Could most modern translations be in error?

Uber Genius

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That reminded me of this.....
Yep. See...https://www.tms.edu/m/msj19.1.pdf
pages 19ff. D.A. Carson explains why exegesis of any passage of scripture should avoid what seems to be the centerpiece of this threads universalist argument.

While we do want to recognize the lexical range of Aion and similar terms we see that the context of those words if changed to mean "temporary" as our interlocutors suggest, would also include Christians were with God in His new kingdom "TEMPORARILY."

These are not difficult to assess unless we see some uncharitability in engaging the discussion. When rhetorical flourish takes the place of engaging reasons for and against a particular thesis it is time to go.

I will let you continue the fight as I feel as if my words are being twisted as much as the words of original authors of the Biblical texts by the universalists camp. These are not the best arguments. And I do think there are reasonable proponents of the view, just not here.
 
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ClementofA

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Yep. See...https://www.tms.edu/m/msj19.1.pdf
pages 19ff. D.A. Carson explains why exegesis of any passage of scripture should avoid what seems to be the centerpiece of this threads universalist argument.

Seems...to be? Some people imagine that the tooth fairy "seems" to exist.

It's quite pathetic when people's viewpoints are repeatedly defended by mudslinging & misrepresentation of others' views while avoiding - or failing to comprehend - the arguments made. Which is not rare with anti-universalists. Most of them are misinformed re universalism.

While we do want to recognize the lexical range of Aion and similar terms we see that the context of those words if changed to mean "temporary" as our interlocutors suggest, would also include Christians were with God in His new kingdom "TEMPORARILY."

This twisted understanding illustrates my comment above. See, for example, post #4 in this thread.
 
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ClementofA

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We can trace what early ante-Nicene church fathers believed and especially ones that were from the first and early-second century were almost exclusively ECT.

This bald unsupported claim is merely asserted, like the claim "there is a tooth fairy", without any evidence or proof.


If the translators falsified their translation then all knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures is suspect!

If many translators ignorantly (or purposely) translated the Scriptures into English based on their theological biases, instead of by an objective standard, does that make most or all of our English language Bible translations suspect? Of course it does. Do you blindly believe that these - opinions - called translations of the Scriptures are infallible, inerrant & inspired? Are they like a substitute infallible pontiff to you? Or would that be your pastor?

Furthermore, the original Scriptures are not known to exist. There are many manuscripts of the ancient language texts surviving. These are written in ancient languages, especially Hebrew and Koine Greek. Any translations of these "Scriptures", if you will, into English are merely - opinions - of what these "Scriptures" say. These English opinions, called translations, of the "Scriptures", disagree with each other in numerous points. There is also disagreement re which of the ancient texts of these "Scriptures" are more accurate, as there are many differences between them as well.

Moreover, as to your reference to "all knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures is suspect", a non Christian considering the 100's of denominational divisions & doctrinal differences re interpretation of "Scripture" in Christendom & groups that call themselves "Christian", might wonder if that makes "Scripture" & Christianity "suspect". Without the Holy Spirit, how can one come to a knowledge of the Scriptures? Is that something that comes by man's self effort, or by revelation? Is knowledge of the truth of the Scriptures a "knowledge gained through revelation of the scriptures" or through a revelation of the Author of the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit?

The ignorant translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

That is why is see the approach of qouting passages whether they be Greek or Hebrew, Latin or Coptic, Syriac or english, if we say "I want the secondary, or tertiary meaning to be inserted in a text as a translator then what would keep me from doing the same about every text on every theological issue I didn't agree with?

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

Secondly who's to decide that "eternal" is the primary meaning of aion or aionion or olam? That is much debated among scholars.

Not just translators falsify! On this approach copyists and editors would also change texts.

And if they did? We have thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts, in addition to quotes in the early church fathers, to determine what the original Scriptures said. Still, there are differences between them which are debated & considered significant. Most notably related to the debate between the KJV Only advocates & those who prefer more modern versions like the NIV & NASB.

Furthermore, BTW, there are various significant differences in Christianity concerning what books even qualify as being in the Canon of the Scriptures.

This is the ole cutting of one's nose to spite their face routine.

How is that? Do you consider the KJV opinion infallible, inerrant & inspired? Which Canon of the Scriptures do you consider to be "the Sacred Scriptures"? The Roman Catholic Church version, the Eastern Orthodox version, or one of a number of other versions?
 
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Hillsage

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I'm not an entirely KJV only guy, I've noticed many more mistranslations in the niv and one or 2 other translations, even the new kings james when using my concordance. I will be the first to say that I have not read them all so I can't say with certainty that they all have an Anti-Christian agenda.

Back when I was coming to my conclusions on the 'new' NIV translation I too found enough things to support my own present POV. Things like those who signed their 'hireling' contracts based upon doctrinal agreements, as opposed to purely scholastic qualification to pursue the truth. And then there was the homosexual who was hired for his scholastic aptitude, but obvious disregard for his egregious sexual life. A life I believe which would have severely affected his ability to even be led of the Holy Spirit. At the end of my pursuit for 'truth no matter where it leads' I came to the conclusion that it is the Nearly Inspired Translation IMO. I do still keep it in my 'primary translations base' on the computer for comparative scriptural study purposes, but seldom feel it adds anything truly spiritual.

You say I only give my opinion but as you trust the makers of your bible and their commentary, I trust the commentators 've read and my "opinions" are just as substantiated as yours, whether you have a Bible in your hand or not. I respect your opinion and am not dead set on mine, thinking I am the end all be all source for the truth. I just live by the precept that everyone can have their own opinion and dis agree with me, but I wont change what I've come to learn until there is real proof that I may be wrong.
But you never substantiated 'your opinion' at all. I did, even though you disagreed, which I agree is your prerogative. It does make me wonder what/who does then 'qualify' in your unsubstantiated opinion?

Here is a question for you? If you believe these scholars who I imagine say they are believers, then isn't the statement that the bible has errors a direct contradiction to their belief?
First off, you never answered my question, but now want me to answer yours???? I think that it would behoove you to prove to me that 'you can admit you can't prove your statement which I challenged scripturally', or provide a source of support for your opinion other than your opinion. I believe that's fair IMO. But, as to your 'above question', I absolutely do not think their statement is contrary to their belief. I think their belief is absolutely the truth and they know it. It is the nominal church who is deceived by the spirit of religion to think the bible is infallible. That is my opinion based upon many years of research without an blind allegiance to 'the church' but a very strong allegiance to God and the belief that his Spirit can still lead and guide us into the truth today as 'scripture' mandates.

If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God
Says 'man', not 'the bible'.

and it is that word that guides us,
Say those whose true trinity is the Father Son Holy Bible IMO.

Isn't saying that it has errors actually saying that God is fallible and leaves us to make our on conclusions as to who he is and he what he wants?
Again 'says man', where does the bible state such a thing? My second question for your next post to have an answer for; should the following verse be in the bible or not? Either answer pretty much supports my position, I believe.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

If this verse is NOT supposed to be in the bible, the bible has errors. And if this verse IS supposed to be in the bible, then the bible has errors. And infallibility by definition is the inability to be wrong. And those who convince them selves otherwise, lead me to believe that their theological position is really more of a mental condition IMO.
Going a step further, Isn't the statement saying that if God's living word, something directly inspired by him can be wrong than God can be wrong?
I don't agree with your logic at all. The only 'inspired word' that was ever written, was to the 'original autograph', or the one's who dictated OR who's pen actually wrote the original writing. The fact that beyond 'that point' no one even has the scriptural basis to make such unscriptural claims as 'infallibility' IMO. My source reference being 'the bible' and my understanding of Jer. 8:8.

And if that were possible would anything he made exist? The bible says that Jesus is the word.
No, it does not. Man has taught you that twisted understanding. Prove me wrong. ;) But don't forget to still answer those 'two' outstanding questions also please.
 
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Der Alte

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<SW>I have to disagree. Not just because I don't agree that its just the universalists that say that but also because its said to turn a Godly command into an unGodly one. I believe that the new translations are used to twist the scripture into wickedness told under the guise of it being God's infallible word so people will not only accept it but will never know what God really commanded us to do, therefor becoming one of the false Christians that Jesus said he never knew. Also there are some translations that actually just remove verses. For example a verse in Acts I believe. I cant remember the chapter but i know that some translations skip blatantly from verse 25 to verse 27. The verse they skip was when a disciple explains to a eunuch how to be baptized, the part where He says that you need to believe Jesus is the son of God is omitted.<end>
You have the wrong information. One of my Greek professors, Dr. Roger Omanson, was on the NIV translation committee. He was a godly man. He often mentioned the care the committee exercised in providing the best translation possible. And I don't appreciate the broad brush condemnation I read here with, I might add, no, zero, none evidence.
.....The word eunuch only occurs 5 times in one chapter of Acts 8:27, 34, 36, 38, 39. The verse that does not appear in modern versions is 37 because there is no credible manuscript evidence for the verse. The textual apparatus does not show any variations for that verse.
You seem to be confusing the KJV with the the inerrant word of God.
.....Here is the spurious verse. Philip does not explain baptism to the eunuch. Philip is quoted as saying "If you believe with all your heart you may [be baptized.]" The eunuch is quoted as saying "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The KJV translators may have had some manuscripts which are no longer extant.
 
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Der Alte

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Why the need for qualification? I'm not the least familiar with Latin so I rely on Ramelli's interpretation. Your attempt to minimize "many" to "some" is obfuscation.
When did Ilaria Ramelli become the end all, be all authority on translating the Greek NT? Versus e.g. the many decades and many scholars who produced BDAG.
 
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High Fidelity

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There's always going to be an element of disconnection between translations and source material.

No translation is pure and we very often see that claimed of a certain translation; the fact remains that no translation is pure and therefore a translation itself cannot be a baseline for accuracy, only the source material can.
 
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ClementofA

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When did Ilaria Ramelli become the end all, be all authority on translating the Greek NT?

The post you were replying to said "Latin", not Greek. And was referring to a remark by a church father, not the New Testament (NT).
 
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redleghunter

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"As for where they came from, the evidence suggests they were prepared beforehand by the vicious and insidiously stupid Emperor Justinian, who liked to play theologian, who saw the Church as a pillar of imperial unity, and who took implacable umbrage at dissident theologies...."
What scholarly language.
"East or West, all Christians are burdened with the absurdities of Christian imperial history. But any conception of orthodoxy that obliges one to grant the title of “saint” to a murderous thug like Justinian while denying it to a man as holy as Origen is obviously—indeed ludicrously—self-refuting. And one does not defend tradition well by making it appear not only atrociously unjust, but utterly ridiculous."
Did a grown up write the above?
 
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Hillsage

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What scholarly language.

Did a grown up write the above?
Come on Redleg, did a Christian write the above? This is not the 'Christ in you' kind of answer I know you're capable of. Several of your later posts seem to be just beneath what you know Jesus would have all of us, to be striving a bit more for. I understand disagreeing. I ought to, I appear to have a masters degree in that department, certainly not limited to 'this one doctrine'. And since it's obvious we all don't agree here, let's at least try to work on cultivating the fruit that would make 'the world who is watching Christianity' a tiny bit jealous of Christian character toward one another in spite of our never ending disagreements. We're never all going to be doctrinal twin brothers, but no doctrinal difference can change the fact that we are brothers, if we truly are. :)
 
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Oldmantook

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When did Ilaria Ramelli become the end all, be all authority on translating the Greek NT? Versus e.g. the many decades and many scholars who produced BDAG.
You have your favorites. I have mine. Quite simple isn't it, Der Alter? Not to mention post #128 where Clement notes it appears you never even bothered to carefully read my reply.
 
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Oldmantook

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Because he is right.

Definition of many
more play \ˈmȯr\; most play \ˈmōst\
1: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number
  • worked for manyyears

  • the many advantages of an education
2: being one of a large but indefinite number
  • many a man

  • many another student

So ten of one hundred could be "Many"

Further as I have pointed out elsewhere the ante-Nicene church fathers, especially those closest to the completion of the NT were ECT.

Finally, this is exactly the question and to misrepresent the need for clarification as "obfuscation," is nothing but an attempt to win the argument through ad hominem.

That's what the universalists need, more propaganda.
More ECT falsehood. Did you not read my comment? Ramellia who is a scholar on ancient languages/texts stated that in the Latin text which Augustine wrote "many" means "most." Are you familiar with Latin or resorting to just cutting and pasting? Unless you are familiar with Latin, I have no reason whatsoever to give your reply any credence.
 
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Oldmantook

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Considering the doctrine was condemned, and it would take 'a great many' to do that, leads to other plausible conclusions.
And exactly just what was condemned? If the doctrine was condemned, then why wasn't Gregory of Nyssa also condemned for believing the same thing? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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Uber Genius

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More ECT falsehood. Did you not read my comment? Ramellia who is a scholar on ancient languages/texts stated that in the Latin text which Augustine wrote "many" means "most." Are you familiar with Latin or resorting to just cutting and pasting? Unless you are familiar with Latin, I have no reason whatsoever to give your reply any credence.
Read it and called you out for your strawman.

I haven't even weighed in on my position qua ECT only shown the fallacious reasoning on this thread. So your 0 for 2 so far. I'm on record as saying that universal salvation is a "live option" twice above, but you don't seem to engage people's actual words just the ones you stuff in their mouths.

The reason you don't want to point to scholars is that the large majority of scholars since Jerome have sided with ECT.

But ECT doesn't argue that fact which would be vox populi fallacy.

Stick with the exegesis.
 
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Uber Genius

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Method for arguing the universalist inference usually focuses on Colosians 1:16,19,20.

It points to Christ creating all things and then reconciling all things.

Then it focuses on universal sin being defeated on the cross with universal not partial defeat of sin.

Next it examines redemption periscopes mostly found in Pauline texts.

Finally it highlights that there are possible time-limits in the lexical range that allow some passages to be less clearly in favor of ECT.

Translation conspiracies, and proof-texting are NOT part of these arguments.

Proof-texts can be offered in support of ECT, Anihilationism, and Universalism.

Proper exegesis off all passages followed by careful reasoning and examining all 3 inferences to see which one gives the most reasonable account of all the Biblical data is the approach scholars take.
 
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redleghunter

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More ECT falsehood. Did you not read my comment? Ramellia who is a scholar on ancient languages/texts stated that in the Latin text which Augustine wrote "many" means "most." Are you familiar with Latin or resorting to just cutting and pasting? Unless you are familiar with Latin, I have no reason whatsoever to give your reply any credence.
The credence is in the qualifier. If Augustine writing in the 5th century AD was referring to bishops as 'the many' (because the lay folks did not matter on theological issues) then UR would have been church doctrine and the works of UR theologians not rejected by the church catholic.

Now I will offer that it is plausible Augustine was speaking of many bishops who externally were orthodox on the issue of eternal punishment, but secretly either held to UR or were in the camp which always held hope all would be reconciled.
 
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redleghunter

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And exactly just what was condemned? If the doctrine was condemned, then why wasn't Gregory of Nyssa also condemned for believing the same thing? Inquiring minds want to know.
St. Gregory of Nyssa accepted the idea of apocatastasis from Origen. However, this part of St. Gregory's writings has been unequivocally rejected by the subsequent Church Fathers:

  • St. Varsanofios the Great, criticizing the doctrine of apocatastasis, when asked about St. Gregory's opinion, has answered: "do not think that people, though also saints, could completely understand all depths of God... Even if a saint speaks about such opinions, you will not find that he confirmed the words as though had the statement from above, but that they resulted from the doctrine of his former teachers, and he, trusting their knowledge of them, did not inquire of God whether it was true."citation needed
  • St. Herman of Constantinople has also expressed a negative opinion of the doctrine, but he supposes that the works of St. Gregory have been damaged by Origenists: "those who liked that absurd idea, as if for demons and for people who will be subjected to eternal punishment, is possible to expect the discontinuance... they have taken his clean and sensible works and have added the dark and disastrous poison of Origen's
  • St. Mark of Ephesus, after citing St. Gregory, exclaims: "Are we wrong when we do not believe those words of St. Gregory of Nyssa, considering them forgeries, or, even if they are original, to not accept as contradictory to Scripture and to the general dogma?"
  • St. Maximus the Confessor, rejecting an Origenistic interpretation of apocatastasis, considered that St. Gregory used this term "in sense of restoration of cognitive forces of the man in that condition of the correct relation to truth."
  • St. Photius the Great has expressed the Church's general interpretation in one phrase: "that in works of St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, where restoration is mentioned, it is not accepted by the Church."
It was through Origen that the Platonist doctrine of the apokatastasis passed to St. Gregory of Nyssa, and simultaneously to St. Jerome, at least during the time that St. Jerome was an Origenist. It is certain, however, that St. Jerome understands it only of the baptized: "In restitutione omnium, quando corpus totius ecclesiæ nunc dispersum atque laceratum, verus medicus Christus Jesus sanaturus advenerit, unusquisque secundum mensuram fidei et cognitionis Filii Dei . . . suum recipiet locum et incipiet id esse quod fuerat" (Comment. in Eph., iv, 16; P.G., XXVI, col. 503). Everywhere else St. Jerome teaches that the punishment of the devils and of the impious, that is of those who have not come to the Faith, shall be eternal. (See Petavius, Theol. dogmat. De Angelis, 111, 112.) The "Ambrosiaster" on the other hand seems to have extended the benefits of redemption to the devils, (In Eph., iii, 10; P.L., XVII, col. 382), yet the interpretation of the "Ambrosiaster" on this point is not devoid of difficulty. [See Petavius, p. 111; also, Turmel, Histoire de la théologie positive, depuis l'origine, etc. (Paris, 1904) 187.]

From the moment, however, that anti-Origenism prevailed, the doctrine of the apokatastasis was definitely abandoned. St. Augustine protests more strongly than any other writer against an error so contrary to the doctrine of the necessity of grace. See, especially, his "De gestis Pelagii", I: "In Origene dignissime detestatur Ecclesia, quod et iam illi quos Dominus dicit æterno supplicio puniendos, et ipse diabolus et angeli eius, post tempus licet prolixum purgati liberabuntur a poenis, et sanctis cum Deo regnantibus societate beatitudinis adhærebunt." Augustine here alludes to the sentence pronounced against Pelagius by the Council of Diospolis, in 415 (P.L., XLIV, col. 325). He moreover recurs to the subject in many passages of his writings, and in City of God XXI sets himself earnestly to prove the eternity of punishment as against the Platonist and Origenist error concerning its intrinsically purgatorial character. We note, further, that the doctrine of the apokatastasis was held in the East, not only by St. Gregory of Nyssa, but also by St. Gregory of Nazianzus as well; "De seipso", 566 (P.G., XXXVII, col. 1010), but the latter, though he asks the question, finally decides neither for nor against it, but rather leaves the answer to God. Köstlin, in the "Realencyklopädie für protestantische Theologie" (Leipzig, 1896), I, 617, art. "Apokatastasis", names Diodorus of Tarsus and Theodore of Mopsuestia as having also held the doctrine of apokatastasis, but cites no passage in support of his statement. In any case, the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
 
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Oldmantook

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Read it and called you out for your strawman.

I haven't even weighed in on my position qua ECT only shown the fallacious reasoning on this thread. So your 0 for 2 so far. I'm on record as saying that universal salvation is a "live option" twice above, but you don't seem to engage people's actual words just the ones you stuff in their mouths.

The reason you don't want to point to scholars is that the large majority of scholars since Jerome have sided with ECT.

But ECT doesn't argue that fact which would be vox populi fallacy.

Stick with the exegesis.
Why didn't you answer my question? Are you familiar with Latin? Yes or no? If you're not then I suggest you stop showing your ignorance of the language since I have no reason to believe you versus Ramelli who is a scholar in Latin and ancient texts and has studied/published extensively on this subject. The fact is, there is no other scholar who has studied/published on the subject as much a Ramelli, thus you give me no reason at all to side with your view.
 
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Oldmantook

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The credence is in the qualifier. If Augustine writing in the 5th century AD was referring to bishops as 'the many' (because the lay folks did not matter on theological issues) then UR would have been church doctrine and the works of UR theologians not rejected by the church catholic.

Now I will offer that it is plausible Augustine was speaking of many bishops who externally were orthodox on the issue of eternal punishment, but secretly either held to UR or were in the camp which always held hope all would be reconciled.
You suppose much don't you? There is no credence/qualifier in my citation, yet you take the liberty to insert one just to support your view. I find that it makes for an exceedingly weak argument but if you want to believe that then so be it.
 
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ClementofA

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Proper exegesis off all passages followed by careful reasoning and examining all 3 inferences to see which one gives the most reasonable account of all the Biblical data is the approach scholars take.

Yet "scholars" disagree among themselves on many issues, including this topic.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).
 
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