misleading & deceptive, because it injects the theological bias of the translators into the text, thereby changing God's written words.

The short list of alleged church father quotes you posted perpetuate the same mis-translations that are at issue in the OP. You can't legitimately argue against the OP by posting the same mistranslations that occur in your extrabiblical sources. Error doesn't support the truth of error, which in this case would be the same error, both in the so-called Bible translations (better, opinions) & in the alleged, but mistranslated, church fathers' quotes you posted.

If you want to prove any of those quotes support the author being pro endless torments or anti universalism, you'll need to provide the Greek text of the key words to show that they are not the Greek words that are in question as per the OP. Or, if the ancient text is in Latin, or another ancient lingo, provide evidence that the key words in that lingo support your claim.

As Roman Catholic Patristic scholar Illaria Ramelli said:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

Here are a few ECF speaking on eternal punishment.

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . .it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​

My comments above also apply to this out-of-context cherry picked list of alleged comments by some of the early church fathers, while ignoring many others, including universalists. Have they, too, been mistranslated? Yes.

 

[ClementofA]

You present incomplete sources. For all I know they are made up.

See post 87.

How would you know the English translations you read are accurately translated? Of what use are they to you? Why spend your time reading them?

 

[redleghunter]

I am not claiming such. This is about quotes i provided re the subject of how many Christians were universalists in the early church. In post # 2 at the following url are quotes from 4 early church fathers - Basil, Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom - on the subject:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

Your sources are chop job clips from various books which do not fully cite the source. There is absolutely no context.

You should be able to produce at least three quotes within context which supports your view.

 

[redleghunter]

My comments above also apply to this out-of-context cherry picked list of alleged comments by some of the early church fathers, while ignoring many others, including universalists. Have they, too, been mistranslated? Yes.

Pot meet kettle. @Der Alter provided the cited source. I was able to go to each one and find the cited work in context.

 

[redleghunter]

See post 87.

How would you know the English translations you read are accurately translated? Of what use are they to you? Why spend your time reading them?

Context. That is what matters when trying to prove claims. You have to present the evidence in context.

 

[ClementofA]

Context. That is what matters when trying to prove claims. You have to present the evidence in context.

Why do i have to tell you this a second time:

I already did the hunting for you; I provided the pages with the Jerome & Augustine quotes i posted. All you need now is to learn how to do a search for a quote on a page. Just plug a key word from the quote you're looking to find a context for into your device's "find" (search) feature & voila, within seconds you'll have the quote and its context for your reading pleasure.

And why do you keep refusing to answer questions posed to you:

How would you know the English translations you read are accurately translated? Of what use are they to you? Why spend your time reading them?

I already gave the source (reference) for all 4 quotes referred to above. So you can now go "find the context" as you said you will.

What does this have to do with the OP topic of this thread? Perhaps you should take it to the church fathers universalism url above?

Are you just trolling?

 

[ClementofA]

Context. That is what matters when trying to prove claims. You have to present the evidence in context.

When, unlike you, two Patristic scholars who have read the church fathers in the original languages agree that Basil said the majority of Christians believed in a limited duration of punishment in hell, do you think that they might be correct & that carries some weight?

 

[redleghunter]

When, unlike you, scholars who have read the church fathers in the original languages agree that Basil said the majority of Christians believed in a limited duration of punishment in hell, that carries weight.

It’s easy. Find the source like “Against Heresies” cite the book and chapter and I’ll find the actual translated work.

There are several translations done. New Advent has a very good library of ECF translations.

 

[ClementofA]

It’s easy. Find the source like “Against Heresies” cite the book and chapter and I’ll find the actual translated work.

There are several translations done. New Advent has a very good library of ECF translations.

See post # 94.

 

[redleghunter]

See post # 94.

Ok you are not going to seriously engage and present the evidence here. Your links are to blogs which quote snippets of ECF quotes and make bold assertions.

It’s a big nothingburger.

 

[ClementofA]

Ok you are not going to seriously engage and present the evidence here. Your links are to blogs which quote snippets of ECF quotes and make bold assertions.

It’s a big nothingburger.

I already posted the following to you. No "blogs" there:

Only one opened and it did have quotes from some early theologians. However, they were just quotes without the source of the quote provided.

Didn't you see the context here, for example:

http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/augenchiridion/enchiridion97-122.html

and here:

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

from the source i gave you:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

which also gave references to the other quotes.

 

[ClementofA]

Pot meet kettle. @Der Alter provided the cited source. I was able to go to each one and find the cited work in context.

And be self deceived by blindly believing that whatever is written there is a faithful translation of the church fathers, including the many mistranslations where you read "eternal" & "forever". BTW, in responding to the deceitful Barnabas quote earlier in this thread, i responded with the Greek texts. Der Alter didn't do that. He just provided a bunch of misleading quotes.